upgrading service panel

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tarheels

tarheels

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I need more power. Currently my service is 100 amps. i'm trying to run 3 refrigerators (besides the one in the house) plus i need power to run my soon to be automated rig! A kitchen remodel is in the plans within the year and i'll be moving in less than 2 yrs. I need some advice and whats it going to cost me.
 
tarheels said:
I need more power. Currently my service is 100 amps. i'm trying to run 3 refrigerators (besides the one in the house) plus i need power to run my soon to be automated rig! A kitchen remodel is in the plans within the year and i'll be moving in less than 2 yrs. I need some advice and whats it going to cost me.
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For me in West Georgia, I was going to go from 200A to 400A. Was going to be $2500-$4000.
 
If you're the least bit "handy" and can follow a good reference book, you can do the job yourself. The only real hazard is pulling the electric meter from your meter box on the outside of the house, and replacing it when the job's done. Typical gear for this is guantlet-length lineman's heavy rubber electrical gloves and a rubber mat to stand on while doing so.
 
I'm pretty handy around electricity myself... but upgrade your service as a DIY job?

I also have 100 amps so this interests me. I have no issue putting in a new breaker panel etc. but the actual meter and connections/lines would need to be the power company I thought...
 
I upgraded my service here in Portland this year. House was 125 amp overhead and a PO had hacked in an undersized panel next to the original fusebox.
It wasn't that bad. It would have been MUCH easier if I had mounted the socket and mast on the outside of the house instead of using a flush socket. But I am picky and wanted it to look super good so I went the extra mile. I passed inspection the first time.

You don't necessarily have to work with a hot meter, either. The utility will cut your power for you so you can pull your meter dead. The downside is that you will not have temporary power available to run tools, lights etc during the project unless you have a generator (or an extension cord to the neighbor's house) on hand.

My piece of advice is to get a good library book (there is one called "for pros by pros" which I used and is excellent), start real early in the morning, have temp power available for your fridge, lights, tools etc, and have a helper available who can run to the store for you in case you forget clamps, bushings etc.

If you're not good with electricity or your reading comprehension isn't so hot, then this project probably isn't for you.
 
Some municipalities will not let you do this on your own, inspection or not. That's kind of BS I think, but what can you do. This is definitely not something you want to do without pulling a permit. If you get a defective breaker or something goes horribly wrong later and your house catches fire you could find yourself uninsured.

Like Major Woody said, you can have the utility cut the power for a day. It's really not that hard, just label everything before you disconnect it so you know what size breaker each circuit was on. Also know you cannot extend any wires, so plan accordingly.
 
drayman86 said:
The only real hazard is pulling the electric meter from your meter box on the outside of the house, and replacing it when the job's done. Typical gear for this is guantlet-length lineman's heavy rubber electrical gloves and a rubber mat to stand on while doing so.
Click to expand...

On the farm, at the farm shop, we used to just pull the meter. No gloves, no mat. Just grip the glass part and pull.

Wonder any of us are still breathing...
 
I pulled my own, too, actually. I called the utility and asked the nice lady, "do you have a problem with property owners pulling their own meters?" She goes "electricians do it but we do not want homeowners doing their own. We will come turn you of and then back on as many times as you need, for free".

Then I called the building inspector and he goes, "keep your fingers out of the socket and you'll be fine. Better to beg for forgiveness than to ask first. I didn't tell you that."

So I pulled my own and kept my fingers out of the socket. Tested it afterward to make sure the panel was dead, then proceeded. Very important to test afterward because some sockets will close the circuit when the meter is out! In that case you would be turned into a strip of bacon when you went to diconnect your main panel lugs. Not worth the DIY savings!

When the linemen came out from the utility and saw that I had pulled my own meter, they didn't care.

I cannot imagine living somewhere where you were not allowed to do your own electrical work on your own residence. I would never do this without permits. They are necessary for your own safety.

I had to do this because the new socket and mast had to be mounted right where the old one was. For that reason, you really can't leave the old one in place.
 
i'm definitely not doing this myself. just got the quote. $1800 (which $900 is labor) plus $175 on the electric bill. Which i'm a little confused because i thought they (electric company) were responsible for that. I dont think i'm going to do this. I do have 1 space available on the panel i could use for a 20 amp breaker. Will that be enough to run brew rig with 1 2000w heating element, pump, controller, etc.
 
Cpt_Kirks said:
On the farm, at the farm shop, we used to just pull the meter. No gloves, no mat. Just grip the glass part and pull.

Wonder any of us are still breathing...
Click to expand...

Well, that is not the problem at all. It is the exposed lugs at the top of the can that are capable of supplying infinite amperage that are the danger. They can and very well may kill you if you get on them because the are essentially not protected.
 
tarheels said:
i'm definitely not doing this myself. just got the quote. $1800 (which $900 is labor) plus $175 on the electric bill. Which i'm a little confused because i thought they (electric company) were responsible for that. I dont think i'm going to do this. I do have 1 space available on the panel i could use for a 20 amp breaker. Will that be enough to run brew rig with 1 2000w heating element, pump, controller, etc.
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The answer is that it depends.
There are two big factors. The first is whether you are simply out of room or whether you are out of capacity. If you have too many loads for the capacity of the panel to supply, then you must upgrade. However, if you are simply out of room and your panel is otherwise serviceable, then you may be able to make room in the panel by removing some full width breakers and replacing them with double "skinny" breakers. Your panel may or may not be able to accept such breakers. It would help to see photos of your panel with the cover off and with some of the lower breakers pulled. A quick glance at the main bus bar (the big metal bars running vertically down the center of the panels under the breakers that the breakers snap into) should help us tell you whether your panel can accept skinnies.

Swapping some of those out should give you the space you need but doesn't address the question of how much current you are likely ever to be pulling at the same time. That is another question which can only be answered by looking at the loads on the panel right now.
 
As long as it is not a continuous load you should be able to run up to 2400w of equipment off that breaker (assuming 120V... which might be lower depending on time of day/area etc).

If you want to run higher, and do 240V stuff...you need another space open.

I do not suggest this... but I have seen many times where people would put more than one wire on a breaker, putting the lights for two rooms on one breaker for instance. If someone were to do this they'd want to combine two that have the same amp breaker, and leave it at that amperage so you don't have a larger amperage than any of the wire could handle. This would free up a spot to put in a double pole breaker.

I am on 100 amp service as I mentioned. In the summer I'll probably turn the AC off while I brew, and maybe the fermentation freezer just in case the ~24 amps I'll pull won't put me over 100 and pop my main (Which I've never done...)
 
I just bought a 200 amp square d enclosure and breakers on ebay....I won't be doing the box switch over but moving the individual circuits over is no big deal.

My house only has 60 amp service... when my wife runs her hair dryer all the lights dim in the upstairs. It's hard to believe that all the previous owners left it like that for so many years.
 
if i figured this right i should be able to do it. 2000w element = 16.6 amps, pump 1.4 amps, controller shouldn't be more than 1. i think i will save the $2000 and put that to use somewhere else in the house and let the next owner deal with the panel.
 
CatchinZs said:
I just bought a 200 amp square d enclosure and breakers on ebay....I won't be doing the box switch over but moving the individual circuits over is no big deal.

My house only has 60 amp service... when my wife runs her hair dryer all the lights dim in the upstairs. It's hard to believe that all the previous owners left it like that for so many years.
Click to expand...

You should check before you install that 200 amp box as I've been told that the wire that comes in the house can handle an upgrade from 60 to 100 amps, but a bigger box than that will require a larger wire from the strret.
 
Gone fishing is correct your elec company can check it out, about 2000 dollars for 200amp service seems about right, as a former elec contractor. Please use a lic contractor this is NOT a DYI project.
 
There is so much wrong with this thread, I would not know where to start! If you do not understand the NEC (National Electrical Code) please, please don't attempt this sort of project. changing switches, recepticals, light fixtures is one thing, a service is quite another.

Remember this, just because the light comes on with the flick of the switch, doesn't always mean it was wired correctly.

READ: somthing may appear to be correct but may be extreamly dangerous.
 
I am not doing this myself and i dont think i'm going to do the panel at all. I think i will have the electrican wire a 20 amp circuit to my back porch which will be used for the brew rig / freezer. The next owner can worry about the panel.
 
bull8042 said:
Well, It is the exposed lugs at the top of the can that are capable of supplying infinite amperage that are the danger.
bull; your the only one to mention that one and boy is that the truth on the unlimited available amperage. You got +10 points on that reply.

bull8042 said:
They can and very well may kill you.
Click to expand...
Well you can't protect everyone from themselves or their actions besides there is the Darwin award for many.

This is another one people take for granted that the average homeowner believes an electrician is just a overpriced repairman. Did you ever think we might have many years not counting the 5 year minimum apprenticeship program government regulated in the trade besides yearly required minimum hours of continuation educational classes? These classes are required by state law to maintain our state certification license as a electrician, not only apprentices but all the journemen in the trade thruout their time in the trade. I would like to see many other people after hours of construction in class from 5-9 pm after a days work and yes it could be a code class as it changes all the time as much as tax laws change every year for H&R block people to study up on.

Then there's that dirty word to many that is ignored as they know better and are above it called the NEC code book. This we must learn and have almost memorized end to end not just any one part of alone plus the added features of a new updated one with more changes added every three years. These new added items must about be memorized also as your not paid to sit on your ass reading the code book when a building is going up. Checking a section or item in the book yes and we carry it with our tools all the time. So in a way it is our bible without getting some religious person worked up on me mentioning the word Bible here.

As far as service changes I stayed away from "ding bat" work, mostly industrial and some commercial for variety change. I switched from 100 to 200 amp years ago. Cut the service drop to the house, used big clip on's with a 40 amp breaker on the drop cord tapped to the service drop for power to do all the work on the service change plus keep part of the house hot like the refrigerators. Removed the old surface mounted panel, installed the new and wired up everthing. Split bolt reconnected the service drop. Piece of cake. Oh later went down and filed for a permit and had it finaled after the city upgraded the service drop size and pressed new sleeves. I had the panel loaded with breakers from the company plus the company supplied the 2" rigid conduit that I already bent and offset ahead of time. Hell they gave me the feeders from the drip loop to the meter.
Done venting no replies necessary as i'm still only a "visitor" one this HBT forun by one member.
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Click to expand...
 
CatchinZs said:
I just bought a 200 amp square d enclosure and breakers on ebay....I won't be doing the box switch over but moving the individual circuits over is no big deal.

My house only has 60 amp service... when my wife runs her hair dryer all the lights dim in the upstairs. It's hard to believe that all the previous owners left it like that for so many years.
Click to expand...


Dude, you probably have #4's, maybe even #6's (I have seen it) to that panel, do plan on replacing the wire and pipe that feed that meter, oh, might have to replace the meter also, what size pipe?, wire you gonna use?, over head?, underground?, how 'bout grounding?, where to ground to? what size wire? Might have to bring the whole house up to basic building code with a service change........the list just keeps on adding up. What I am saying is yeah, you throw that 200 panel board in place of the 60 amp, stuff may work, but it will be extreamly dangerous.
 
sparkyaber said:
There is so much wrong with this thread, I would not know where to start!
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Pardon me, but spoken like a true electrical contractor who's afraid that the secret of DIY electrical work will get out.

There's no mystery, or extreme hazard, to doing this type of work yourself IF you have a thorough understanding of how to eliminate those hazards and how to properly install the box and associated circuits.

After installing two 120V and one 240V circuits, I'm considering upgrading my service from 150A to 200A on a DIY project. Planning on doing it during warm weather, taking two days to complete, and being w/o power for that period of time will be no issues with proper planning.

I'm fortunate in that I have access to a former master electrician in my office with whom I consult on such matters. He agrees with me; DIY service upgrades are more than possible, they're very much within the grasp of a DIY'er, provided of course that it's done properly.

In my home, I've worked behind electricians who've done some pretty shady things, such as connecting two circuits to one breaker, failing to properly ground my HVAC system, improper grounding inside the panel, and reversed polarity on some circuits. It's like any skilled trade; most are great professionals, but a license does not gurarantee competency or good work.
 
My neighbor is an electrician. Smart guy and I don't mean to diminish the importance of having all your work done to code.

With that said, this is to some extent "ding bat work". The electrical inspector will carefully look over your connections, wire protection, grounding and bonding.

No it's not simple but a lay person can do it unless the job is complicated for some reason.

I actually think that there is more that can potentially go wrong when sizing and wiring branch circuits than replacing the panel.

If I only had a 60A, there is no way I would install a 200A panel and leave the service feeders sized for 60. One of the functions of the 200A main is to protect the service feeders from overcurrent, since they must be sized at least large enough to carry the possible 200A load. I can't imagine such an arrangement ever passing inspection. This is a serious deal, too, becuase if those feeders overheat, the only fuse is at the transformer and it's a big one. By the time that one blows, your house will be on fire.
 
MajorWoody said:
If I only had a 60A, there is no way I would install a 200A panel and leave the service feeders sized for 60. One of the functions of the 200A main is to protect the service feeders from overcurrent, since they must be sized at least large enough to carry the possible 200A load.
Click to expand...

You make an excellent point, and thanks for reminding me of what I forgot to add to my above post. The feed line coming into the house has to be properly sized, and most utilities will upgrade this if necessary at zero cost to the homeowner. They wanna see ya' use as much juice as you safely can.
 
Tulsa requires that any meter work be it pulled or not be inspected.

dec 07 we had major ice storms where a ton of people lost their weather heads due to trees on the lines to the house. for any cans that were replaced required a licensed electrician come out and replace repair and have a permit pulled. for service panels same thing. and insurance would be void if there was no permit pulled for a box upgrade. so do yourself a favor. if you do anything find out what the local permitting office has to say. if they do not require a permit then your golden. but if they do, and if you dont have one, the insurance company will not cover you.
 
Our local utility will not reconnect you until they see the inspector's sticker on the meter socket.

An electrical permit for this operation here in Portland is only $115. Small price to pay for the peace of mind that comes with two inspections, especially if you are not a professional and are following instructions out of a book as I did.
 

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