Re-Yeasting (or not) when bottling aged beers

When bottling long-aged beers I've bottled "normally" with a calculated amount of priming sugar, I've dialed back the sugar and increased the sugar to account for brett, I've re-yeasted at bottling with some bloomed dry yeast (champagne, wine & beer), re-yeasted with sacch slurry, and also with brett.

Obviously this is highly variable from batch to batch, but I don't get consistent enough results with any of these processes to deem it my go-to method.

How does everyone else bottle their long-aged wild/sour/funky beers?

I've been planning my bottling to coincide with when I have a starter for another beer. I take about half a pint from an active starter and add that to the bottling bucket.

Seems to be working OK, the bottles are carbing fine, such that I can be drinking them within a few weeks if I choose.

This is a great question as I have been wondering what others are doing as well. The last Brett blended beer I bottled I used s-04 based in a recommendation from a sour guru in our area. It seems to have worked pretty well for me. But what is the "acceptable" way others are doing? I would think you would want to use a strain that is already in the mix to begin with.

I used to just bottle with whatever was active in the beer. Now I add a little champagne yeast with priming sugar. Champagne yeast only eats the priming sugar so it will compete readily with any active bacteria and yeast for the corn sugar. It flocs well and clumps on the bottom of the bottle.

You also have to calculate in the highest temperature of the beer during aging to get in the ballpark of how much CO2 might be left. Then add an additional amount of priming sugar to account for what dissipated over time regardless of the temperature.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

You also have to calculate in the highest temperature of the beer during aging to get in the ballpark of how much CO2 might be left. Then add an additional amount of priming sugar to account for what dissipated over time regardless of the temperature.

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Is there a standard calculation for determining how much CO2 dissipates over time?

Aschecte said:

I would think you would want to use a strain that is already in the mix to begin with.

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Why? Any sacc strain should do. Any sugars the sacc strain will ferment will already have been consumed by the brett and bugs. The only simple sugar for the new yeast to ferment will be the priming sugar.

Calder said:

Why? Any sacc strain should do. Any sugars the sacc strain will ferment will already have been consumed by the brett and bugs. The only simple sugar for the new yeast to ferment will be the priming sugar.

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Well that was my curiosity I know the sacch will only eat the priming sugars but I have heard everything from wine yeast, Sachh, Brett, sherry yeast etc. I was curious a to what others are doing and if there was a right way for sours I was not aware of that's all.

I have been using red star wine yeast mainly cause its cheap, also I have heard wine yeast will stand up to the acidity a little better.

bradjoiner said:

I have been using red star wine yeast mainly cause its cheap, also I have heard wine yeast will stand up to the acidity a little better.

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I have heard this as well with a sour beer as the ph is drastically lower than a standard beer and a standard Sacch strain will not carbonate due to the ph. for my non-sours I have been re yeasting with the primary strain or a nuetral strain like us-05. I have also recently read that for sours Sacchromyces Bayanan - EC-1118 by llavlin ( I believe that's the spelling ) is a good choice.

I have had good success using EC-1118 to bottle sours.

Aschecte said:

I have heard this as well with a sour beer as the ph is drastically lower than a standard beer and a standard Sacch strain will not carbonate due to the ph. for my non-sours I have been re yeasting with the primary strain or a nuetral strain like us-05. I have also recently read that for sours Sacchromyces Bayanan - EC-1118 by llavlin ( I believe that's the spelling ) is a good choice.

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I've only bottled one sour so far - not an old beer, but very, very sour and carbed up great with us-05. Didn't measure pH, but I'd guess it's under 3.5.

TNGabe said:

I've only bottled one sour so far - not an old beer, but very, very sour and carbed up great with us-05. Didn't measure pH, but I'd guess it's under 3.5.

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That's good to know as I have a Flanders red I may just go with us-05 to carb it up. Like I said I never really knew what others are doing, I'm basing my posts on what i have read either from books or just what others here on HBT have said.

When you do this, do you make a starter? Or just mix in the yeast at the same time as the bottling sugar?

monkeybox said:

When you do this, do you make a starter? Or just mix in the yeast at the same time as the bottling sugar?

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I don't make a starter, but I have used harvested sacch slurry once or twice. Usually I use Red Star Pasteur champagne yeast, Red Star Montrachet wine yeast, or Lalvin ec-1118 champagne yeast and let the packet warm in warm water for a bit and add that to my priming sugar in the bottling bucket a bit ahead of time.

I'm still just wondering how everyone adjusts priming sugar calculations for residual CO2 lost/left in solution after a very long aging period?

dcHokie said:

I don't make a starter, but I have used harvested sacch slurry once or twice. Usually I use Red Star Pasteur champagne yeast, Red Star Montrachet wine yeast, or Lalvin ec-1118 champagne yeast and let the packet warm in warm water for a bit and add that to my priming sugar in the bottling bucket a bit ahead of time.

I'm still just wondering how everyone adjusts priming sugar calculations for residual CO2 lost/left in solution after a very long aging period?

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Personally just by guess work. I know about how warm my sours get over the summer (upper 70s to low 80s) and usually account for that temperature plus 5-10% extra priming sugar. Unless you're talking about gueuze sour beers usually aren't crazy carbonated so even on the low side of the typical ale will get you appropriate levels of carbonation.

I bottled my first batch of sours in July and used half a packet of EC-1118 that I rehydrated and added a little sugar to. Once it got a little foamy I poured it into the bottling bucket then racked on top. All the bottles were carbed in three weeks to 4.5 volumes. I'm not certain if this is the best way to re-yeast but it worked well enough to do again.

You know I think I know why I'm a bit confused on this topic.... I know brett as well as other bacteria will consume All sugars less a small amount for survival ( brett will never eat all sugar as they know to leave some for metabolic sustanance for the long haul ) but, lets say you have a lambic that you want to bottle at 1.008 because it tastes "right" and you know the brett is going to bring it down more over time, maybe years..... so in theory you can still drop lets say 6 more points in the bottle.... how do you know how much sugar and Sacch yeat to add I would agree with BryanThompson with using the Ec-1118 but how much without over carbing the beer ? With all due respect to BT 4.5 volumes seems pretty high, by bjcp standards about 2.5 volumes is where most sours minus lambics should be.

In a clean beer you would calculate the remaining attenuation and adjust from there but it's more tricky with a sour beer because not everything produces CO2 nor does it produce it at the same rate as sacc. If you bottle the beer at 1.008 based on flavor it's going to continue to sour and/or get more funky as the brett and bacteria are still at work in the bottle. If you like the beer where it is you will have to knock out the brett and bacteria and then add fresh priming sugar and yeast to carb the bottles. You can't have it both ways. If you want it to continue to ferment out then you might as well leave it in the fermentor and once it's dry you can bottle.

I agree that 4.5 volumes is too high for the BJCP but they don"t drink my beers I enjoy very high carbonation in my lambics, it seems to make the nose much more noticeable.

ReverseApacheMaster said:

In a clean beer you would calculate the remaining attenuation and adjust from there but it's more tricky with a sour beer because not everything produces CO2 nor does it produce it at the same rate as sacc. If you bottle the beer at 1.008 based on flavor it's going to continue to sour and/or get more funky as the brett and bacteria are still at work in the bottle. If you like the beer where it is you will have to knock out the brett and bacteria and then add fresh priming sugar and yeast to carb the bottles. You can't have it both ways. If you want it to continue to ferment out then you might as well leave it in the fermentor and once it's dry you can bottle.

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That's kinda what I figured the answer would be. To knock the Brett and bacteria out how would you do this ? Pasteurization, campden and sorbate? And how would you in theory pasteurize while still in the fermenter before bottling ?

BryanThompson said:

I agree that 4.5 volumes is too high for the BJCP but they don"t drink my beers I enjoy very high carbonation in my lambics, it seems to make the nose much more noticeable.

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Got me there !!! You have a good point.

Read through this.