Do Vanilla Beans Cause Phenolic Flavors?

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ChiechiBrouw

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I recently brewed a "vanilla caramel cream ale" from this very forum and it is delicious. However, after one week of fermentation, one month in the secondary, and a week in the bottle, there are some very strong phenolic flavors.

I brewed another vanilla beer a while ago, using vanilla extract, and the phenolic flavors were unbearable. For this vanilla caramel cream ale, however, I added only vanilla beans soaked in vodka (two chopped beans in ~100 mL) to the secondary, and still wound up with phenolic flavors in the beer.

My question is: does vanilla always lead to phenolic flavors? One caveat: I happened to bottle this beer 24 hours before three days of near-record heat, so for a couple of days these bottles were standing at ~30 °C as opposed to the normal 18-22 °C in my beer closet.

I want to brew this beer again, because it is very tasty, but if phenolic flavors come along for the ride with vanilla, I will just leave them out next time.
 
Vanilla should not automatically lead to phenolic flavors. What kind of vanilla did you use the first time (extract/whole beans/other) and how did you add it to the beer (secondary/vodka extracted/other)?

What kind of yeast did you use? Sometimes it can be caused by the yeast, or the temps at which you ferment (seems most likely to me).

Here's a good resource for your particular problem: http://www.winning-homebrew.com/phenolic-flavors.html
 
I highly doubt it. From my mead experience, vanilla is an ingredient that helps blend everything together. It might just be amplifying and bringing to the forefront flaws that have already been present in your beers, but you just haven't noticed them before. I would take a look at your process from start to finish and make sure that you're properly sanitizing everything each step of the way.
 
I used (re-pitched) American Ale yeast, at 16-18 °C, for two weeks in the primary; fermentation took off like a shot and more-or-less finished after about five days. There were ZERO off flavors coming out of the primary (before vanilla). I soaked two chopped beans in vodka for one month before adding them (and the vodka, ~100 mL total) to the secondary, which then sat at 16-20 °C for one month. Coming out of the secondary, there were some phenolic notes, but nothing serious; it wasn't until after bottling (which, as I mentioned happened during a 30 °C heatwave) that the flavors became really present.

The only flavor issues I have had in countless extract and partial-mash and about a dozen all-grain batches was with another vanilla beer, only with that one I used half vodka-soaked beans and half extract. That beer was undrinkable (the only one to date), but I think it was the extract, which was not clearly labeled (i.e., it may have been artificial vanilla flavor--yuck).

That is why I ask if vanilla beans are known to lead to phenolic flavors--the only two beers in which I have encountered phenolic flavors (or any significant off flavors, really) were conditioned over vanilla. From what you are saying, I trust that the beans themselves were not the source of the flavors, so I will try another batch with vanilla (and hope that a couple more weeks in the bottle will mellow out the current batch).

What frustrates me is that, sans the phenol taste, this beer is amazing.

NOTE: When I say "phenolic flavors" I mean that it literally tastes like it has phenol in it--i.e., C6H5OH. For those who do not know what phenol smells like, it is best described as "medicinal."
 
Please don't think that I'm treating you like an idiot (because the reality is I'm the idiot and I have no idea what's causing the phenols) but have you considered it might be the extraction method of the vanilla?

On the next one you might try adding the beans to the primary after most of the fermentation has subsided, then racking off the beans to secondary when you think it has enough vanilla flavor.

If you're worried about contamination, you could try extracting with a more pure solution: Get a bottle (if available) of Everclear (or something similarly neutral) and diluting with bottled water to about 20%, then using that to extract the vanilla.

What kind of vodka did you use? Top shelf or cheap?

I still think it was some sort of bacterial infection, because it seems strange that phenols would come out more predominately after heating the bottles. 30c is pretty hot, it's possible it could have been a yeast infection as well, since that's a temp where yeast tend to go crazy. It would be interesting to see what the flavor is like after another week. You could try keeping one bottle in a fridge and another out at room temperature and see if there is a substantial difference between the two.
 
If anyone is an idiot, it is generally me :)

I used Belvedere vodka to extract the beans. I have read around and people expressed concerns over chucking the whole beans into the beer (bacteria, etc.), so I chose to go with the vodka route, but others reported that adding the whole beans directly worked for them. I think that next time I will try adding the vanilla to the primary, and then adding more in the secondary only if needed... Now that you mention it, a month may simply have been way too long and perhaps I started extracting nastiness from the beans.

This weekend I will put a couple of bottles in the fridge, and leave the rest out. Next weekend I'll do a side-by-side and see if there is any difference.

Speaking of my idiocy, I just realized that I got the bottles for this batch from a friend, who is not a brewer and they had all kinds of nasty in the bottom. I think I got it all, using caustic cleaner followed by iodine, but that is an obvious source of infection that didn't even cross my mind. I did use a few "tried and true" bottles, so I will also open one of those for comparison.
 
That was another thing I forgot to mention, depending on the vessel you used to soak the beans, you could have gotten some plastic-ness off of it. I used glass cups before for a chocolate stout, but they had plastic tops and I got some flavors off the plastic from the alcohol vapor.

I really don't think there should be much of a problem with adding them directly to the beer, especially if it's a fairly big one, but I completely understand being worried about contamination. Maybe you could try spritzing the beans with vodka before adding them, that way you keep the contact with vodka as short as possible.

Keep us informed as to what happens, this interests me because I've only done maybe a half dozen batches of beer with fruit/spices/etc added and I have never been completely happy with any of the methods I used.
 
Thats one thing about using vodka that sucks too: if you use the cheap stuff, you get nasty flavors. But using top shelf seems like a waste. I don't even like vodka but for the price I'd rather drink it than use it in a beer.
 
Keep us informed as to what happens, this interests me because I've only done maybe a half dozen batches of beer with fruit/spices/etc added and I have never been completely happy with any of the methods I used.


See, that right there is my problem as well: every time I have added anything but hops, malts, water, and yeast, I have been disappointed.
 
I hear ya. I have had others pretty happy with my results but never been satisfied myself. I used the vodka soaking method probably 3 times and every time I have been able to taste some strange compounds(I don't know what to call them, tannins? phenols? burnt rubber?) in the finished product. I really don't like the vodka extraction method.

A friend made a bourbon vanilla porter once and he put oak chips and vanilla in a bourbon bottle for 4-5 months. When he poured it in the beer it was almost gelatinized, but it tasted like heaven.

I really think that the problem with vodka or any other clear liquor is that there is still impurities from the distillation process present. With aged liquors, most of those impurities have either been broken down into less obvious/more benign compounds, or filtered by the charred oak.

That wouldn't help with the vanilla cream ale you mentioned, because you likely wouldn't want bourbon in that. I don't know, just thoughts... it would be interesting to know the science behind it.
 
I think the "strange compounds" you describe are exactly what I am calling "phenolic" flavors. I am at a bit of a disadvantage, as a decade working in a synthetic chemistry lab has sensitized me to certain chemicals, one category of which is phenols. My wife tried the vanilla creme and only described a "hint of some strange flavor" whereas for me it tasted like drinking throat spray :)

I have to say that every bourbon and/or oak treated stout that I have had was delicious... I think next time I'll try either bourbon, really old scotch, or pure ethanol (I'll test first by adding a bit of scotch or bourbon to a finished beer from this batch). I think that adding the beans without pre-soaking will end up being a bit of a waste of expensive vanilla beans, because the extraction efficiency will be so low.

...going to crack another vanilla creme tonight and see if the funk has died down.
 
After two weeks: flavors are still there, though have mellowed a bit. Let's see what another week in the fridge does.
 
Hi I'm Josh ...

Unfortunately after trying to post this several times a few weeks ago whilst my internet was playing up I've forgotten the acute details of what I wanted to post, but I'll give you the best overview I can from memory.

The phenolic smell/flavour you can sometimes get from vanilla can be caused by a few things, It could either be the beans were not cured properly or that they were not stored properly.

It's a bad idea to keep vanilla beans in air tight containers as this can cause them to smell phenolic after some time. It's best to store them wrapped in some kind of parchment in a cool dry place.

I've found that some people don't realise that there are many diferant types of vanilla all with quite remarkably differing unique characteristics. Eg. Beans from India and some other places (Indonesia being another one I believe) can have a very tobacco like smell to them and not really smell much like what one would "expect" vanilla to smell like, but taste amazing. There's so many "strains" of vanilla and only one of them is the one we associate with the mainstream vanilla scent. They all smell and taste like vanilla to some extent, but a lot have quite strong odours of other stuff. Some smell of prunes for example!

If you are having issues with your vanilla smelling, tasting not how you want or if it's phenolic, then it may well just be that batch of vanilla, the supplier/grower not curing it properly, poor storage condition or simply a variety of vanilla that isn't to your preference. I would suggest trying out diferant beans from diferant countries and suppliers and hopefully you'll find something that fits your brew a lot better and doesn't give it a phenolic taste.
Madagascar Bourbon Vanilla Beans are the most popular and sought after vanilla variety. The flavor is rich, dark and creamy with an overwhelming sweet, buttery aroma. These are well suited for many baking recipes, drinks and desserts.


I know this is slightly off the forums topic, but I'd not long finished making some luscious vanilla ice cream when I decided to make this post, as I was worried that my beans were off as they smelled of coffee/tobacco and really nothing like any vanilla I had smelled before. I thought they had gone off, but after doing a lot of research it was just that particular strain of vanilla.

I'm not sure on the forum rules, so I'll not link to any sites selling vanilla, but I'll copy paste some quotes from a few places that gives some more in depth information about what I've been talking about.

Vanilla beans should be stored in a closed, but not air-tight, container in a cool, dry, relatively dark place. Do not store vanilla beans in the refrigerator or freezer! (The cold will dry them out and may promote a particular type of vanilla mold.) The important thing is that the temperature be relatively constant and that air circulate a bit. We also do not recommend vacuum-packing, as that can result in the beans' getting somewhat phenolic, leading to a highly unpleasant, acrid smell.

The "best practice" is to store your beans wrapped in wax paper, and kept in your food pantry in a closed, but unsealed, cardboard box.

The tobacco smell: Some, but not all, Indonesian vanilla beans are cured using a heat source by burning wood. This tends to leave some of the beans with a smokey or hickory-like smell (we sun cure our Indonesian pods to avoid this). If the pods were simply not cured correctly then they may put off what we call in the industry, a phenolic smell. Poorly cured pods will also tend to mold more easily....which seems to be the case with your stash.

Now for the yellow and white spots: If you touch the pod with your finger and and the heat of your finger causes the spots to melt or disappear then what you are seeing is actually the vanallin in the pod crystalizing on the surface of the pod. If this is not what you are experiencing then it is mold. If it is not too far advanced you can "clean" the pods with some vanilla extract which is 35% alcohol or wipe them with some vodka. The yellow mold will grow on the body of the pod and is quite persistent and you might have to throw the pods away. If it is white mold then it is usually growing on the tips of the pod and is easily killed by wiping as described above.

Dried out: If you solve the mold problem and the pods are usable but dry then we have a solution to that as well. A nice vanilla pod is easy to wrap around your finger. They should be at about 25% moisture content. If they are dry you can actually rehydrate them by placing them in a zip lock bag with about a tablespoon or two of water and let them sit for a couple of days.

Hope this helps. Enjoy!

Here's what I hope is an amusing/interesting story about vanilla. Back when I was doing computer dating (12+ years ago, I guess), I met a guy who worked at a local (HUGE) flavorings company. This guy was full of stories about why vanilla had gotten so expensive and why it wasn't any good right then. Tropical storms had decimated the orchid crops so companies like McCormick had to blend lesser vanillas just to get stuff on the shelves. The flavorings company had over 100 different vanillas, many that were specific to different food manufacturers (like Breyer's, Oreos, etc). When he and I met face to face, he handed me a box full of small brown bottles...ALL DIFFERENT VANILLAS in varying strengths! Each one had a distinctive fragrance and taste. Too bad the guy was a jerk, that stuff was amazing!




I hoped this little collection of information will save some people fair bit of time hunting about the internet trying to work out why their beans smell/taste diferant to what they had expected.

Enjoy your vanilla!

P.S. if anyone wants a mean recipe for vanilla ice cream let me know, there's no reason you couldn't add a bit of home brewed bourbon whisky to it when you make it either ... just to keep the post on topic! ;)
 
I just found this site, it probably has everything you'd ever want to know about vanilla!

http://www.vanillareview.com/vanilla-information/

Goes into a lot of detail about the differences between the types of vanilla out there, what I think can send people into a bit of a panik due to the aforementioned issue with vanilla not smelling like "vanilla".


(sorry if links aren't allowed, as far as I know this website doesn't sell vanilla, it's just an information site, but I haven't looked at the entire thing, so feel free to remove it if there's a problem, give me a pm letting me know, and I'll have a sift through it and pick out some useful information to repost here).
 
Do you think you're being put off by vanillyl alcohol? If you're bottle conditioning the beer, some of the vanillin maye be reduced to vanillyl alcohol, which could seem more phenolic to you than vanillin (they're both phenols). It's hard to find info on what the alcohol smells/tastes like (versus the aldehyde), but I suspect that may be the issue since it happens after bottling.
 
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