kegged....man, I got some questions...

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Ol' Grog

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Kegged last night, Friday just didn't work. Well, kegged and brewed. Anyway, this isn't as straight forward as I thought.
First, the standard 5 gallon brew was way too much. I bet I waisted about 4 beers. Almost made me cry but I couldn't remember how much sugar to put in an individual bottle (as opposed to priming a whole batch for bottling).
Second, I was playing around with the regulator and tank pressure while I was shaking the corny, some of the brew foamed up inside the pressure line. I didn't think that was possible. But, if there is no pressure on the feed line, then of course, there is nothing to prevent a "back foam" I concluded. Hope this is correct.
Third, I let of some of the pressure in the keg via the pressure relief valve and then the thing wouldn't seat or something because it started hissing, this was at about 20 psi. Is there a trick to those things? I read somewhere that you can actually turned them a certain way and "lock" it in????
Fourth, and the most difficult part to understand. I pressurized it up to about 30 psi. Shook it with the regulator off, and the pressure started going down. I will assume that the brew was absorbing the CO2. Well, it does that at any pressure. I currently have it in the garage and it's about 65. According to the charts, I need to pressurize it to about 25 to 26 psi. Do I still shake it? How long will it have to sit in that pressure? How do I know when it's done? What's stopping me from letting it sit at say 15 psi for one week? But again, how will I know when it's done?
Appreciate ANY REPLY's...........
 
1/2 tsp should work for bottle priming.

I would not shake the keg without having CO2 on it...you could get backflow into your regulator and trash it which is an expensive mistake.

No idea about your pressure relief valve, there's many different kinds but it should seat back.

You really need to get your keg chilled down towards serving temps and then use the chart. You'll probably be putting 12-16psi to it.

I avoid all that shaking crap by just racking to keg, putting it in the kegerator, and setting my final psi (around 14psi in my case). It's always ready within a week which is fine by me.

Don't mean to sound obvious, but it's ready when you pour it and it's carb'ed to your satisfaction :D
 
Thanks. It didn't back flow into the regulator. I immeadiately applied pressure and blew the foam back into the keg. I hope that pressure line was sanitized. It should at least be clean, it was brand new, out of the bag. I thought we had to shake them. I mean, does the brew slowly and eventually absorb the CO2 even though there is a tiny amount of head space in the corny for the CO2? I mean, won't the top area get absorbed first and then "quit?" That was what I trying to figure out. Is there a saturation point for the brews whereas it won't absorb any more CO2 and then that tells you it's done? What will happen if I pressurize it under the chart pressures? Just takes longer?
 
The laws of physics and mother nature will take care of carbing your beer very nicely without needing any help from us interfering humans. The only circumstance where you would want to shake the cornie is to have the beer carbed 'right away'.

Connect your CO2, adjust to the correct serving pressure and let nature do the rest. Come back in a few days, et voila!
 
If you pressurize to the chart pressure (and leave it alone) it will be fine in about a week. As the ale absorbs CO2, more CO2 bleeds into the keg. The ale keeps mixing and absorbing CO2 until it's done. Since the ale has to age anyway, nothing you to to speed up carbonation changes when you can drink it. You're really making this about ten times as difficult as it is.
 
I know.... and I REALLY appreciate you guys!!!! I don't think I could be doing this without you.....I know for a fact I went kegging after reading all those pros about it. I guess I'm trying to become "one" with the brew. Understanding the process. Like my brew notes. From my first brew up till now, I don't take as much notes anymore because now I know and it's second nature almost. I'm a lot more confident that I ever was in the beginning.
 
david_42 said:
If you pressurize to the chart pressure (and leave it alone) it will be fine in about a week. As the ale absorbs CO2, more CO2 bleeds into the keg. The ale keeps mixing and absorbing CO2 until it's done. Since the ale has to age anyway, nothing you to to speed up carbonation changes when you can drink it. You're really making this about ten times as difficult as it is.

I think you can save a few days by shaking.

My theory on this is that the aging that you need doesn't happen until you get at least some of the CO2 into the beer. I've read on this forum that the CO2 interacts with the beer which is where the flavor from aging comes from. Also, that it ages better at room temp. I figure you should at least get that process started.

I hook it up, pressurize to about 30 lbs, shake the heck out of it and refrigerate still at 30 lbs. Then come in the next night, shake it again, make sure it's at 30 lbs and pull it out of the fridge. Let it set for about a week and a half and its carbed and tasting pretty good.

It's been working pretty good for me.
 
I would skip the one night in the fridge if I were you. No good comes from it. Pump it up to 30 lbs and store it at room temp if you want to......needless hot to cold cycles are to be avoided.

Or.....store it cold.....it ages just a little slower....it will take 3 -5 days lnoger to age......but it also lasts longer.
 
OK, let's discuss...full detail.
This was my rationale for kegging now without a cooler. Since we bottle at room temperature, I was just looking at the keg as one big bottle. It made more sense to me about letting it age at room temperatures as this has been discussed numerous times. The brew gets better with time. I currently have the keg in the garage, about mid 60's throughout the day, at about 17 psi. I started off at 30 psi and shook it up some. I dropped it to 17 about 3 hours later and there it sits since yesterday morning. I know beer will absorb more CO2 when it's cold, but how will I know or what do I do to determine if it has absorbed enough CO2 at those temperatures? The charts call for it to be around 20 or so psi. How long? Is there any way in telling? I'm still confused on this part. When it comes time to tap it, Friday night, I don't know how I'm going to chill it. I had originally thought about pouring it into a sealable jug, and then sticking it in the freezer for about 45 minutes. When I'm done pouring, I need to crank the CO2 back up, right? I mean, don't store it at 1 to 2 psi, correct????
So, in order to age, I can age it at room temperature, even though CO2 won't readily absorb into the beer. See? That's the confusion part......I have to have it cold to absorb the CO2, but it ages better at room temperature....where or where is the happy medium? If I keep it at 17 psi, will it still be good to go say 6 days later? Or does it have to be at that exact pressure setting formulated for the existing ambient temperature???? I know, I'm probably putting more into this than I should be, but I'm a pessimist by nature........if the glass is half empty....FILL IT UP!!!!!
 
I always store my kegs at room temperature. When I am aging the beer, I am really not to concerned with it being carbonated. I will pressurize the keg up a little to seal the opening. When I am going to tap the keg, I put it in the fridge and set the regulator at ~12psi. My fridge sits around 36F and I adjust the pressure within the next couple of days until I get the carbination to where I like it. I also serve at this pressure. Any higher and you will get foam or lower the beer will not pour well. In order to correctly carbonate then you will have to chill the keg down unless you primed the keg when the beer was transfered in. The beer will only absorb as much CO2 as it can at the temperature it is at. Best just pouring a beer and adjusting as necessary.
 
Ol Grog....you are making this too difficult. You are overthinking it.

You can age kegs cold or at room temp without much difference.

You pumped your keg up to 30 lbs and now it has dropped to 17 lbs. The co2 pressure that is missing has absorbed into the beer. You need a quick lesson on carb charts. Store your beer at a steady temp. The up and down temps of your garage is not the ideal storage temp. OK...back to your 17 lbs fo pressure...........................you need a constant temp to tell how much CO2 has been absorbed. Use the constant temp and look at the chart. If your pressure does not equal the pressure recommendation for that temp on the chart....then your beer has not absorbed enough co2 yet.

Example. I have a keg of Stout that I just kegged. It is 68 degrees and so is pantry where I am going to store it while it ages. My carb chart says that I need 17 lbs of pressure @ 68 degrees to force 1.7 volumes of co2 into suspension.

Anyway......I hook it to the bottle and pump 30 lbs into it and let it sit a couple of days. I check it and only have 8 lbs of pressure after 2 days. I hook it back up to the bottle and pump it up to 20 lbs and wait 2 or 3 days. I chck it then and the pressure is 15 lbs. I would say it is carbed now. Carbonation is directly proportional to temp. So as long as that keg sits at 68 degrees it is perfectly carbed.....But what happens when I throw it in a 40 degree fridge for a day or two??? The pressure inside the keg is going to drop. Is it still carbed correctly?? Lets check the chart. If the pressure in the cold keg is 3.6 lbs then it is still carbed to 1.7 volumes and is exactly what I wanted for my stout.

The trick is getting it out of the keg without altering the pressure. As the level inside the keg drops you will have to increase the pressure to get the beer out, but this will also overcarb the beer if you let it sit with the pressure turned up. I tend to adjust the pressure to where the beer pours correctly but I always release the pressure release and reset the regulator to 3.6 lbs before I go to bed that night. Once you know what your target pressure /temp is then you should have no problems.
 
anthrobe said:
I always store my kegs at room temperature. When I am aging the beer, I am really not to concerned with it being carbonated.
You should be warned that you have to have carbonation in the beer for it to age correctly. Co2 changes the PH of the beer. It also forms compounds such as carbonic acid which , in tandem with the PH change helps to mellow the flavors.

Beer will age uncarbed, but it will never reach maturity until you carb it.
 
Thanks. Clears up a lot of things. You guys ROCK!!!!
Good explaination . I need to crank up the pressure to the chart spec's and let it sit some more. Until I get a keg cooler, I'm going to be dealing with higher pressures. You don't think that will screw up the cornies do you???
 
Ol' Grog said:
Thanks. Clears up a lot of things. You guys ROCK!!!!
Good explaination . I need to crank up the pressure to the chart spec's and let it sit some more. Until I get a keg cooler, I'm going to be dealing with higher pressures. You don't think that will screw up the cornies do you???

No worries about the cornies. They have a built in pressure limit after which they will automatically bleed off excess CO2 anyway. I can't remember the exact PSI that the pressure relief valve will automatically bleed CO2, but I'm sure someone else here could give you the exact number.
 
I think they will handle 130 lbs. Don't quote me or try to pressurize them that much. I think I remember reading one of the vendors pressure tests to 130 lbs.
 
One question about shaking. Say it's at 30 psi. Turn off the gas, then shake. Beer then will flow into the pressure line, not good. So, pressure it up to 30 psi, take off the poppet valve, and then shake it like a rabid dog. Now, when I go to put the poppet valve back on, what psi do I need on the pressure hose? If it's too little, beer will surely run back up through the pressure line, if I hook it back up to 30 psi, I'm back to square one. All I have now is a cobra head dispenser. What psi do I need the keg to dispense without having a brew shower in my garage? Does it help if I hold the tap up high, above the keg? So, if I'm carbing at say 20 psi, the chart designated pressure, hook up the cobra tap, I need to bleed off the pressure inside the keg. If I back it off from the regulator, won't brew come back up through the pressure line?
I know.....I know.......questions, questions, questions.................
 
Ol' Grog said:
One question about shaking. Say it's at 30 psi. Turn off the gas, then shake. Beer then will flow into the pressure line, not good. So, pressure it up to 30 psi, take off the poppet valve, and then shake it like a rabid dog. Now, when I go to put the poppet valve back on, what psi do I need on the pressure hose? If it's too little, beer will surely run back up through the pressure line, if I hook it back up to 30 psi, I'm back to square one. All I have now is a cobra head dispenser. What psi do I need the keg to dispense without having a brew shower in my garage? Does it help if I hold the tap up high, above the keg? So, if I'm carbing at say 20 psi, the chart designated pressure, hook up the cobra tap, I need to bleed off the pressure inside the keg. If I back it off from the regulator, won't brew come back up through the pressure line?
I know.....I know.......questions, questions, questions.................
You are so overthinking the whole kegging process.

Forget shaking. Just dial up the correct pressure, based on the beer temerature and volumes of CO2 you want, hook it up to your cornie and let it sit for five to seven days. Your arms will thank you, and so will your tongue as the extra week of aging will help mellow out the flavor of the beer.
 
I never mentioned shaking because it is not necessary. You are still overthinking this.

No shaking the kegs. If you do not shake the then you do not have to worry about getting beer in the gas line. Read my long post again and pay attention this time.;)


As for dispensing pressure. You will have to see how your setup acts. The hose size and length make all the difference in the world. If your tap hose is long enough, you can despense at 20 lbs without having too much foam, but if your is too short you may have to back off on the regulator pressure and then release some keg pressure to keep it from foaming too much. It is OK to do this for an evening, but you should always turn the regulator pressure back up before you go to bed or pass out!

Relasing pressure inside the keg does not make the beer go flat instantly. CO2 stays in suspension and outgasses slowly, you never release all the pressure so the beer outgasses even slower. In short a few hours with the pressure turned down will not affect the cabonation level of the beer. The only way to change the carbonation level instantly is to shake it or heat it drastically, or pour it out!
 
Please forgive, master. I'm just a grasshopper and learning from your wisdom!!!!!! :) I read up on line lengths and all that, I just have a standard cobra tap that came with my kit and it was already put together. Hose is about 4 feet long and I know from the calculations that height and line size plays an important part of the resistance. It's not futile, you know????? Just trying to get an idea on keg pressures when I pop that puppy open this weekend.
OK, ya'll have convinced me to forgo the "shaking keg syndrome." Since I normally don't drink on weekdays anyway, one week of waiting and carbing at the specified psi is not going to be a problem. As noted earlier, I'm learning and soon all these ******* questions will be a distant memory.
But, I really appreciate the advice and wisdom. :mug:
You guys just plain and simply :rockin:
 
Come on man.......I am going to help you no matter how many questions you ask.:mug:

If you lived near me I would come over to your house and help you get your setup dialed in. But for now, this will have to do.
 
Thanks, I appreciate that....
Hairy palms???? I thought they only way you'd get that is if you'd pull your pants down and...........never mind....ha ha ha ha....
 
I had a really hard time figuring out what size hose and all of that when I looked at the charts. Luckily, Johnsma on this board gave me the easy solution.

For dispensing, order about 9 feet of 3/16ths hose per keg, set PSI at what you want. 12 lbs is a good number. Dispense. If you want more foam, but are happy with the carbonation, shorten the hose a foot at a time. the hose length and diameter affects foam, the pressure affects carbonation. Adjust accordingly.

I asked my father in law about the fridge and he was going to check, but I've not heard back yet.
 
Thanks. Getting itchy. I know I'm going to have to make a "shopping run" to OKC with the wife here pretty soon. Somehow, I just know that I'll be going by a Best Buy just to "look" at a Sanyo 4912. You know what that will mean....."What am I going to get for Christmas from you, honey??"
 
Ol' Grog said:
"What am I going to get for Christmas from you, honey??"

"How would you like to go away for a weekend by yourself to an all-inclusive spa?"

Then you get the whole weekend to brew!
 
Nah, my wife knows me toooo well. She'd think I'd have naked girls and stuff over at the house.....probably right!!!! (I wish)
 
Before I hooked my kegs up to taps I just had cobra taps. I still use them when I transport the keg to a remote beer drinking location such as a pig pickin'. The procedure to use is to carbonate your beer at whatever psi is appropriate, say 12 psi. When you get ready to dispense you need to turn the pressure on your regulator way down (probably in the 2-5psi range), blow off some pressure from the blowoff valve, and then serve beer. After a drinking session you can just turn the pressure back up to 12 (or wherever you had it).

You don't have to worry about beer backing up when you reduce the pressure because the gas "in" dip tube should not be in the wort...it should be above wort level.

It's certainly much easier when you move to true beer taps and balance the system with the proper length of line.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
Before I hooked my kegs up to taps I just had cobra taps. I still use them when I transport the keg to a remote beer drinking location such as a pig pickin'. The procedure to use is to carbonate your beer at whatever psi is appropriate, say 12 psi. When you get ready to dispense you need to turn the pressure on your regulator way down (probably in the 2-5psi range), blow off some pressure from the blowoff valve, and then serve beer. After a drinking session you can just turn the pressure back up to 12 (or wherever you had it).

You don't have to worry about beer backing up when you reduce the pressure because the gas "in" dip tube should not be in the wort...it should be above wort level.

It's certainly much easier when you move to true beer taps and balance the system with the proper length of line.
Good lord, too much work again complicating something so simple.

Figure out what pressure you need to carbonate to the Volumes of CO2 you want at XX temperature (consult the table). Then just set it and forget it. You don't need to bother with turning down the pressure to serve and hope you remember to turn the pressure back up afterwards.

Just figure out the right pressure (takes about two seconds using the charts), set the regulator, hook it up and THAT'S IT.
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
You don't have to worry about beer backing up when you reduce the pressure because the gas "in" dip tube should not be in the wort...it should be above wort level.

Correct me if I'm wrong... as I'm simply here to learn as well. I'm going to kegs soon and am also interested in force carbonation.

BUT... if my memory serves me correctly... wort is unfermented beer. If its in the keg, its not wort, right? ;)
 
JoeRags said:
Correct me if I'm wrong... as I'm simply here to learn as well. I'm going to kegs soon and am also interested in force carbonation.

BUT... if my memory serves me correctly... wort is unfermented beer. If its in the keg, its not wort, right? ;)
Your correct, should be beer.
 
bikebryan said:
Good lord, too much work again complicating something so simple.

Figure out what pressure you need to carbonate to the Volumes of CO2 you want at XX temperature (consult the table). Then just set it and forget it. You don't need to bother with turning down the pressure to serve and hope you remember to turn the pressure back up afterwards.

Just figure out the right pressure (takes about two seconds using the charts), set the regulator, hook it up and THAT'S IT.
This is utterly incorrect when using cobra taps. Most are several feet in length at best and absolutely will not tolerate 10-15psi of pressure.

Again...back to a question Walker-san asked quite a while back and which you never answered: Do you only come here to dispense criticism and sarcasm from your lofty brewstand?
 
JoeRags said:
Correct me if I'm wrong... as I'm simply here to learn as well. I'm going to kegs soon and am also interested in force carbonation.

BUT... if my memory serves me correctly... wort is unfermented beer. If its in the keg, its not wort, right? ;)


wort beer are you talking about???:p :mug:


Some of use like to use cornies as fermenters. Especially for Lagers. Ales are a little too active.
 
bikebryan said:
Good lord, too much work again complicating something so simple.

Figure out what pressure you need to carbonate to the Volumes of CO2 you want at XX temperature (consult the table). Then just set it and forget it. You don't need to bother with turning down the pressure to serve and hope you remember to turn the pressure back up afterwards.

Just figure out the right pressure (takes about two seconds using the charts), set the regulator, hook it up and THAT'S IT.

No... that's not. It might work fine with real taps where you can match the lines and everything, but with the short-line cobra taps you can't do this. What happens is that the beer foams a bunch in the glass and you are left with flat beer in the glass with a huge head on the top.

-walker
 
Baron von BeeGee said:
This is utterly incorrect when using cobra taps. Most are several feet in length at best and absolutely will not tolerate 10-15psi of pressure.

Again...back to a question Walker-san asked quite a while back and which you never answered: Do you only come here to dispense criticism and sarcasm from your lofty brewstand?
Huh? Very strange. I have three kegs, each using cobra taps. I usually have my pressure set at about 12 to 13 PSI. Using about 5.5 to 6 feet of line and a cobra tap, I have absolutely NO problems with foaming, at all, whatsoever.

All the folks I know who keg with cobras have the same setup as me, and all of us have zero problems.

Utterly incorrect? Wrong. Please refrain from using absolutes when the situation is NOT as you deem it.
 
Walker-san said:
No... that's not. It might work fine with real taps where you can match the lines and everything, but with the short-line cobra taps you can't do this. What happens is that the beer foams a bunch in the glass and you are left with flat beer in the glass with a huge head on the top.

-walker

Cobras work fine if you balance the system. You can balance the system just as fine using a cobra tap as you can using a tap attached to the door (or wherever) of you kegerator. I know. I do it. All my friends who have cobras do it. No problems, no glasses of foam, and nicely carbed glasses of beer after the pour.
 
bikebryan said:
All the folks I know who keg with cobras have the same setup as me, and all of us have zero problems.

I have to state that I utterly and absolutely agree with Bryan. No problems with cobra taps here, just need to balance the line same as a 'regular' tap.
 
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