How do you bypass a 2 position selector switch for automated brewing?`

In my original panel design I was planning on using a 2 position selector switch to select EITHER my 5500 watt BK element, OR my 5500 watt HLT element ala Ohio-Ed and Kal's panels.

This makes sense in Manual control because it keeps both elements from being fired at the same time and overloading my electrical supply causing the breaker to trip (50A GFCI) because of overcurrent.

It seems to me that if I have the BK selected and I'm running an automated brew session with Brewtroller then the HLT will not be able to be fired unless I turn the switch each time it needs to be in use, thus limiting the functionality of the automated process. What is my work around for this?

Maybe a switch in front of that one that is either BTroll/Manual where manual lets the BK/HLT one work and BTroll bypasses the switch and lets the BTroll decide?

Just brainstorming don't quote me on any of that

Possibly....... I need to take a closer look at Ohio-Ed's since he's using BCS for automated I'm sure he had the same issue.

Back to the research!

EuBrew said:

Possibly....... I need to take a closer look at Ohio-Ed's since he's using BCS for automated I'm sure he had the same issue.

Back to the research!

Click to expand...

In my drawing, manual intervention is required to switch HLT / BK, regardless of auto or manual mode.

The BCS doesn't give a hoot about your capacity, so it is possible to program the BCS to fire both at the same time. There is no provision in the BCS to "Lock Out" an output based on your overall electrical capacity. I asked about a feature like that on the BCS forum, but the idea didn't get much traction.

So, for now, I have to switch the selector by hand. My process is not lights out automated anyway. The BCS processes take me to a point requiring manual intervention, sounds an alarm, and holds until told to goto the next step / process.

Ohio-Ed said:

In my drawing, manual intervention is required to switch HLT / BK, regardless of auto or manual mode.

The BCS doesn't give a hoot about your capacity, so it is possible to program the BCS to fire both at the same time. There is no provision in the BCS to "Lock Out" an output based on your overall electrical capacity. I asked about a feature like that on the BCS forum, but the idea didn't get much traction.

So, for now, I have to switch the selector by hand. My process is not lights out automated anyway. The BCS processes take me to a point requiring manual intervention, sounds an alarm, and holds until told to goto the next step / process.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I was just looking through your thread again and didn't see anywhere that would cover this, meaning being able to bypass the selector switches. I'm thinking outloud here, but if I have both elements in Auto mode then when I program BT I would program it to where the elements wouldn't be on at the same time anyway. This leaves me with the selector switch to deal with in manual. Need to figure out how I can use the selector in manual, then bypass it in auto........ hmmmmmmmmmm gotta think some more on this. I wonder about making it a DPDT switch where one pole would be manual, the other would be Auto.................

I posted this in the BT forum too so HOPEFULLY I'll get some sort of feedback there.

Thanks Ed!

Use a relay to bypass the switch in Auto.

evanmars said:

Use a relay to bypass the switch in Auto.

Click to expand...

I think its a bit more complex than that...

If you want the BT to be able to control both elements and you are counting on it NOT firing both at the same time, then you need to also "lock out" BOTH Manual positons on the individual Element selectors so you don't Manually fire one while the BT is controlling the other.

So... I think you need to bypass all three switches if you want to depend on the BT to limit which is on.

Ed

I vote a hammer.

yeah....... this one is way beyond my skill set.........

Have to finish my drawing with just the selector switch first then maybe I can see a workaround.

Still brainstorming...


If you used a 3-POS selector with 1 set of NC blocks and one set of NO blocks on them couldn't you wire it BK-Auto-HLT

Wired so the only way the BTroll gets control is on the Auto position...


This appears to work in my head and on my scribble (no you can't see this one either...) but not sure in practice.


But you have to be sure you program your BTroll so it never fires both at once...cause it could. But that would be a programming/software error not a hardware error

JayInJersey said:

Still brainstorming...


If you used a 3-POS selector with 1 set of NC blocks and one set of NO blocks on them couldn't you wire it BK-Auto-HLT

Wired so the only way the BTroll gets control is on the Auto position...


This appears to work in my head and on my scribble (no you can't see this one either...) but not sure in practice.


But you have to be sure you program your BTroll so it never fires both at once...cause it could. But that would be a programming/software error not a hardware error

Click to expand...

I really like this idea best if it can work, this way it will keep my panel cleaner.

Where's CodeRage when we need him

I was thinking something like this:

evanmars said:

I was thinking something like this:

Click to expand...

If you did very similar on the control lines of the SSR instead of the AC to the elements, you could get by with much smaller relays.

Ohio-Ed said:

If you did very similar on the control lines of the SSR instead of the AC to the elements, you could get by with much smaller relays.

Click to expand...

I was pondering the use of extra contact blocks to accomplish this and I took a look at your selector switch. I'm a little confused how the selector works on your system now.

You have 1 NO and 1 NC contact block on a 2 position selector switch right?
Then if you switch one direction and activate the NO block it's now closed, and so is the NC in it's normal state. Switch the other direction and you basically have 2 open contacts?

How does this configuration keep you from firing both elements? To me it looks like it makes it impossible to not fire both elements, what am I missing here?

I am really tired after pulling an all nighter (classic insomniac), and I am having trouble keeping my eyes open but this will work. You can probably simplify it. You can combine relay 2 and 3 into one double pole single throw relay if you wish. With S1 in the BK position Relay 1 will energize connecting the Brewtroller BK outout to the BK SSR and the HLT output is disengaged. With S1 in the HLT position Relay 4 will energize connecting the Brewtroller HLT outout to the HLT SSR and the BK output is disengaged. With S1 in the AUTO position both Brewtroller outputs are connected to their respective SSR's. I hope it is what you are looking for, as there is no rocket science here.

EuBrew said:

I was pondering the use of extra contact blocks to accomplish this and I took a look at your selector switch. I'm a little confused how the selector works on your system now.

You have 1 NO and 1 NC contact block on a 2 position selector switch right?
Then if you switch one direction and activate the NO block it's now closed, and so is the NC in it's normal state. Switch the other direction and you basically have 2 open contacts?

How does this configuration keep you from firing both elements? To me it looks like it makes it impossible to not fire both elements, what am I missing here?

Click to expand...

The 2 selector "actuator" switches both blocks, not one at a time.
So when one is open the other is closed, and oposite in the other position.

I think SawDustGuy's drawing is what you're looking for.

Be careful programing the BT. But the reality is, if you accidentally fire both elements, and nothing else is on, it will run (should be like 45 - 50amps depending on your voltage at the time). Worst case, if all else is right, you trip a breaker.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

The 2 selector "actuator" switches both blocks, not one at a time.
So when one is open the other is closed, and oposite in the other position.

I think SawDustGuy's drawing is what you're looking for.

Be careful programing the BT. But the reality is, if you accidentally fire both elements, and nothing else is on, it will run (should be like 45 - 50amps depending on your voltage at the time). Worst case, if all else is right, you trip a breaker.

Ed

Click to expand...

Actually Ed the BT works by calling specific operations like "HLT Fill (and heat)", "Fill", "Mash", "Sparge", "Boil", "Chill" etc. Only one of these operations can run at a time so having his BK and HLT element on at the same time can not happen.

Ohio-Ed said:

The 2 selector "actuator" switches both blocks, not one at a time.
So when one is open the other is closed, and oposite in the other position.

I think SawDustGuy's drawing is what you're looking for.

Be careful programing the BT. But the reality is, if you accidentally fire both elements, and nothing else is on, it will run (should be like 45 - 50amps depending on your voltage at the time). Worst case, if all else is right, you trip a breaker.

Ed

Click to expand...

Yeah I had one of those DUH moments at 4:00 this morning when I was taking a leak, it dawned on me that both contacts are activated when you turn the selector on the 2 position switches.

I'm pretty sure I'm stupid:cross:

Sawdustguy said:

I am really tired after pulling an all nighter (classic insomniac), and I am having trouble keeping my eyes open but this will work. You can probably simplify it. You can combine relay 2 and 3 into one double pole single throw relay if you wish. With S1 in the BK position Relay 1 will energize connecting the Brewtroller BK outout to the BK SSR and the HLT output is disengaged. With S1 in the HLT position Relay 4 will energize connecting the Brewtroller HLT outout to the HLT SSR and the BK output is disengaged. With S1 in the AUTO position both Brewtroller outputs are connected to their respective SSR's. I hope it is what you are looking for, as there is no rocket science here.

Click to expand...

mmmmmm very interesting...... I like!

But as you say there's no rocket surgery here..... I'm still wondering about adding a couple contact blocks to a switch making it a DPDT switch, but like I said, I rode the short bus to electronics design class.

I'll ponder this and try to come up with a drawing, but not likely soon, tomorrow is the 1 year anniversary for me and the SWMBO so she's probably got plans for me today.

Not exactly sure how to draw this but I may be able to walk you through my thinking in the diagram below. BrewTroller has 3 pin headers that are designed to be wired to a 3 position switch.
Pin 1 = BrewTroller
Pin 2 = Relay
Pin 3 = Ground

When Pin 1 and 2 are connected BrewTroller (auto) is enabled
When pin 2 and 3 are connected Manual (On) is enabled

Since the relay is the common denominator in the switches, it controls if you are in manual or auto control.

Would it work to wire the relays from the BK and the HLT to a 3 Position selector switch with 2 NC contact blocks? In this scenario if the switch is in the off position (center) then both relays are closed and lead to their respective 3 Position Selector Switches. If you turn the switch one way it opens the relay of one element preventing it from being fired, and since we're using NC contact blocks the other stays closed allowing it to function in either auto or manual depending on where you have the selector on the element switch.

This does not prevent you from firing both elements in manual if you have the selector in the center (auto) for the bypass switch, but it does solve the problem of a 2 position switch which only allows 1 element to fire at a time no matter which position the selector is in.

I'm going to be running the system anyway so as long as I know if the bypass is in auto then I could fire both in manual, and not do that then I should be good right? See the drawing below and see if my lame attempt and explanation makes any sense.

Sawdustguy said:

Actually Ed the BT works by calling specific operations like "HLT Fill (and heat)", "Fill", "Mash", "Sparge", "Boil", "Chill" etc. Only one of these operations can run at a time so having his BK and HLT element on at the same time can not happen.

Click to expand...

Well, Like I said, I have zero experience with the BT (but I am interested in learning a bit)
Are the operations predefined and tied to a single output each?
Can you start heating the BK during sparge once you have collected enough wort to cover the element? If so, there is kind of a fine line between heating the HLT for sparge water and heating the BK. So would the BT be switching "Operations" back and forth to heat the HLT & BK?

This is a situation where the BCS could have 2 processes running simultaneously and end up firing both elements pretty easily unless you were creative.

Ed

Ohio-Ed said:

Well, Like I said, I have zero experience with the BT (but I am interested in learning a bit)
Are the operations predefined and tied to a single output each?
Can you start heating the BK during sparge once you have collected enough wort to cover the element? If so, there is kind of a fine line between heating the HLT for sparge water and heating the BK. So would the BT be switching "Operations" back and forth to heat the HLT & BK?

This is a situation where the BCS could have 2 processes running simultaneously and end up firing both elements pretty easily unless you were creative.

Ed

Click to expand...

There is an operation in the BT that can do that. The real difference between the brewtroller and the BCS460 is the BT's ability to measure volume which allows a totally automated brew (except adding gain and hops). Another cool thing the BT can do is average multiple sensors during the mash to get a more precise temperature of the mash while recirculating. The last feature of the brewtroller that sets it apart is that you enter the amount of grain and desired batch size, what type of sparge etc. and the brewtroller will calculate everything for you. The BCS460 is a good system, no denying that, but the brewtroller can do some things the BCS460 can not but at the expense of being more DIY intensive.

Sawdustguy,

did you take a look at my post with the crappy drawing? Would this work?

EuBrew said:

Not exactly sure how to draw this but I may be able to walk you through my thinking in the diagram below. BrewTroller has 3 pin headers that are designed to be wired to a 3 position switch.
Pin 1 = BrewTroller
Pin 2 = Relay
Pin 3 = Ground

When Pin 1 and 2 are connected BrewTroller (auto) is enabled
When pin 2 and 3 are connected Manual (On) is enabled

Since the relay is the common denominator in the switches, it controls if you are in manual or auto control.

Would it work to wire the relays from the BK and the HLT to a 3 Position selector switch with 2 NC contact blocks? In this scenario if the switch is in the off position (center) then both relays are closed and lead to their respective 3 Position Selector Switches. If you turn the switch one way it opens the relay of one element preventing it from being fired, and since we're using NC contact blocks the other stays closed allowing it to function in either auto or manual depending on where you have the selector on the element switch.

This does not prevent you from firing both elements in manual if you have the selector in the center (auto) for the bypass switch, but it does solve the problem of a 2 position switch which only allows 1 element to fire at a time no matter which position the selector is in.

I'm going to be running the system anyway so as long as I know if the bypass is in auto then I could fire both in manual, and not do that then I should be good right? See the drawing below and see if my lame attempt and explanation makes any sense.

Click to expand...

I think I'm losing track of your requirement... I thought you wanted to make sure both elements could not be fired at the same time in manual mode, but the BT could control either in auto mode. I think SawDustGuy's drawing gives you this.

So, the bolded statement above confuses me. Are you trying to eliminate the use of relays?

Ohio-Ed said:

So, the bolded statement above confuses me. Are you trying to eliminate the use of relays?

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Yeah, I'd rather not incorporate a bunch of relays to accomplish this, especially if I can do it with contact blocks and a 3 position switch instead of the 2. I'll have to put some more thought into it and study Sawdustguy's diagram a little harder. I'm sneaking some time on HBT anyway since today is my first anniversary with the SWMBO, I sure am glad she likes beer