Can a kit satisfy my oenophilic wife?

My wife is a wine snob. There, I said it. Having grown up with a father who appreciates and buys good wine, and having worked for some of the largest wine distributors in the world, she knows good wine and will turn up her nose at those she doesn't like. Me, I'm pretty happy with a bottle of swill from the grocery store. I like wine just fine, but generally go for beer instead.

I've been brewing beer for a while and was just reading the latest Northern Brewer catalog and eyeing all of the wine kits. My question is how good are these? Do you think they could satisfy a wine snob? I'm willing to do the work to learn about how to make wine, put money/effort into anything I need to make it better, and have the patience to wait 2 years to drink it, but I'm concerned that she'd be disappointed at the end.

Is there a better way to make wine than using a kit? I've got all of the equipment and chemicals/nutrients already (from beer and mead), so do I need a kit?

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

chicagobrew said:

My wife is a wine snob. There, I said it. Having grown up with a father who appreciates and buys good wine, and having worked for some of the largest wine distributors in the world, she knows good wine and will turn up her nose at those she doesn't like. Me, I'm pretty happy with a bottle of swill from the grocery store. I like wine just fine, but generally go for beer instead.

I've been brewing beer for a while and was just reading the latest Northern Brewer catalog and eyeing all of the wine kits. My question is how good are these? Do you think they could satisfy a wine snob? I'm willing to do the work to learn about how to make wine, put money/effort into anything I need to make it better, and have the patience to wait 2 years to drink it, but I'm concerned that she'd be disappointed at the end.

Is there a better way to make wine than using a kit? I've got all of the equipment and chemicals/nutrients already (from beer and mead), so do I need a kit?

Any opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

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In general, no, a wine kit will not please a discriminating wine snob.

Just like with wine purchases, kits vary in quality from "ok" to very good. But you will NOT make a $200 bottle of wine with a kit. No way.

I have purchased $60 kits up to $180 kits. I'd compare the $60 kits (each kit makes 30 bottles, or 6 gallons, so you need a 6 gallon carboy!) to a $3-5 dollar bottle of wine. Enjoyable with a meal but more of a "jug wine" quality.

The next level of kit, maybe $90 or so, is better. I'd compare it to a $10-$12 bottle of wine. Good enough for most people with a meal, and non-discriminating guests will enjoy it.

The most expensive kits come with more juice (the cheaper kits have less juice, more condensed), and with wine skins to ferment on. I bought a wonderful tannat/merlot kit a few years ago, and it's really good. I'd say it makes a $25 bottle of wine as far as quality goes. The more expensive kits are designed for aging, and are usually just better in general.

We love wine with dinner, and my husband drinks it with other meals. (like breakfast and lunch actually). So, we drink about a bottle of wine a day. Since it's an "everyday" drink, like other people drink ice tea, we're fine with good cheap wine like Two Buck Chuck for many meals. Then, about once or twice a week, we have a "good" bottle. If your wife can't enjoy a $10 bottle of wine with a meal, she probably wouldn't go much at all for kits.

I make country wines as well- crabapple, chokecherry, etc, and these wines are actually better than many of my kit wines. Kit wines can have a "kit taste" to them. They still are very good, and I will continue to make kits, but I wanted you to be aware of that. It's probably because they used condense juice that is packaged and it loses some of the freshness that comes from fermenting before pressing.

You can buy frozen grapes and frozen juice. In my experience, those make pretty darn good wines but not as good as you'll purchase from an excellent winery. I have a very nice sauvignon blanc from frozen juice (from Midwest Brewing Supplies) and a decent pinot noir (three gallons, from five gallons of frozen grapes) that is better than ok, and is quite good actually, but certainly not going to be the same in quality as a fine wine.

Wines can take a long time to make, except for those cheaper kits which can be consumed in 6-12 months. If you're not sure that it's something for you, but you can give it as gifts, then you may want to try a medium/high end kit. If your wife says it's ok, then you've got yourself a wine. If not, you've got Christmas gifts or wine for yourself.

Yooper,

Thanks for the good advice. I think if I could make something equivalent to a $25 bottle of wine or better that would be sufficient. The main purpose of this is to have an activity to do with her. She doesn't get into the beer brewing, so I thought this might entice her. If it means that I don't have to buy as much expensive wine all the better. Actually, because she used to work for a distributor we still get really good discounts a couple times a year, so it isn't that bad.

Any recommendations for brands of high-end kits? I'll probably make a cabernet or some other full-bodied red that can age for a long time. We have a tradition of drinking a bottle of wine from our wedding every anniversary. I've got the next 2 years covered, but then we'll be out and this might be a fun replacement. Aging time is not a problem.

If I do go with a high-end kit are there any recommendations/improvements that you'd recommend, or would you follow the instructions exactly?

From my experience nothing you can make will satisfy your wife, wine snobs will never rate home made wine, no matter how good.

On the other hand if you have a wife who is a wine snob, and will appreciate your efforts, then you are a lucky man and I envy you.

Greg

chicagobrew said:

Yooper,

Thanks for the good advice. I think if I could make something equivalent to a $25 bottle of wine or better that would be sufficient. The main purpose of this is to have an activity to do with her. She doesn't get into the beer brewing, so I thought this might entice her. If it means that I don't have to buy as much expensive wine all the better. Actually, because she used to work for a distributor we still get really good discounts a couple times a year, so it isn't that bad.

Any recommendations for brands of high-end kits? I'll probably make a cabernet or some other full-bodied red that can age for a long time. We have a tradition of drinking a bottle of wine from our wedding every anniversary. I've got the next 2 years covered, but then we'll be out and this might be a fun replacement. Aging time is not a problem.

If I do go with a high-end kit are there any recommendations/improvements that you'd recommend, or would you follow the instructions exactly?

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I did a really nice Cellar Craft kit a few years ago, but it was a "limited edition" so it was a once-in-a-lifetime kit. If I was buying a kit today, I'd get this one, I think:
http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/product/3000503/en-pimeur-amarone-della-valpolicella-classico

I saw the En Primeur kits and was thinking about that. They seem to be one of the most premium brands. I have a birthday happening in a couple weeks so I may ask for one of those kits. Our anniversary is also in the beginning of May, so maybe we'll make the wine then. Should be fun. As always, thanks for your great advice.

I guess I'm just a wine hick. I made a Barolo kit that was better than any $75 bottle I've ever tasted. I don't think I've ever tasted a $200 bottle though, so no comparisons there. I will say that the white wine kits I've done are just good, simple wines comparable to $10 - $15 bottles that I used to buy.

If you have the means and desire, you could start with a fresh grape and do the full deal. Being a wine person, your wife might enjoy the real nuts and bolts of it. I think Northern Brewer does a grape buy in and you can pick them up in Milwaukee but you need to order in advance. I also heard during harvest time somewhere in downtown Chicago there is a kind of flea market with fresh juice, I think by Regina. http://www.reginagrapejuice.com/retailers/index.html

My parents are wine people and they used to drive to downtown from central IL to pick up juice and/or grapes, and made some pretty damn good wine out of it.

I just think fresher is better if you're worried about making a top notch wine, personally if I can make a good wine for cheaper than I would normally buy and have a fun hobby then I'm a happy camper.

Speaking as a wine maker: In my opinion, you can make very good wine with a kit, but it does require some wine making know how. If you're competing with cheap wine, it's easy. I don't think those winemakers are putting a lot of thought and energy into crafting the best wine in the world. If she's used to drinking highly crafted wines, it's not just the ingredients you're competing against, it's the knowledge, craftsmanship, marketing, and high end capabilities of these makers. If you're just beginning the hobby with wine, you have a very high bar to reach.

Speaking as a husband: You're in a no wine situation dude. It's like the "does this dress makes my butt look big" question. There's no easy way to come out on top. The only way I can see you being successful on this mission, should you choose to accept it, is to have her lead the way with it. If she "feels" that the kit wine is hers..... that she made it.... that she owns it..... then she'll have a bias towards it instead of against it. She'll approach it with an open mind and will understand the value of what she put into it. If she doesn't like it, no harm done, she doesn't make it again (and you're not to blame). If she does like it, you guys have a great hobby to do together.

Captive said:

Speaking as a wine maker: In my opinion, you can make very good wine with a kit, but it does require some wine making know how. If you're competing with cheap wine, it's easy. I don't think those winemakers are putting a lot of thought and energy into crafting the best wine in the world. If she's used to drinking highly crafted wines, it's not just the ingredients you're competing against, it's the knowledge, craftsmanship, marketing, and high end capabilities of these makers. If you're just beginning the hobby with wine, you have a very high bar to reach.

Speaking as a husband: You're in a no wine situation dude. It's like the "does this dress makes my butt look big" question. There's no easy way to come out on top. The only way I can see you being successful on this mission, should you choose to accept it, is to have her lead the way with it. If she "feels" that the kit wine is hers..... that she made it.... that she owns it..... then she'll have a bias towards it instead of against it. She'll approach it with an open mind and will understand the value of what she put into it. If she doesn't like it, no harm done, she doesn't make it again (and you're not to blame). If she does like it, you guys have a great hobby to do together.

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And speaking as a wife, I agree, that's great advice!

Captive,

I think that's great advice. The purpose of this whole thing is to find something with which she is interested. She likes to drink my beer, but doesn't have any interest in getting involved. I don't really care if I make wine or not. It's not my drink of choice. However, if my wife wants to participate i'll definitely do it.

I don't know how it will turn out, but I'm thinking about going whole hog here. I found a supplier here in Chicago who is getting a shipment of grapes from Chile and Argentina in a few weeks. I'm still trying to get pricing info from them, but they think they can supply me with some.

In the meantime, I'm reading "Techniques in Home Winemaking" and trying to absorb as much info as I can. I have the benefit of a fair amount of brewing experience and degrees in biology and chemistry which makes the science side much easier to grasp. The artistic side is going to be a bit harder.

My wife loves malbec, so that's what I'm thinking about making unless you guys think this is a bad idea. Anyone have suggestions about this varietal? My goal is to make a top quality wine with good aging possibility. I don't intend to really start drinking this for 2 years and then for a while after that.

Any advice on how to get started with this is appreciated.

I have a friend who I shared several bottles of my wine with and she likes them. A couple weeks ago we shared a $65.00 wine that was a gift from one of her clients. I liked mine better and she commented the same. It was good, but I liked mine better.

My point being if you spend the money for the premium kits you'll most likely end up with satisfying wine. I think the subtle differences betyween one wine or another can largely be just personal preference.

chicagobrew said:

Captive,

I think that's great advice. The purpose of this whole thing is to find something with which she is interested. She likes to drink my beer, but doesn't have any interest in getting involved. I don't really care if I make wine or not. It's not my drink of choice. However, if my wife wants to participate i'll definitely do it.

I don't know how it will turn out, but I'm thinking about going whole hog here. I found a supplier here in Chicago who is getting a shipment of grapes from Chile and Argentina in a few weeks. I'm still trying to get pricing info from them, but they think they can supply me with some.

In the meantime, I'm reading "Techniques in Home Winemaking" and trying to absorb as much info as I can. I have the benefit of a fair amount of brewing experience and degrees in biology and chemistry which makes the science side much easier to grasp. The artistic side is going to be a bit harder.

My wife loves malbec, so that's what I'm thinking about making unless you guys think this is a bad idea. Anyone have suggestions about this varietal? My goal is to make a top quality wine with good aging possibility. I don't intend to really start drinking this for 2 years and then for a while after that.

Any advice on how to get started with this is appreciated.

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Maybe the next time you crack open a bottle of Malbec she likes you could run some tests to get a general idea of some of her preferred characteristics, pH, TA, gravity. If you want to age the wine, you'll want to press it and macerate for decent amount of time to extract the most tannins.

The patience required to age for 2 years is the hardest part. Then the questions become: Is this going to be good enough? Do I make more to have a steady pipeline ready? Are these hobby wines going to provide enough of a variety to suit her discerning tastes?

My family brews together and we love it. My son and I brew beer together, and my wife and I make wines and ciders together. None of us have ever tasted even a
$25 bottle of wine so I imagine our tastes are rather elementary but we enjoy our end product so I guess that is the improtant part.

The quality will come with time. Most wineries that put out expensive wines do not use a single yeast strain to make what you drink. They will often ferment multiple batches with multiple strains and experiment with those strains before blending. Most of the time the blends (even if it is one variety of grape) consist of one yeast strain that created the base flavor they wanted, and 2 or 3 other yeast strains to add character and depth. An example would be a Merlot for instance could have 70% of one yeast, 21% of another, 8% of another and 1% of another. Each of those yeasts will add a different character, change the chemical makeup, change the level of antioxidants, or add a level of something "bad" like brett, or VA. (both acceptable or desired in tiny quantities as long as they are killed or stopped before bottling)

WIP said:

The quality will come with time. Most wineries that put out expensive wines do not use a single yeast strain to make what you drink. They will often ferment multiple batches with multiple strains and experiment with those strains before blending. Most of the time the blends (even if it is one variety of grape) consist of one yeast strain that created the base flavor they wanted, and 2 or 3 other yeast strains to add character and depth. An example would be a Merlot for instance could have 70% of one yeast, 21% of another, 8% of another and 1% of another. Each of those yeasts will add a different character, change the chemical makeup, change the level of antioxidants, or add a level of something "bad" like brett, or VA. (both acceptable or desired in tiny quantities as long as they are killed or stopped before bottling)

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I think you're overstating things a bit here. I'm sure lots of wineries use yeasts the way you say, but there are plenty of other top wineries that keep things simple, at least in Australia. Many top wineries only use natural ferments, and others blend based on vineyard blocks, which is considered the most important variable. If you use different yeasts you can lose the terroir that comes with different blocks.

Agreed. I was more stating things that would help a home brewer. Our winery uses the blocks as well, but when you don't have access to different blocks of grapes it doesn't have a bearing.

I was trying to help out a guy who is trying to please his wife. I guess what I was trying to say, is that the process might be fun for her if he fermented many batches of a single variety and had her help him blend it. If he does 3 different yeasts, she can help him to make a great bottled wine.

Also, I would like the names of these wineries that use natural ferments. If they are younger than 100 years old, I am interested in the product they are producing. Is it top grade? In my experience, natural ferments are either good or horrible. Most wineries consider natural yeast to be the biggest enemy. That is why they kill it all off with so2 24 hours before inoculating.

WIP said:

Also, I would like the names of these wineries that use natural ferments. If they are younger than 100 years old, I am interested in the product they are producing. Is it top grade? In my experience, natural ferments are either good or horrible. Most wineries consider natural yeast to be the biggest enemy. That is why they kill it all off with so2 24 hours before inoculating.

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This is one top aussie winery that uses natural ferments. Their wines cost $100+ and are very highly rated.

http://www.jasperhill.com/thewines.asp

Most burgundies are made using natural ferments and have been for hundreds of years.

I know of old world wines that are naturally fermented, but in order to do that you must have a local strain that does what is needed. That is why I stated wineries under 100 years old. Right now the Jasper hill website isn't working, but I am interested to try their product.

I love the idea of naturally fermenting. It can be good or horrible, but I would wager that 95%+ of the wineries in the world DON'T naturally ferment. It is unpredictable unless you are in a known region that supports it.

This convo is way off topic though. I was only posting things that could help the OP to satisfy his wife. I would wager to guess that A)he doesn't have a natural yeast strain at his house that would make good wine B) he doesn't have access to different lots of wine. and C) he does have access to multiple strains of yeast to blend with.

One of the biggest reasons IMHO that home brewed wine isn't as good as high end wines is because they aren't blended in any way and they are done on a budget or with limited resources (no french oak barrels, etc.)

I was simply giving the OP a stepping stone to better wines.