How much does it cost to brew at the 3bbl level?

That chiller has a max flow of 1050 GPH. Sounds like it'll exceed your needs!

http://www.marchpump.com/documents/pumps_flow.aspx

There's a list of pumps from the source.

So are you planing some thing like the Laural wood in Portland? a small house converted into a Restaurant / brewery? Or just a brewery?

I don't know if its in your price range, but I like to day dream at this site.

3bbl system 19,500 OBO

FYI, the Laurelwood you're speaking of isn't the brewery. It's just a restaurant. The brewery is in NE Portland. They have 3 or 4 restaurant locations and the one brewery.

Oh okay, my memory fails me, but now that you mentioned it I don't remember seeing any equipment there. I think I'm mixing my memory of McMenamins Fulton pub location. I went to a lot of brewery/bars on that 2day visit.

Any way, Portland is a wonderful place, I can't wait to visit there again.

Perfect, that's just what I need. So I'll buy a beefier pump and chiller than I need now, so I can use it when I move up.

What I've got in mind is a tiny bottle brewery, 500 bomber bottles per batch, out of a detached garage or shed at our house. Depending on Oregon's distribution laws, I'd find a way to sell those 500 somehow.

A brewpub would be awesome someday, but Portland already has a lot of great brewpubs. We do have a friend who wants to start a restaurant business someday, so maybe we could find a way to go in on something together in a new and interesting way. It's great living in a city that likes beer so much, makes it feel like you can find a niche market for just about anything!

What I've got in mind is a tiny bottle brewery, 500 bomber bottles per batch, out of a detached garage or shed at our house.

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All manual labor, bottle rinsing, filling, labeling and capping?
Don't make the place too tiny.
Many years ago I looked into buying bottles for a project I was working on.
Most major bottle suppliers I checked out had a minimum of 8000 bottles per order.

Depending on Oregon's distribution laws, I'd find a way to sell those 500 somehow.

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Can you have a manufacturing business on the same residential property within your city limit like Gordie?
I can't.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

farmbrewernw said:

If you are really going to make a go at this i would find a niche market like lagers or something, do something that most breweries aren't doing.

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who would have thought the day will come that a brewer will call lagers a niche...

Nah, we'd get one of those tabletop bottling systems. So it'd still be manual labor loading them on and off the machine and labeling them, but the filling and capping would be done by the machine.

I think what I'll do is talk to a zoning lawyer before we buy a house (we're renting now) and see what they think about the on-site brewery possibilities. It might mean moving a little further out of town than I was thinking, but I think it'd be a worthy tradeoff for owning a nanobrewery.

I looked at the OLCC (Oregon Liquor Control Commission) last night and it seems that you can self distribute in Oregon. Even with a table top bottler doing 500 bombers is going to be labor intensive, you know you could always do party pigs or something. I know some of the food cooperatives in oregon sell party pigs. Oregon Trail brewery in Corvallis sells party pigs on site and at First Alternative Cooperative in Corvallis. Really at first I'd stay to keg sales but that's just me, I know how labor intensive it is using a fully automated machine like a 4 head Mahean so I'm only guessing a table top would be a pain. You might have to buy a whole pallet of bottles as well unless you can go in with another brewery, which is probably a possibility.

I've toured two small breweries in New Hampshire and I'll tell you that bottling can be done on that scale. The first one I checked out has a 4 bbl brew system. Their bottling operation is as follows; two bottles are placed by hand under the machine. The machine back flushes and fills both bottles. The bottles are removed and replaced with two more empties. The full bottles are capped BY HAND using a Red Barren wing capper. I kid you not. Their fermenters are 7 barrel size, so they have to brew two days back to back to fill each one. Then they bottle the 7 barrels as I described and use a little hand labeler to affix the labels to the bottles. They are profitable and in the process of expanding. And they only sell in 22 oz bottles, no kegs.

The second brewery I toured opened recently and his brewery uses a MoreBeer brew sculpture. The owner brews 15 gallon batches on it himself and bottles using a 5 gallon bucket and bottling wand. He caps, prints labels off his computer and attaches them by hand. His 22 oz beers are currently being sold in 3 stores. Labor intensive? Yes. Is it working for him? Yes.

One other thing to point out. When you see a bottle being sold for $8, remember that the brewer isn't getting $8. If you self distribute, you could sell that bottle to the store for maybe $5 or $6 so the store can turn around and make a profit off it at $8. If your state doesn't allow self distribution, you'll have to sell it to the distributor who will mark it up 30% and they'll sell it to the store who in turn marks it up to $8. And $8 bombers don't have the same turnover as $3 bombers. If the store can't sell many of your beers at that price they will just replace it with a better selling brand. Shelf space is valuable. It has to be cheap enough to have decent turnover, but not so cheap that you don't make a profit. Just some food for thought. Good luck with the brewery!

Well, I've reached that point in a young girl's life when she starts daydreaming about opening her own brewery...

I'm sitting here looking at 3bbl systems on the web, and wondering what the costs would be in brewing a 3bbl batch. I currently spend about $30 to brew 5 gallons AG.

About how much grain would you need for 3 barrels? How many hops? And does the cost of cleaning and sanitizing get pretty high at that point?

Just fun to think about....

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.....and this ladies and gentleman is how it starts.

22oz bottles would mean half as many bottles but would probably cost you just as much as normal 12ozers. Caps would be cheaper unless you go with corks/bird cage/swing tops.

Kilted Brewer said:

Don't forget taxes (fedreal, state, local), your time, utility bills, if bottling the bottles, if kegging the kegs, etc etc etc.

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Labelling costs, That's pretty time intensive if doing it by hand.

Let it die, necromancers.

weirdboy said:

Guh? I can get both cheaper than that and I don't pay wholesale. My LHBS will sell me a 50# bag for $38, and if I'm willing to drive another 10-15 minutes farther, I can get one for $35. I know some guys who have a local brewery here and they say they pay a bit over $27 for a 50# bag shipped which comes out to around $0.55/pound by my calculations.

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I have to agree. That sounds a bit high. You can buy 2 row pale for about $0.72/lb at NB in 50# sacks. My guess is you would be ordering by the pallet from someone like Mid-Country or direct from Rahr or Briess at a lower cost. Also, depending on the variety, you can buy bulk hops from hopsdirect for $6/lb. Again, in bulk bails, they are probably cheaper still.

so any news on the nano brewery? we're thinking of doing the same.

passedpawn said:

Let it die, necromancers.

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NEVER!!!!!!

jajabee said:

Ouch, a minimum quantitiy would suck! And yeah, I'm sure it doesn't make sense to brew 3bbl's commercially, unless you charge a lot... I wouldn't want to be a "commercial" brewery, though. I envision something more like a neighborhood bakery, where I brew whatever the heck I feel like making, without worrying too much about making each batch exactly the same each time, and people who are interested in unusual beer can stop by and pick up a few bottles. Very low-key. I wouldn't want to *lose* money on each bottle, though, so I'm curious how much I'd have to charge to cover the cost of the consumables and packaging and still make a little profit.

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http://cocoabeachbrewingcompany.com/

Cocoa Beach Brewing Company only has a 1.5 bbl system. I view something like this when you say you want something like a neighborhood bakery. This place has a very homey feel...I suppose that is because it is built in a converted house.

His permit didn't allow bottling when he first opened. It seems as though he finally made it through that red tape and now bottles in bombers by hand.

There is also a pretty cool brewery called Captured By Porches out of St. Helens. They claim to be the smallest brewery in Portland. They do swingtops in New Seasons, and are out at Krugers Farm on Sauvie's Island in a beer bus on the weekends. I think they are opening up a brew cart somewhere in the Hawthorne area soon too. I'm sure they would be willing to give some tips for starting a small operation. http://www.capturedbyporches.com/about.history.html?lcat=1

Gordie said:

Hey there. I'm a lawyer with my own licensed and bonded brewery in my garage with a 1bbl brewhouse. I've been legal and selling as a nanobrewer for over a year and a half. There's no legal minimum amount or minimum sized equipment.

In terms of cost of a 3 bbl batch of beer, wholesale grain prices are around $0.70 a pound and hops are $14.20 a pound. A hypothetical respectful 3 bbl batch would have a grain bill of about 150 lbs of grain and roughly 3 lbs of hops. That's $147.60 in materials. Then figure in the cost of running the system (utilities, etc.) and the brewer's time and whatnot. A slightly high estimate would be that you could produce 3 bbl of beer for about $200 - $250.

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I'm guessing the rules are different for a brew pub vs. a nano brewery.

Good read. Thanks for bringing it up.

I do just under 1/2 BBL batches at the moment and when I work out the material costs (not incl bottles, but including caps), I come to about $9 for 12 22oz bottles for an authentic ESB (bulk MO as base malt) or mid-range (1.065) IPA.

IMO, where you can really cut costs and headaches is trying to find local bars and taprooms to carry your beer and selling kegs. This is WAY less overhead (allows you better quality control vs bottling in a smaller operation) and even buying brand new unbranded kegs will provide a cost benefit over bottles. Sure, selling bottles or growlers has some advantages, but you may be better able to "get the word out" by going through local establishments.

Not to suggest a completely ghetto setup, but hear me out

grain: http://www.brewbrothers.biz/
~$30 for a bag of Great Western, $50.33 for 55# of Marris otter. No minimums.

Mash tun, sparge vessel, and boiler--buy three of these from this guy http://eugene.craigslist.org/for/1958367055.html
they are $175 and are in perfect condition. he can convert them to brew pots for $100-$150 each, or you can get a $18 step drill bit and do it yourself. have someone cut the lids off though. his email is [email protected] and he's about an hour or so away from Portland.

fermenters, either inductor style conicals from http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=TN1923IN (that's the 15 gallon version i use), stainless tanks like the ones above, or there is a guy on http://eugene.craigslist.com that sells unused (but technically used) HDPE #2 barrels, 55 gallon, for $25. I can't find his ad right now, but they are awesome.

water and sewer in Portland are just gonna be murder. i'd run at least a year long utility cost vs. renting some place east of portland (gresham maybe?).

a march pump, while undersized, won't be in your critical path. save some money and get the $150 model we all use.

electric could be a hell of a lot less expensive with a 1bbl like i'm talking about, but you're gonna need at least 50 amps, and preferably two 50 amp circuits. two 100 amp circuits would be even better. or, propane/natural gas. if you use propane, i'd suggest talking to Ted from Brewers Union Local 180. he has a neat propane setup, and i'm sure he'll talk your ear off Also, he uses plastic kegs which are very, very nice. ask him about the pluses and minuses of that.

anecdotally, when it comes to insulating your fermentation chamber, a few friends of mine in the DIY construction business say it is frequently cheaper to get a dedicated insulation company to do the work for you then to buy and do it yourself. economies of scale, apparently. anyway, another thing to do a little research on.

and finally the hard part--marketing! sorry, can't help you there lots of festivals and whatnot would probably be a less expensive, but labor intensive way to get started. i'm sure there are things i've forgotten, as i am enjoying a wee heavy at this precise moment

oh, and i haven't thought about this very much--why do you ask?

I'm just kind of curious, do brew pubs have to include a wholesaler into their business to conform to the 3 tier rules. So do they have to sell a keg to a distributor, then buy it back?

To me running a brewpub is the most attractive as you can sell beers for $3 a pint at a minimum and you can still keg and keep costs at a minimum. Hire a head chef to take care of the food. There are more elements to keep in check but as a whole I see more profits to be made.

As for $8 bombers, I don't buy them and have a feeling you'd have a really hard time unloading hundreds of them at a time. The sale prices for whole kegs listed above seems pretty low as well at under $1 a beer.

Brewpubs seem to be the ultimate gamble, max potential profits yet a huge investment. The restaurant biz is a tough one.

Check out this thread for my nano brewery build.


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/aussie-brewery-build-248072/

I buy bags of malt directly from Canada Malting @ $22-25 for domestic pils, 2-row, pale, munich, wheat, it gets cheaper if you buy over 100.