Weak flame when both burners lit - bg14

Hey, I'm looking for some advice or experience of others to figure out if I have a problem with my brutus set-up. I'm using BG14 burners for both HLT and MT, each burner is controlled by a LOVE temperature controller, honeywell solenoid with a standing pilot, marshall low pressure regulator, and low pressure orifice valve from brewershardware.com. A few questions or concerns:

1. My flames don't seem to be incredibly strong when one burner is running. The burner is pretty quiet and the flames are only about 1" tall at most. Is this typical? I've tried drilling out the original orifices to 3/32" (i think that's the recommended size) but it didn't seem to make a difference.

2. when both my HLT and MT are running, the flames drop down to amost nothing. Am i limited by the amount of gas that can go through the regulator?

I haven't done any testing to see how long it takes to boil a full 10 gallon batch, so maybe I'm just worrying and it's a kick butt system, but it just doesn't feel like there's power there.

Thanks for the insight and experiences you can provide!

Brent

I don't have a lot of experience with the valves and pilot system you're running, but on my stand I have 3 burners fed from a trunk (built into the stand) and I have a 15PSI regulator coming straight off the propane bottle and can power all 3 burners just fine (2 BG12's and a BG14). I would suspect that if you're using a low pressure regulator (as you mentioned) you're not feeding enough pressure to power both of the BG14's. Is your regulator a standard 10 PSI, and if so I'd probably go get yourself a 30 PSI regulator to ensure you've got enough pressure for both of those burners?

The BG14 is a high pressure burner isn't it? I assume you're running low pressure for the gas valves but maybe it's too low.

What you need to look at is gas volume. Regulators generally have a BTU rating which will make it easy to judge if you are getting enough gas volume for your burners. The regulator must have a BTU rating equal to all of the burners that will be running simultaneously down steam.

Bobby_M is correct, that is a high pressure burner, so the low pressure is probably the biggest problem. Volume as i stated above will only help keep the same flame with both burners running, if one is already too low you need higher pressure..... Which won't work with the rest of your setup. Might need to look at different burners that will work on low pressure.

So, any immediate suggestions for burners? I thought I saw many instances of people using these burners with a low pressure propane system simply by changing out the "jet" orifice for a larger size to do exactly what you mentioned, deliver more fuel, but i guess I'd like the system to work, so researching other options could be beneficial.

Thanks for the input too!

Unfortunately my main experience is with high pressure burners and in particular forge burners for black smith work. the over size orifices should help get that burner working with the lower pressure..... I would look at you regulator(s) for volume ratings before replacing burners. I have a feeling the regulator is the choke point here.

If nobody has direct experience with your combo, you have to get into debug mode. Try incrementally connecting the burner closer (more directly) to the LP tank. First remove the solenoid valve, then try connecting to a standard BBQ reg, then directly to the tank using the valve on the tank to gradually increase the flame.
If none of those start producing a jaw dropping flame (which these burners are capable of), it could be that tank (or tank valve) itself. There is an anti-freeflow mechanism in the valve that can get stuck. It is usually just a small ball bearing that free floats and plugs a hole when there is too much flow. This type of device can also be in the hose or reg as well- lawyer proofing them I guess.

It could be the combo "orifice valve" as well, but since none of your burners work, they would all have to be defective, which is not likely.

kdchampion said:

honeywell solenoid with a standing pilot, marshall low pressure regulator
Brent

Click to expand...

Like others have suggested, you need to check flows. I have only briefly looked at some attempts to automate gas burneres, but several were having trouble because they were attempting to use solenoids that were not capable of handling the flow required for high BTU burners. I also remember cases where they had high/low pressure mismatched parts. A 200k btu at xx psi valve will not flow 200k at lower pressures, and may not work at all if it is a diaphram actuated valve.

Thanks for the help! I'll definitely look into the different flows and pressures. At one point in time, I didn't have the low pressure (0.5psi) marshal regulator and the burners were pretty spectacular. So, I know the burners work.

I'm also building a home climbing wall, so this project is kind of on the back burner, but I still think about it and get to mess around with it every once in a while, so thus the questions but not much trouble shooting.

Life's too short to not have too many hobbies!

Including some details and photos of your setup, possibly in a new thread, could get you better responses. I am still not sure if you are using LP or NG; what model valves you are using, what pipe diameters/lengths you have, whether you have solenoid valves and a wingnut valve at the burner, what your plumbing looks like, etc.

Here is a thread I was involved in that is very similar to yours where the solenoid valves were brought up. It sounds very similar to your setup. The guy stripped his solenoids out for testing, which is a good debug plan.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/lp-burners-20g-batches-215188/index6.html

Kladue mentioned the differences in solenoid valve operating pressures. The 5-10psi models will not actuate/open fully at lower pressure. Check the specs on your solenoid. They should be 0-5psi or similar. If the info isn't available, he mentioned testing functionality by powering the solenoid, and then blowing (with your mouth) through the valve. If the valve fully opens with lung pressure, it should open with 0.5psi as well.

A couple things to check, if you do not have the green colored tank adapter and have the black version, change to the higher flow green unit. If the flow of high pressure gas into the marshall regulator is too low then you will experience small flames. Have you checked the honeywell valve internal regulator spring and see if it is set for NG or LP , that will limit flame size as they usually come setup for NG and operate at less than one third the pressure for LP use. If you bought the valve there should have been a bag of small parts for conversion (heavier spring and different colored retainer) for conversion from (.16 PSI) NG to higher pressure (.5 PSI)LP service. Here is a link to the manual for information needed for parts swap http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/PackedLit/69-0234.pdf

Update:

Here's some more background info that i left off in the beginning:
- Using low pressure propane
- BG-14 burners
- Honeywell VR8200A2132 valves with corresponding pilot valve and low pressure propane conversion orifice from Brewers Hardware
- Marshall 290 series regulator
- Controlling temps with Love controller

Answers to some questions:
1. I do have the green propane tank connector
2. I do have the correct spring and retainer in (LP conversion kit)
3. I've tried to adjust the internal regulator on the solenoid valve (i'm assuming that means just tighten down the spring more) and there was no change in the flames.
4. I tried heating some water and it took me about 1.5 hours to get 13 gallons up to 175ºF.
5. I do have one burner that's not going through a solenoid and I had really small flames on that one as well and I tried anywhere from the original orifice size up to 1/8" i believe and there was no difference in the flame.

That puts me at only a few different options...
- Regulator wasn't set correctly by manufacturer
- Something wrong with the propane tank (gonna test this tonight)
- Any other ideas?

I've seen searching on the forum this morning and have read of many other people with this exact same set-up and they love it.

Thanks again for the help!

Is it possible that the propane tank safety valve is activating and preventing full delivery of propane.
Check this info out: EXCESS FLOW SAFTY VALVE RESET PROCEDURE

P-J said:

Is it possible that the propane tank safety valve is activating and preventing full delivery of propane.
Check this info out: EXCESS FLOW SAFTY VALVE RESET PROCEDURE

Click to expand...

I had to do that one time. I thought the tank was almost empty till I picked it up. So disconnected and relieved the pressure. Back to blazin

Thanks P-J. Other folks have mentioned this before but the link is appreciated.

Now, if I can maybe relate this to the typical single tier brutus system:
1. Turn all valves to off
2. Disconnect regulator from LP tank and wait for a while
3. Reconnect regulator to LP tank
4. Open valve slowly to allow gas pipeline to fill with gas
5. light the burner (s)

Do you think the fact that I'm going from LP tank pressure to a 0.5psi regulator might be making it easier to trip this shutoff mechanism?

I did some reading about the excess flow valve and I should also check for leaks in the system as this could cause the same problem. From the reading, the valve (spring) closes every time the propane tank is opened, but once the pressure has equalized, the valve opens back up...so, a leak in the system could provide the same low gas flow results.

If it was a leak, it would have to be a fairly large leak. I've had the issue using a brush burner torch and chose to "fix" it my way.



As shown, the check valve is located in the regulator tank connector. I just drilled out the opening enough to remove the ball and spring mechanism. Problem gone.

So, I did the whole reset thing and it didn't seem to make a large difference. I took off the green tank adapter and the ball that's in there seems to have a lot of movement room (i.e. i can jiggle it around). I'm thinking maybe this isn't a good thing, possibly the spring broke and there's nothing stopping the ball from creating the excess flow event.

I'm gonna go find a replacement connector, but if anyone's near theirs...can you jiggle it and see if it makes noise?

Thanks!

I swapped mine out for a POL connector. No leak safety check, but no valve to throttle flow either . I had trouble with the green connection supporting 2 BG14s. So frustrating.

Ok, well first of all, thanks for all the help and advice. Second of all, i'm a moron! So I determined the excess flow valve wasn't the issue as I could hear it both click on and click off. So, I decided to take a closer look at my supply line as it had a this valve feature on it (I was using the lines from the recommended bg14 regulator from Northern Brewer


The valve I'm refering to is just to the left of the regulator. Well, turns out this is what the inside of the line looks like at that valve (sorry for the bad picture, but it shows the story)



I'm a moron for not looking at this before. I put a regular pigtail with green ACME connector and BAM, my burners are amazing!

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.
Brent

The pic is kinda blurry. Is there just one pin hole in it like an orifice?

Yep, that's all there was! So, those who suggested looking at flow restrictions were correct.

KD, this is a blast from the past I imagine, but I'd like to clarify what you're working with. I've been reading a lot about these BG14 burners and my head's spinning. So you're using BG14 burners, with a VR8200 to control it, the 11" LP valve/orifice combo, with an 11" WC regulator? And the burner fires awesome?

splobucket said:

KD, this is a blast from the past I imagine, but I'd like to clarify what you're working with. I've been reading a lot about these BG14 burners and my head's spinning. So you're using BG14 burners, with a VR8200 to control it, the 11" LP valve/orifice combo, with an 11" WC regulator? And the burner fires awesome?

Click to expand...

The OP never really gave enough info to ascertain what actually fixed his problem. It wasn't until much later that he fessed up he had an additional regulator in the mix. From skimming back over the thread, it seems like he was putting an initial regulator (~20 psi) meant to power a normal burner, in front of the low pressure regulator for his reduced pressure setup. That would all be fine if his secondary low pressure reg was expecting ~20psi. However, I suspect his low pressure reg was expecting full LP tank pressure, which is why he never got full flow with it running after the 20psi reg. I don't want to confuse things by explaining why with Swagelok CV specs, but it is simply a matter of regs expecting a certain pressure in to get an expected max flow out. A reduced input pressure will reduce the max flow out.

My take on the whole pilot controlled burner valve is that it adds unnecessary complexity. They are meant for unmanned operation where an unlit burner will cause a catastrophe. This is not the case for brew rigs sitting in the driveway. Even if you are not standing right there to see that the pilot went out, or leave for ~15 min, nothing catastrophic will happen. Using a standing pilot, or a stand-alone electric pilot, and a separate gas solenoid valve will work as good, or better.

Additionally, if you remove the combo pilot/valve nonsense, you are not restricted to the low pressures they work with. The BG14 burners/orifices actually work better with higher pressures since it enhances the venturi effect at the orifice to pull more air in. The Honeywell valve is another one of those cultural anomalies that persists because some pioneer used it- much like the proliferation of the inline version of the mag pumps everyone uses, even though the center inlet is a superior solution in every way (End rant to try to de-popularize the inline pump).