Mash pH?

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bassballboy

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I'm setting up my mash tun right now and am almost ready to try out AG brewing! I've been doing a lot of reading, and I understand that pH is extremely important in all grain. I may invest in some test strips in the future (not sure if they are overkill), but with this batch I'm considering eyeballing it.

I plan to use 5 gallons of RO water and 2 gallons of Ice Mountaing spring water. I also plan to add in a tsp of gypsum as well as a tsp of calcium chloride to lower the ph. Should this be ok or should I consider more? I understand it's hard to say for sure, I'm trying to get in the right ballpark for now.
 
Do read the Primer and follow its advice but do not rely on test strips. It is rather likely that they will read 0.3 pH units low causing you you to panic when you see a reading of pH 5.1 (not good) when in fact the pH is actually 5.4 (where you'd like it to be). OTOH the pH strips may read correctly. Problem is that you don't know when.

If you are going to be serious about brewing with grains then a pH meter is almost a necessity. The guidance of the Primer is broad and the various spreadsheets and calculators while helpful are not very accurate either in some cases. The problem is that you don't know whether you have one of those cases or not.

You will hear lots of comments to the effect 'My strawberry gold Hop Slug amber advanced to mini- BOS in the East Overshoe Open Competition and I never used a pH meter in my life.' So no, you don't absolutely have to have one but your path to good beer will be a lot shorter and you'll see more along the way if you do.
 
Do read the Primer and follow its advice but do not rely on test strips. It is rather likely that they will read 0.3 pH units low causing you you to panic when you see a reading of pH 5.1 (not good) when in fact the pH is actually 5.4 (where you'd like it to be). OTOH the pH strips may read correctly. Problem is that you don't know when.

If you are going to be serious about brewing with grains then a pH meter is almost a necessity. The guidance of the Primer is broad and the various spreadsheets and calculators while helpful are not very accurate either in some cases. The problem is that you don't know whether you have one of those cases or not.

You will hear lots of comments to the effect 'My strawberry gold Hop Slug amber advanced to mini- BOS in the East Overshoe Open Competition and I never used a pH meter in my life.' So no, you don't absolutely have to have one but your path to good beer will be a lot shorter and you'll see more along the way if you do.

I am considering getting a pH meter, I'm a little concerned about cost though. I did some reading and it sounds fairly expensive to maintain and they don't last long. Given I brew once a month on average, it's hard to justify. Maybe I'll see if some friends want to all go in on one
 
It is true that a good meter is quite expensive but adequate ones can be had for under $100. The maintenance for these is minimal and modern ones seems to last for up to 3 years. Many of them have replaceable electrodes even at the low price point though the cost of a replacement electrode is often 80% of the cost of a new meter.

Other than the electrode you need some DI water for rinsing, two buffers (4 and 7) and some electrode storage solution. These are all relatively inexpensive.
 
Not to thread jack, but where can I get some DI water for rinsing? Can I also use DI water for storage, or do I need storage-specific solution?

The closest I've come in my limited searching locally is steam-distilled water.
 
Ideally you'll want to pick up storage solution, cleaning solution and ph 4.01 and 7.01 buffer solutions. (There are some packages that include them all on Amazon for $45 - $75.)

I find the 4.01 and 7.01 sachets to be incredibly annoying and you're definitely only going to use them once, so I prefer getting the larger bottles of the ph buffer solutions.


Despite keeping my ph probe stored in storage solution in only slightly over a year my probe is having "issues" and is taking a VERY long time to calibrate; I'm waiting for cleaning solution to show up but based on some other things I've read, I'm hoping that this resolves my issues because the maintenance costs on this thing are far more than I'd like to spend otherwise...


Adam
 
Not to thread jack, but where can I get some DI water for rinsing? Can I also use DI water for storage, or do I need storage-specific solution?

The closest I've come in my limited searching locally is steam-distilled water.

Distilled water is fine for rinsing. It is pretty close to DI, closer than RO.

You should use distilled water for storage only if the manufacturer of your electrode recommends it which isn't likely as most will want you to use a saturated solution of potassium chloride perhaps buffered. Do what the manufacturer recommends.

There are some tips on the use and calibration of pH meters at
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ph-meter-calibration-302256/
 
Despite keeping my ph probe stored in storage solution in only slightly over a year my probe is having "issues" and is taking a VERY long time to calibrate; I'm waiting for cleaning solution to show up but based on some other things I've read, I'm hoping that this resolves my issues because the maintenance costs on this thing are far more than I'd like to spend otherwise...

In days of yore the answer to a problem like this was always 'the junction'. If you look at the end of your electrode you will see three things sticking out. One is a glass bulb (the pH sensor), another is usually a silvery thing which is the temperature sensor (RTD) and the third is some sort of frit whose job is to let electrolyte flow from the body into the test solution. This is the junction. If it becomes fouled, electrolyte can flow, the requisite electrical circuit is incomplete and there are problems with readings. Junction fouling used to be very common, hence suspicion of this was the first thing that came to mind whenever there was a problem.

However, if the bulb becomes coated (in brewing sugars and proteins are the usual culprits) response slows but slow response is also normal for an aging electrode. Today, even with a bargain basement meter, you should get appreciably more than a year.

Thus it is probable that the bulb is coated or the junction is fouled. In either case cleaning with an enzyme based cleaner should do the job but do be sure it is enzyme based (example: Zymit works very well for jobs like this).

Good luck with it!
 
It is true that a good meter is quite expensive but adequate ones can be had for under $100. The maintenance for these is minimal and modern ones seems to last for up to 3 years. Many of them have replaceable electrodes even at the low price point though the cost of a replacement electrode is often 80% of the cost of a new meter.

Other than the electrode you need some DI water for rinsing, two buffers (4 and 7) and some electrode storage solution. These are all relatively inexpensive.

What do you think of this stuff? I can't wrap my head around how they can guarantee 5.2, but maybe there is a way?

http://labelpeelers.com/five-star-52-ph-stabilizer-1-lb-p-3812.html
 
First off, have you brewed extract kits with your tap water? Did they turn out OK? Does your water taste good?

If your water tastes good and you don't have chlorine or chloramines make your first batch with it with no adjustments and see how it turns out. There is no point in spending money on minerals or gadgets to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
 
First off, have you brewed extract kits with your tap water? Did they turn out OK? Does your water taste good?

If your water tastes good and you don't have chlorine or chloramines make your first batch with it with no adjustments and see how it turns out. There is no point in spending money on minerals or gadgets to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

I have been doing partial mash and it's been fine, but moving to AG I've been reading that mash pH is very important for conversion etc, so I'd like to be in the right ballpark unless I'm not understanding things correctly
 
I have been doing partial mash and it's been fine, but moving to AG I've been reading that mash pH is very important for conversion etc, so I'd like to be in the right ballpark unless I'm not understanding things correctly

Of course mash pH is important, in partial mash as well as all grain. If your partial mash converted as it should have, why wouldn't your all grain convert.

Unless you have horrible water the typical thing for the grains to do in the mash is to pull your pH down to the proper level. That's why I suggested you try a batch. It usually will make good beer but maybe not award winning beer. If you aren't satisfied with what you get, then spring for the pH meter.
 
Of course mash pH is important, in partial mash as well as all grain. If your partial mash converted as it should have, why wouldn't your all grain convert.

Unless you have horrible water the typical thing for the grains to do in the mash is to pull your pH down to the proper level. That's why I suggested you try a batch. It usually will make good beer but maybe not award winning beer. If you aren't satisfied with what you get, then spring for the pH meter.

Good point, I won't be investing in a pH meter just yet, I can't justify the cost right now
 
In days of yore the answer to a problem like this was always 'the junction'. If you look at the end of your electrode you will see three things sticking out. One is a glass bulb (the pH sensor), another is usually a silvery thing which is the temperature sensor (RTD) and the third is some sort of frit whose job is to let electrolyte flow from the body into the test solution. This is the junction. If it becomes fouled, electrolyte can flow, the requisite electrical circuit is incomplete and there are problems with readings. Junction fouling used to be very common, hence suspicion of this was the first thing that came to mind whenever there was a problem.

However, if the bulb becomes coated (in brewing sugars and proteins are the usual culprits) response slows but slow response is also normal for an aging electrode. Today, even with a bargain basement meter, you should get appreciably more than a year.

Thus it is probable that the bulb is coated or the junction is fouled. In either case cleaning with an enzyme based cleaner should do the job but do be sure it is enzyme based (example: Zymit works very well for jobs like this).

Good luck with it!

Thanks for the tip! I'll take a look at this this weekend. (Cleaning solution just showed up yesterday.)

My MW102 has a separate temp and Ph probe but I'll definitely keep an eye out for the junction on the probe.

I'll also closely read my cleaning solution to see if it's enzyme-based or not. (I'd imagine that that means it needs a long contact time if it is.)



-Should I be storing my PH testing solutions at a specific temp to increase their longevity? How long before these things go bad?

Adam
 
Waiting for ajs masterful debunking of 5.2.....

It IS masterful but he's already written it out a few times; the OP should use the search feature to find it. It's definitely worth reading but ultimately says the same thing as Denny (but with the supporting data). -Very unlikely to work; makes beer taste funny because it loads it with tons of salt.
 
http://www.experimentalbrew.com - the website for the book


Denny,

Congrats on the book, excited to see where it might go; looking at the website I think I'm going to like it already.

Are you planning on self publishing, trying to get a publisher to pick it up, or do you already have a publisher? -Just trying to dial-in on the estimated Spring 2014 release date (IMHO, as soon as BP touches a book, as great as they seem to be, it pushes back the release date by about a full year if the author has been independently writing their own manuscript, so I'm curious.)


Adam
 
Denny,

Congrats on the book, excited to see where it might go; looking at the website I think I'm going to like it already.

Are you planning on self publishing, trying to get a publisher to pick it up, or do you already have a publisher? -Just trying to dial-in on the estimated Spring 2014 release date (IMHO, as soon as BP touches a book, as great as they seem to be, it pushes back the release date by about a full year if the author has been independently writing their own manuscript, so I'm curious.)


Adam

It's being published by Quayside in Minneapolis....assuming they don't back out before we finish it! I doubt that it will be out before summer, in reality. I contributed to another one from them that should be out in the spring....Commercial Beer Recipes for Homebrewers.
 
Unless you have horrible water the typical thing for the grains to do in the mash is to pull your pH down to the proper level.

Most base malts, if mashed with DI water, will come to a pH of 5.6 - 5.8. If the water contains any alkalinity the pH will be higher. Thus while malt does naturally establish a low pH (relative to the neutral pH of 7 at any rate) it is not low enough in most cases. Most beers require that acid be added.

If the malts involved are highly colored they can pull the pH to levels appreciably lower than the range given above. If there are enough of such malts in a grist the mash pH can be pulled too low and instead of adding acid it is necessary to add alkali.
 
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