Steeping Grains vs. Required Mash

First off, I'm a extract with steeped grains brewer at this point. But I've seen that several grains "must" be mashed. (i.e. Munich malt, wheat, etc.) Does this mean that I can't use these grains with my brews? Typically the recipes that I have used have a 20-60 minute steep at 150* and then DME/LME is added at the start of the boil. My thought is the mash is required to allow enzymatic cleavage of complex sugars into fermentable sugars; however I thought that steeping grains really doesn't contribute much fermentables to the wort in the first place. So my thought is that all grains would be game for extract/steeped grain recipes...is this correct? So what does it mean for a grain to "require mashing"? And how would I transfer this over to my brewing if these grains really require a mash (keeping in mind that extract w/grains recipes typically have no more than 1-2 lbs of grains total)? Thanks for the help.

Marc.

Take a look at these threads.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8805
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=10214
You are correct that malts like 2-row and Munich must be mashed to break down the starches into sugars. Malts like Crystal and Chocolate do not require mashing because they have been converted in their malting/kilning process into unfermentable sugars, and roasted flavors. Color is also extracted from these grains. They can be steeped before the boil to extract the desirable components.

If you would like to use malts that must be mashed, take a look at the threads above. You can do partial mashes with these grains plus you can add some 2 row malt that can take the place of malt extract saving you some money. I've tried one batch using this method and it was very easy to do. The equipment needed cost me less than $25.00.
I think the step up to partial mashing improves the quality of the beer, allows you to use more grains, and will save money in the long run.

Grains that require mashing will contribute flavors AND starches to the wort if you just steep them. Therein lies the problem.

If you are doing 60 minutes steeps, you can do mini-mashes. All you need is a bigger grain bag. Add a pound of 2-row for every pound of specialty grain. Then reduce the extract, pound for pound if you use LME, .75 pounds for DME. Or use something like promash to make the adjustments.

You don't have to sparge. You'll do better if you do, but it isn't necessary.

Remember, big bag and keep the grain loose.

Is there any benefit to steeping Munich malt? I see recipe kits (for a Kolsch, for example) that have a pound of Munich for steeping. Will you just get the Munich malt flavor without the fermentable sugars? Or what?

Munich Malt is one of the few specialty grains that has enough enzymes to convert itself. If you steep it at 150F for 60 minutes, it will provide both flavors and converted starches to the mash. It cannot convert other grains, though.

david_42 said:

If you are doing 60 minutes steeps, you can do mini-mashes. All you need is a bigger grain bag. Add a pound of 2-row for every pound of specialty grain. Then reduce the extract, pound for pound if you use LME, .75 pounds for DME. Or use something like promash to make the adjustments.

You don't have to sparge. You'll do better if you do, but it isn't necessary.

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Just an observation on that "pound for pound" point....

If you are not sparging, you'll extract much less sugar than a proper sparge would. I've seen it said that a simple steep will extract 40% of the available sugar. So, maybe a better substitution would be to drop 1/2 lb of extract for every 1 pound of malt.

agree? disagree?

just thinking outloud...

-walker

david_42 said:

Munich Malt is one of the few specialty grains that has enough enzymes to convert itself. If you steep it at 150F for 60 minutes, it will provide both flavors and converted starches to the mash. It cannot convert other grains, though.

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what happens if you just do the normal steep, for 30 mins? will it be enough to give the munich malt flavor, and color, like a "normal" specialty malt such as Crystal would?

"Just thinking outloud"

David has left the building. Moved on to bigger things.

rcd said:

what happens if you just do the normal steep, for 30 mins? will it be enough to give the munich malt flavor, and color, like a "normal" specialty malt such as Crystal would?

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If you only steep for 30 minutes it is very likely that you will not convert the starch in the grain into sugar. You will still get color and flavor and *some* sugar, but you will also get starch in the beer.

The starch will add to your gravity (both starting and finishing since it will just stay there) and the beer will be cloudy. It should still taste good, though.

-walker

Um . . . if you are not doing partial mash, you should not be using those grains. If you want to use Munich Malt, why don't you find some Cara-Munich. You will get some of the characteristics of Munich Malt and all you need to do is steep it.

sonvolt said:

Um . . . if you are not doing partial mash, you should not be using those grains. If you want to use Munich Malt, why don't you find some Cara-Munich. You will get some of the characteristics of Munich Malt and all you need to do is steep it.

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okay, that's what i was wondering.

on a side note, why does Midwest sell kits that have Munich malt as part of the steeping specialty grains included? are they just unaware of this fact?

Perhaps Cara-Munich is too expensive . . .

rcd said:

okay, that's what i was wondering.

on a side note, why does Midwest sell kits that have Munich malt as part of the steeping specialty grains included? are they just unaware of this fact?

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Munich can be used to steep because some conversion takes place, just don't use a lot of it. If you plan to use david_42s method of adding 2-row to get some conversion out of other specialty grains be sure to keep the steep at a proper mash temp 150-160 for an hour

Why wouldn't you just use Cara-Munich????

sonvolt said:

Why wouldn't you just use Cara-Munich????

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I suppose you could but he said the midwest kits came with munich. I don't anything about cara-munich except that it's a specialty grain with no enzymes for conversion.

question? not to highjack the thread but ive heard that steeping grains such as black malts for longer than 30 mins will cause bad flavours? this is in regard to doing a 60 minute steep/mash.

I have always done 30 min steeps at around 160 and rinsed the grain bag a few times when complete...

If you only steep for 30 minutes it is very likely that you will not convert the starch in the grain into sugar. You will still get color and flavor and *some* sugar, but you will also get starch in the beer.

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Actually most of the conversion would be complete at 30 minutes. Most of the partial mash recipes I have seen call for 45 minutes. I have used 45 minutes and used a colander to set the grain bag in. I then sparged with a couple of quarts of 170° water. When I have done that I would hit my target OG within a point or two.

I have steeped specialty grains and base grains in partial mash and it always worked out well with great beer. My last one I did by this method won 2nd place in a competition. I am now an all grain brewer but will still be doing partial mash on some occasions, in fact my next up - Dream Maker Swill - is a partial mash brew.

question? not to highjack the thread but ive heard that steeping grains such as black malts for longer than 30 mins will cause bad flavours? this is in regard to doing a 60 minute steep/mash.

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If this were true, all grain brewers would not be able to use black malts. Think of it this way, steeping in a small quanity of 150, 155, or 160 degree water is basically the same as mashing at those temps. Include a bit of sparging and you get a similar result to all grain brewing on that amount of grain.
And before anyone gets pissy, of course you can extract more sugars with mashing because of more effective sparge techniques but we are looking at a small % of difference. Really the only reason you couldn't all grain with steep techniques is because of the impracticality of having a huge sack of grain steeping in a monster boil pot. By adding a certain % of grain to this huge system, you could basically do what is known as "no sparge mashing" and no sparge is wastful of grain but is considered by some as making better beer than any other method.
I believe the keys to a good steep that will aproximate mashing is:

• Temperature control.
• Water to Grain Ratio - I use 1:25-1
• Using a very loose bag so the grain can expand and not get compacted.
• Using a colander to sparge and pouring slowly and evenly.

Gee whiz, you could even batch sparge by using another batch of 170° water used for makeup in another pot and . . . . well, you get the idea.

If you combine the above with late extract addition and everything else being equal in terms of fermentation, temp control, yeast handling, etc. that you will make most beers every bit as good as most all grain brewers.
The big advantage all grainers have is being able to be more versatle in terms of base malts you cannot duplicate with extract malt.
In beers where extracts are closely duplicating a base malt in the recipe, by just being a little better in the other factors of the brewing procedures and techniques, you will end up with better beer than the all grain brewer.
Because of the investment in time and $ for equipment, all grain brewers in some cases will go out of their way to tell you how superior all grain brewing is and it simply is not as wide a gap as you will get the impression that it is.
Reasons for going all grain is not money if you brew 5 gallon or less batches a few times a year. The best reasons for all grain brewing in my opinion are:

• For saving money if you brew often and money matters significantly.
• If you brew in larger quanities than 5 gallon batches.
• If you brew specialty beers that have specific base malts not matching extracts available.
• If, like me, you enjoy the challange of all grain brewing and enjoy the process.

There may be other reasons but status would be a poor reason. If great beer is the goal - partial mash will get you where you need to go.

Prowler 13 said:

If this were true, all grain brewers would not be able to use black malts.

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I have seen many suggestions that AG brewers add their roasted grains near the end of their mash, so maybe there is something to it?

Well, that Kolsche I made, the one that I stepped about 1lb of Munich in for 30 minutes... it did indeed come out cloudy (at least so far; it's in a keg now, but it looks to be in suspension).

Yesterday I brewed a fat tire clone and did my first ever partial mash. I mashed for 60min and sparged. So I'm hoping that will take care of the cloudiness this time. I'm curious though... so that extra "steeping" time and sparging is what makes the difference in cloudy and not cloudy? Extra time required to break down all the starches? Interesting.

P.S. Partial mash was a lot easier than I thought it would be...

Walker-san said:

I have seen many suggestions that AG brewers add their roasted grains near the end of their mash, so maybe there is something to it?

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Black grains can have a significant affect on the mash pH. If you had really soft water, you may not want to add them until the end, but it would have to be REALLY soft.

rcd said:

I'm curious though... so that extra "steeping" time and sparging is what makes the difference in cloudy and not cloudy? Extra time required to break down all the starches? Interesting.

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the longer steeping/mashing time helps a lot, but starch is not the only thing that causes cloudy beers. Not getting a good hot or cold break with your wort will lead to cloudy beer as well.