Flat beer from keg?

Hi
Im kinda knew to kegging first time i did it came out awsome.Last two have been flat tasting,Im doing everything the same.For some reason the beer just taste flat even though there is head on the beer.
Ive got the beer at about 12 psi was running it lower but didnt seem to get that good of head.i tried the shake trick at first to get it carbed up real quick,and its been in there for about 3 weeks and still taste flat to me and everyone else.the last batch was the same way,but the cork had got knocked off the carboy so i thought maybe it had gotten contaminated and thats why it didnt taste good.Anyways i know the keg wasnt sanitized it was rinsed out, is that casuing this? This is a combined effort with me and my friend I always come over and make it and hes been kegging them.Any advice much apperciated.
im using a corny keg and its in mini fridege,with the hose ran out the top if any of that matters.
thanks

A good head won't mean good carbonation. How long is your hose and is it a normal beverage line (thick walls...very narrow openning).

If your hose is too short (insert SWMBO comment jokes here) then you'll lose a lot of carbonation because there is not enough resistance to keep the beer pressurized during the pour.

I have good luck with 5-6 feet of hose. The other thing is, before your pour, set your PSI down to about 8....bleed off the excess pressure from the keg...and then pour. Sometimes, too much serving pressure can push the beer to hard and result in a large head but little retained carbonation.

Hi
Im guessing the hose is about 4 foot maybe a little less maybe a little more but id say more likely less,the setup is at my friends.We do all the brewing there.Im not sure what kind of hose it is.A buddy of mine let me borrow the setup indefinetly.

epic501j said:

Hi
Im guessing the hose is about 4 foot maybe a little less maybe a little more but id say more likely less,the setup is at my friends.We do all the brewing there.Im not sure what kind of hose it is.A buddy of mine let me borrow the setup indefinetly.

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I would definitly check to make sure you're using a beverage hose. Get that length up to 6 feet, turn down your PSI when you serve and see if that helps.

well swung bye the brew store and they told me i should crank up the preasure to 40 lbs and that id never get any carbonation at 12 psi

epic501j said:

well swung bye the brew store and they told me i should crank up the preasure to 40 lbs and that id never get any carbonation at 12 psi

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Just remember to back it down after a couple days. I don't think you want to be serving w/ 40 psi.

epic501j said:

well swung bye the brew store and they told me i should crank up the preasure to 40 lbs and that id never get any carbonation at 12 psi

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There's a "fast carb" technique that involves 40 psi and rocking your chilled keg on your knee, but you wouldn't leave it at 40psi for very long. That's more CO2 than what soda has, and there aren't any beer styles that call for that much pressure.

I usually carb my wheat beers around 16psi at 44 deg F, and have used 12 psi at that temp before as well. You'll get carbonation for sure.

What temp are you kegs at? What style of beer? That should at least tell you the proper settings to get to the styles CO2 levels.

40 PSI seems way to hi to me. I usually force carbonate at 25 PSi for 5-7 days;.

Then release most of the pressure to serve. Then I'll crank it back up to 10-12 PSI for storage and release to serve again. I'm sure this uses more CO2 but I like my beer with a lot of carbonation some folks don't.

Like muncher says you can dispense at a hi pressure get a big head but you have released most of the CO2 and the beer will taste flat.
That's the reason I dispense at a level just barely sufficent to push the beer out.

That being said, not having a clean and sanitized cornie is a pretty sure fire way to mess your beer up.

abracadabra said:

...I dispense at a level just barely sufficent to push the beer out...

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I have a friend who say he carbs his cornies, de-gasses, sets his gage on 0 (zero), opens his tap (glass underneath, or use a friend), then slowly turns the screw to add pressure to push the beer. When he gets the brew looking/pouring good he stops turning the screw and leaves it there.

Says it works for him all the time.

Man, people really need some educating on how to balance their kegging system! All this talk about 40 psi, barely any psi, it doesn't make any sense. You determine the CO2 volumes you want to carbonate at, the temperature you're serving at, the required psi, and the appropriate line length so its got the right serving pressure. Then you set your reg, let it carb (maybe a week), and serve at the same pressure. Simple.

Here's a good link: www.hbd.org/clubs/franklin/public_html/docs/balance.html

For the typical beers that I keep on tap, at the temperatures I serve, that usually means 11-13 psi with 5 ft of beer line.

epic501j said:

well swung bye the brew store and they told me i should crank up the preasure to 40 lbs and that id never get any carbonation at 12 psi

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Before you accept any advice these knuckleheads give you, check here first.

epic501j said:

well swung bye the brew store and they told me i should crank up the preasure to 40 lbs and that id never get any carbonation at 12 psi

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You may want to consider buying your stuff on-line.

To say you'd never get any carb at 12PSI is...um...WRONG.

I have two non-shake methods that work for me...both are based on a 37 degree conditioning temp:

1) If I'm in no hurry, 12PSI for ten days.
2) If I need it quicker, 30PSI for 4 days...close manifold valve and bleed, then set to 12PSI for 2 more days.

Serve at 8PSI using 6 feet of line.

My method, at least for bitters, is to set the fridge around 55 degrees and set the regulator at 12 PSI. After about a week it's carbed to around 1.9 volumes, and with 5 feet of beer line the serving pressure is pretty much right. The only time I jack the regulator higher to around 14 PSI is if I'm carbing hefes (also turning the temp down a bit to the mid 40s), but that also has the side effect of giving you a lot of foam on the pour with only 5 feet of line.

Lil' Sparky said:

Man, people really need some educating on how to balance their kegging system! All this talk about 40 psi, barely any psi, it doesn't make any sense. You determine the CO2 volumes you want to carbonate at, the temperature you're serving at, the required psi, and the appropriate line length so its got the right serving pressure. Then you set your reg, let it carb (maybe a week), and serve at the same pressure. Simple.

Here's a good link: www.hbd.org/clubs/franklin/public_html/docs/balance.html

For the typical beers that I keep on tap, at the temperatures I serve, that usually means 11-13 psi with 5 ft of beer line.


Before you accept any advice these knuckleheads give you, check here first.

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I'm just doing what works for me with the equipment I've got on hand. If I serve at 11-13 PSI all I get is a ton of foam and an almost flat beer by the time I've knocked all the foam off.

Plus I'm not interested in serving at the "correct temp or carbonation level" I'm looking to serve at the temps and carbonation level I like.

here's a quote from the site Lil Sparky sights:

Both of these sites are geared toward commercial draft systems, and base their calculations on using a higher than equilibrium pressure on the keg to push the beer. This will cause the beer to absorb additional CO2 over time, resulting in overcarbonated beer. Both sites stress that the entire keg needs to be dispensed in a relatively short period of time (a few days).

I don't drink my keg in "a few days".

There are a couple of guys in my brewclub who swear you can lower your pressure to 5psi after fully carbing at 15psi and never change the carbonation level. I'm no scientist, but I am 99% positive that this is BS. If your keg is at 2 volumes at a certain temp/pressure, lowering the pressure even ONE psi is going to bring the volumes down given enough time.

I think what happens is two fold. First, the intial carbing pressure of say 15 is not quite fully equalized into the beer when the pressure is dialed down. You might think you have the calculated volumes but you really don't. Perhaps it's closer to that of 8 psi. Then you dial down to serve at say 5 psi. The keg probably gets kicked well before the volumes equalize at the 5 psi level.

This theory is supported by those who say that their beer tends to overcarb if left at a steady pressure for say 3 weeks. I've also heard the theory that beer overcarbs as the level in the keg drops (er, don't buy it...more time has just passed). This could all be the result of the gauge reading way off too.


If you've got a good 7-8 feet of 3/16" bev line to your faucet and you're still getting foam, you're probably running over 15psi and don't know it.

Lil' Sparky said:

Before you accept any advice these knuckleheads give you, check here first.

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Heh... there are two different camps on serving pressures even here.

abracadabra said:

I'm just doing what works for me with the equipment I've got on hand. If I serve at 11-13 PSI all I get is a ton of foam and an almost flat beer by the time I've knocked all the foam off.

Plus I'm not interested in serving at the "correct temp or carbonation level" I'm looking to serve at the temps and carbonation level I like.

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That's cool. Have you checked out the pages on how to balance your system, though? You shouldn't get the foam if it's done right. If it works for you and you don't feel like changing anything, by all means don't. I mean it's your beer.

My point was that there is a easier way to do things. When I have one keg blow, I just hook up the next one, wait a week, pour and drink. No dorking around with the regulator back and fourth. I really don't ever change it. And I get a perfect pour from the first pint to the last.

Bobby_M said:

Heh... there are two different camps on serving pressures even here.

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Yeah, but only ONE of us is right.

The only way to get this right on one pass is to balance your system as mentioned above, set to serving pressure, set to serving temperature and forget about it until the beer tells you it's ready.

If you insist on doing anything other than that so yourself a favor-
Pressure, temperature, length of beer line, diameter of beer line...
Pick one and one only to vary.

Don't change the pressure and shake and change out your beer line.

That's why we have so many crackpot theories on what works none of which are reproducable.

Reproducable.
Reproducable.
Reproducable.

Lil' Sparky said:

That's cool. Have you checked out the pages on how to balance your system, though? You shouldn't get the foam if it's done right. If it works for you and you don't feel like changing anything, by all means don't. I mean it's your beer.

My point was that there is a easier way to do things. When I have one keg blow, I just hook up the next one, wait a week, pour and drink. No dorking around with the regulator back and fourth. I really don't ever change it. And I get a perfect pour from the first pint to the last.

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The web page you sighted says it's designed for commercial purposes and dispensing the keg in a few days. But if it works for you that's great.

I know that part of the reason I get lots of foam is my hose is too short but that's what came with the system I purchased and dropping the pressure is an easy and effective solution until I have something permanent.

Closing the valve on the gas out side of the reg. and popping up the pressure relief valve for a second doesn't seem like a BFD to me.

Plus I'd have to say that I seem to be getting as many kegs out of the same volume of CO2 as anyone else so the little bit of extra gas I may be using doesn't seem to make much if any difference.

Additionally I know that there are probably many people out there with new kegging systems that have a short hose and a picnic tap. So that's who my advise is targeting. Not the guys with kegerator setups.

abracadabra said:

The web page you sighted says it's designed for commercial purposes and dispensing the keg in a few days. But if it works for you that's great.

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I think you read through it a little fast. Here's what it really says.

<snip>
I have used information obtained from http://kegman.net/balance.html and from http://www.simgo.com/draft1.htm to develop this information for homebrewers.

Both of these sites are geared toward commercial draft systems, and base their calculations on using a higher than equilibrium pressure on the keg to push the beer. This will cause the beer to absorb additional CO2 over time, resulting in overcarbonated beer. Both sites stress that the entire keg needs to be dispensed in a relatively short period of time (a few days).

We homebrewers usually have several kegs on tap for somewhat extended periods of time (several weeks to a few months) and this would be unsatisfactory for us. So we need to maintain a balanced system to keep our beer from losing or gaining carbonation while it is on tap. When I refer to a system being balanced, it means that you maintain a constant temperature and CO2 pressure on your kegs to maintain a consistent carbonation level in your beer, and calibrate the line size and length to dispense the beer without an excess of foaming or carbonation loss.
</snip>

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abracadabra said:

I know that part of the reason I get lots of foam is my hose is too short but that's what came with the system I purchased and dropping the pressure is an easy and effective solution until I have something permanent.

Closing the valve on the gas out side of the reg. and popping up the pressure relief valve for a second doesn't seem like a BFD to me.

Plus I know that there are probably many people out there with new kegging systems. And a short hose with picnic taps. So that's who my advise is targeting. Not the guys with kegerator setups.

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Why not just get the correct length line then? You're going to need longer lines in the future anyway, unless you insist on an unbalanced system. It's not expensive, so it doesn't seem like it would be any BFD.

I use picnic taps right now until I build my kegerator, so my advise targets those same people as well. The balancing equations still apply.

Lil' Sparky said:

Why not just get the correct length line then? You're going to need longer lines in the future anyway, unless you insist on an unbalanced system. It's not expensive, so it doesn't seem like it would be any BFD.

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I'm probably in the same boat as a lot of other keggers...I have unbalanced lines.

My tower came with 5' hoses. Some beers use 6', weizens start with 8' then get cut shorter, while some others use 5'.

With a twin tower (2 taps) I'd have to tear my tower and faucets apart, cut the hose off the barbs on both ends and discard the (now) short hose EVERY TIME I change out a keg. That's rediculous.

Got a better idea? I've read connectors/extension don't work.

Bill, I'd personally use two different lengths on the system. On one, make it 9 feet, the other 8 feet. Tend to put your hefe's on the 8 foot side. Putting an English ale on the 9 foot is no big deal though, because....

Putting a high pressure beer on a short line gives you a glass of foam.
Putting a low pressure beer on a long line just makes it pour a little slower (lesser of two evils).


I don't have a problem with people going through the extra trouble of messing with different serving pressures but let's not try to convince anyone that it's NOT extra trouble. I walk to my kegger and pour. That's it. I might pour 10 pints in that session, maybe just one. I might not pour in the next 5 days (haha) or whatever but the one thing that stays true is that I don't touch the Fing regulator ;-)

The only way to maintain a constant temp is if you have a chest type freezer or drill a hole in the side of the fridge for a tap otherwise when you open the fridge the temp rises.

And I intend to get longer hose it's just not hi on my to do list.

Like I said my advise is for someone experiencing trouble. To give them an idea of a quick fix not necessarily a permanent solution. If someone is looking for advise on building a kegerator I won't be posting.

Furthermore I think it's possible to disagree w/o being disagreeable. But calling people knuckleheads because you happen to disagree with them is completely uncalled for.

Bobby_M said:

Bill, I'd personally use two different lengths on the system. On one, make it 9 feet, the other 8 feet. Tend to put your hefe's on the 8 foot side. Putting an English ale on the 9 foot is no big deal though, because....

Putting a high pressure beer on a short line gives you a glass of foam.
Putting a low pressure beer on a long line just makes it pour a little slower (lesser of two evils).


I don't have a problem with people going through the extra trouble of messing with different serving pressures but let's not try to convince anyone that it's NOT extra trouble. I walk to my kegger and pour. That's it. I might pour 10 pints in that session, maybe just one. I might not pour in the next 5 days (haha) or whatever but the one thing that stays true is that I don't touch the Fing regulator ;-)

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OK, I'll see how much hose I have left in storage. I definitely have enough for changing out one that I know of.

I killed a HW keg last night and replaced it with my "My Bud is Steamed @ Me" brew. I hope it's cold enough to tap when I get home tonight.

Thanks.

im going to stop by and get one of these later to extend one of my beer lines to about 8 feet.

http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/hoses/splicers/SSS-B2.shtml

I remember someone saying spliced hoses are not the way to go. Something about restriction and stripping the O2 from the brew as it passes. I could be wrong.

Anyone? Beuller??

It would theoretically create a spot for turbulance and knock some CO2 out of solution. This is why smooth bore beverage tubing is so essential. I mean, bev tubing is only about 50 cents a foot. It's not that bad to buy a couple lengths of 10 feet each.

Right, Bobby...it's that 2 hour round trip drive and $15.00 in gas to buy $4.00 worth of hose that'll get ya...

I hope your not serious. Shipping from an online HBS is much cheaper than that. Just get it the next time you buy ingredients.

Yes...I was only joking...