Lack of intense hop aroma...

I am fairly new to brewing - been doing it for about a year now. I just finished my 10th brew (2nd AG). During the process, I have been trying to achieve the intense hop aroma that some of my favorite craft beers have. I have tried late hop additions, dry hopping, and hop steeping at the end of the boil. For my first AG, I also switched to kegging, so I decided to dry hop in the keg. I put the hops in a bag and let the keg sit at ~68 deg F for about 4 days, then I moved the keg to the kegerator. I was sure that I was going to get good hop aroma this time. I pulled a pint last night and was disappointed with the hop aroma once again - almost none.

I am going to try to weight the hop bag and get it to sink tonight. I read somewhere that the hop oils tend to rise to the top?

I am not sure what else to do other than up the hop additions. I have read about the hop-back idea also - I might try that.

This last batch used a total of 7 oz of hops, 2 oz of which were steeped for 25 minutes after the boil, and 2 oz of which are currently in the keg for dry hopping.

Way more hops! My IPA calls for 17.5 oz of hops! 11 gallon batch. Only 3 of those are dry hopping and one is bittering. The rest are late additions and steeping. I'm thinking about getting the hop rocket from Blichmann.

EDIT: I think it's 17.5, I don't have my recipe with me but it's ballpark.

My biggest hop profile so far was a 12 oz. total, with 4 oz in the dry hop. Still didn't do much for me. I guess it is time to get ridiculous with the numbers! :cross:

Also use hops with intense aromas... Citra, Amarillo, galaxy, etc.

What hops have you been using?

I agree, more hops, more late hops, and more dry hops. My 5 gallon IPA uses almost 10 oz of hops. I bitter with .75 to 1 ounces for 60 minutes. 2 ounces at 10 mins, 2 at 5 mins, and then dry hopped with 5 ounces. That gets me the aroma and taste I like. I combine Simcoe, Chinook, Columbus, and Centennial for my taste and aroma profile and bitter with Warrior.

Yeah... dunno. Depends on the hops you are using, in my opinion its not about tons of ounces but rather AA%s and the over all IBU, and style of hop. Aroma is going to come with late additions but is quick to fade, so you can go higher, but I find in my testing that aroma is coming mostly from dry hopping.

If you like IPAs with 140 IBUs then go ahead and add 17 ounces. Your recipe, your choice. I find the hop burst method to give me more flavor rather than aroma. Hops like Citra Simcoe and Amarillo used in the 15/5/0 is going to give you that grapefruit smack in the face. 3 oz dryhopping is going to give your that awesome citrus aroma.

My experience, yours may vary.

I agree with everyone else. Add more hops! I usually do 3-4 ounces at flame out and a 3-4 ounce dry hop.

I used a variety of hops in my brews. Most of my IPA's so far have had late-hop additions of one or a combo of Cascade, Columbus, and Centennial. I also did an all-Simcoe IPA that was quite good, but, like the others, didn't have that "smack you in the face" aroma that I like.

The last APA I brewed used 26 oz of hops in a 10 gal batch and a couple of friends commented that the hop aroma WAS TOO MUCH. I say no such thing, but it is still intense a couple of months later. I used 4 oz in the mash, 4 oz FWH and then 3 oz at 15, 3 oz at 10, 3 oz at 5 and 3 oz at 0 (150F 30min hopstand) and finally 6 oz in the dry hop. It is hops hops and more hops from the minute it hits your tongue to the minute it finishes. Very well rounded bitterness (NOT AN IPA) but all hop flavor.

HawksBrewer said:

The last APA I brewed used 26 oz of hops in a 10 gal batch and a couple of friends commented that the hop aroma WAS TOO MUCH. I say no such thing, but it is still intense a couple of months later. I used 4 oz in the mash, 4 oz FWH and then 3 oz at 15, 3 oz at 10, 3 oz at 5 and 3 oz at 0 (150F 30min hopstand) and finally 6 oz in the dry hop. It is hops hops and more hops from the minute it hits your tongue to the minute it finishes. Very well rounded bitterness (NOT AN IPA) but all hop flavor.

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yeah the "whirlpool hopping" at between 170-150F is great advice

HawksBrewer said:

The last APA I brewed used 26 oz of hops in a 10 gal batch and a couple of friends commented that the hop aroma WAS TOO MUCH. I say no such thing, but it is still intense a couple of months later. I used 4 oz in the mash, 4 oz FWH and then 3 oz at 15, 3 oz at 10, 3 oz at 5 and 3 oz at 0 (150F 30min hopstand) and finally 6 oz in the dry hop. It is hops hops and more hops from the minute it hits your tongue to the minute it finishes. Very well rounded bitterness (NOT AN IPA) but all hop flavor.

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You put hops in the mash? Hmmm....never thought of that.

69Bronc said:

You put hops in the mash? Hmmm....never thought of that.

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If you read the book For the Love of Hops by Stan Hieronymous he points out that there isn't much research on the exact contribution of mash hopping, but as a general idea, more hops can't be a bad thing :cross:

Just a really dumb question to make sure we are covering all of the bases here:

What are your serving temps? If it's too cold, you'll kill that wonderful aroma.

What type of grain bills are you using? If you are adding heavier/sweeter malts, they can play against the hops. I'm not sure that adding 26 ounces is the answer. Seems like a waste of hops at some point. But to each his own. You can also look at water chemistry. Increasing your sulfate levels can give your profile a little more edge and help highlight the hops. Post a few of your recipes and it will help give us a little more insight.

Also look at your mash temperature and make sure your thermometer is calibrated properly. With a calibrated thermometer make sure you're mashing low and long, say 149-ish for 75-90 minutes. This will give you a highly fermentable wort that will allow all those hops aromas and flavors to shine through.

Serving temps are usually in the 38-40 degree range. Same as I store my favorite craft beers (that have amazing hop aroma) at.

As I stated, I just started doing AG, so most of my brews were extract with some steeping grains for flavor. Most of my "grain bills" for IPAs have just been simple extra-light DME with a small amount of crystal malt steeped and occasionally some corn sugar to dry it out a bit.

This first AG I did, I mashed at about 152 for an hour. I will try the 149 mash temp next time. Also, that all grain IPA recipe did have quite a bit of sweeter stuff - the grain bill was from a recipe someone had developed to try and clone Odell's IPA. I used that grain bill, plus some corn sugar to dry it a bit, and then used Magnum for bittering hops and Cascade for late hop additions, hop steeping, and dry hopping. For water, I used RO water and added the "baseline" additions mentioned in the "water primer" thread on this site plus an additional amount of gypsum for highlighting hops. I don't have the exact recipe in front of me right now. I will post it when I get home tonight if I have time.

Thanks for the responses.

More hops, and use a few together at the same time that compliment each other.

Some good combos I enjoy are Cascade, Summit, Amarillo / Centennial, Citra, Motueka / Nelson Sauvin, Cascade, Willmette.

Also Simcoe, Amarillo, Citra (my secret weapon for hop bombery) :rockin:

69Bronc said:

My biggest hop profile so far was a 12 oz. total, with 4 oz in the dry hop. Still didn't do much for me. I guess it is time to get ridiculous with the numbers! :cross:

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I'm a HUGE proponent of adding more hops to IPAs, I even wrote a blog post specifically about that, but I don't think that's your issue.

12oz in an IPA with 4oz in the dry hop should be more than enough for a big hop aroma.

So, let's talk about some other things:

1. Water, try adding more gypsum, since you are starting with RO. Maybe 2tsp/5gal.

2. Yeast and fermentation. A. If you are under-pitching, or pitching unhealthy yeast, the hop aroma and flavors won't shine. B. If you pitch way too much yeast, they will cling to the hop-oils and pull them out of solution.

A great example of this, is how two fermenters with identical wort, can have very different measured IBU levels in the finished beer, when pitched with different yeasts. English yeasts for example will strip out more hop oil and iso-alpha acids than clean American yeasts.

3. Hop quality. Rub a couple pellets in your palm to break them up, then rub the hop dust with both hands. It should smell bright and fragrant. If it smells bland or cheesy, you have old hops.

4. Maybe a leaky keg lid? If your keg lids aren't sealing, it'll take a lot of hop aroma with it out the top.

5. Be extra careful to prevent O2 pickup during racking.

From a recipe stand point, if you're using an ounce or two of a high alpha hop for bittering, a few ounces near the end of the boil, and a few ounces at flameout, that should be good. Combine that with 2-4oz of dry hops, and that should get you to the finish line.

scottland said:

I'm a HUGE proponent of adding more hops to IPAs, I even wrote a blog post specifically about that, but I don't think that's your issue.

12oz in an IPA with 4oz in the dry hop should be more than enough for a big hop aroma.

So, let's talk about some other things:

1. Water, try adding more gypsum, since you are starting with RO. Maybe 2tsp/5gal.

2. Yeast and fermentation. A. If you are under-pitching, or pitching unhealthy yeast, the hop aroma and flavors won't shine. B. If you pitch way too much yeast, they will cling to the hop-oils and pull them out of solution.

A great example of this, is how two fermenters with identical wort, can have very different measured IBU levels in the finished beer, when pitched with different yeasts. English yeasts for example will strip out more hop oil and iso-alpha acids than clean American yeasts.

3. Hop quality. Rub a couple pellets in your palm to break them up, then rub the hop dust with both hands. It should smell bright and fragrant. If it smells bland or cheesy, you have old hops.

4. Maybe a leaky keg lid? If your keg lids aren't sealing, it'll take a lot of hop aroma with it out the top.

5. Be extra careful to prevent O2 pickup during racking.

From a recipe stand point, if you're using an ounce or two of a high alpha hop for bittering, a few ounces near the end of the boil, and a few ounces at flameout, that should be good. Combine that with 2-4oz of dry hops, and that should get you to the finish line.

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My earlier brews were all done with Safale-05 dry. Then, I found out that Stone uses an English ale yeast for a lot of their brews, so I tried WLP007 for a batch and liked how well it fell out. I used that yeast for my first all-grain. For my next all-grain IPA, I am planning on using Safale-05 again (I am actually repeating one of my earlier extract brews, but doing AG this time to compare). Perhaps I will repeat this current brew with an American ale yeast just to see the difference.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Are you re-hydrating your yeast, and if so how?

For the WLP007 batches, were you making a starter?

And finally, what was the average OG of these batches?

Yes, re-hydrating the dry yeast per instructions in Palmer's book.

For the WLP007 batches I did make starters using guidance from Mrmalty on the size of starter need.

The average OG of the batches is around 1.070 or so.

69Bronc said:

My earlier brews were all done with Safale-05 dry. Then, I found out that Stone uses an English ale yeast for a lot of their brews, so I tried WLP007 for a batch and liked how well it fell out. I used that yeast for my first all-grain. For my next all-grain IPA, I am planning on using Safale-05 again (I am actually repeating one of my earlier extract brews, but doing AG this time to compare). Perhaps I will repeat this current brew with an American ale yeast just to see the difference.

Thanks for the suggestions.

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Youre doing 10 gallon recipes, yes? Why not split the batch and ferment with different yeasts. Currently doing that with all my recipes to find the winners. It's a great way to instantly compare 2 yeasts under the exact same conditions.

Only 5 gallon batches. I could still do the split, though - just have to find some smaller vessels.

Yeast isn't your issue then. Start with water then. Try 2tsp of gypsum per 5gal for your next batch, and see if it's got a little more 'pop'

hold up, i get a lot of hop flavor and aroma from 4 oz of late hops, and i consider that a very hoppy IPA, what are your beers like in the USA? ive had imported iipa's and a few sierra nevada pale ales and compared to my homebrewing endevors i get similar aroma and flavor from much less hop additions than you are all suggesting. whats up with that?

matteroftaste said:

hold up, i get a lot of hop flavor and aroma from 4 oz of late hops, and i consider that a very hoppy IPA, what are your beers like in the USA? ive had imported iipa's and a few sierra nevada pale ales and compared to my homebrewing endevors i get similar aroma and flavor from much less hop additions than you are all suggesting. whats up with that?

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Most of us wouldn't consider Sierra Nevada Pale ale very hoppy. I mean, from a balance perspective, it obviously isn't malty, but it's no comparison to any number of the west-coast IPAs and IIPAs.

4oz of late hops is a lot though. That combined with some dry hopping is basically what we're talking about. (SNPA would have about 1-2oz of late hops, and no dry hops.)

How are you chilling? Some say the speed of chilling makes no difference since large breweries can't chill wort that fast. But I didn't get the hops flavor and aroma I wanted until I used a lot of late hops and started rapid chilling while whirlpooling. Read two articles at mrmalty.com - the one on big hop aroma/flavor and the one on immersion chilling. A ton of great info. He's saying you need to chill the entire body of wort at once. I started using this same IC design, then I made a pot with a recirc port so I didn't have to have the return on the IC. Right now I am chilling to 70 or lower in 6-7 minutes using cold Chicago water. For reference, I do 5 gallon batches, bitter with very small (.3-.5 oz) of warrior typically then I use 5-6oz inside of the last 15 or 10 minutes, works great.

Fresh hops are a must! If you are using 2011 hops then they are 500+ days old at this point. Here is a good article on the impact of hops aging, and here is a decent calculator to see what impact aging and storage have on hops. Problem is, these only deal with the impact on alpha acids, not necessarily things like the impact on aroma which I believe degrade as well.

And I would not start adding a lot of gypsum like some are suggesting without knowing your water profile first, everyone's starting point is different. Water chemistry is definitely something to focus on but it sounds like you already are looking at it. Just stick to a balanced water profile until you get these other variables dialed in. Good luck!

I concur. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale isn't very hoppy from an aroma/flavor standpoint, IMHO. Some good ones that come to mind when it comes to hop aroma for me are:

Odell IPA (I would really like to be able to nail this type of hop profile)
Stone IPA
Marble IPA

and the holy grail for me is one that I sampled from Turtle Mountain Brewing. It was called "HyPA". I actually got the brewer to give me the ingredients (not the amounts or order, just what is in there). That was one of the most intensely hoppy beers I have ever had. It was like there was a filter bed of hops stuffed into my mouth prior to drinking the beer. Freaking delicious!

dbrewski said:

How are you chilling? Some say the speed of chilling makes no difference since large breweries can't chill wort that fast. But I didn't get the hops flavor and aroma I wanted until I used a lot of late hops and started rapid chilling while whirlpooling. Read two articles at mrmalty.com - the one on big hop aroma/flavor and the one on immersion chilling. A ton of great info. He's saying you need to chill the entire body of wort at once. I started using this same IC design, then I made a pot with a recirc port so I didn't have to have the return on the IC. Right now I am chilling to 70 or lower in 6-7 minutes using cold Chicago water. For reference, I do 5 gallon batches, bitter with very small (.3-.5 oz) of warrior typically then I use 5-6oz inside of the last 15 or 10 minutes, works great.

Fresh hops are a must! If you are using 2011 hops then they are 500+ days old at this point. Here is a good article on the impact of hops aging, and here is a decent calculator to see what impact aging and storage have on hops. Problem is, these only deal with the impact on alpha acids, not necessarily things like the impact on aroma which I believe degrade as well.

And I would not start adding a lot of gypsum like some are suggesting without knowing your water profile first, everyone's starting point is different. Water chemistry is definitely something to focus on but it sounds like you already are looking at it. Just stick to a balanced water profile until you get these other variables dialed in. Good luck!

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I use an immersion chiller after the steep. Water here is cold, so chill times down to 70 takes around 5-8 minutes depending on the time of year.

dbrewski said:

How are you chilling? Some say the speed of chilling makes no difference since large breweries can't chill wort that fast. But I didn't get the hops flavor and aroma I wanted until I used a lot of late hops and started rapid chilling while whirlpooling. Read two articles at mrmalty.com - the one on big hop aroma/flavor and the one on immersion chilling. A ton of great info. He's saying you need to chill the entire body of wort at once. I started using this same IC design, then I made a pot with a recirc port so I didn't have to have the return on the IC. Right now I am chilling to 70 or lower in 6-7 minutes using cold Chicago water. For reference, I do 5 gallon batches, bitter with very small (.3-.5 oz) of warrior typically then I use 5-6oz inside of the last 15 or 10 minutes, works great.


And I would not start adding a lot of gypsum like some are suggesting without knowing your water profile first, everyone's starting point is different. Water chemistry is definitely something to focus on but it sounds like you already are looking at it. Just stick to a balanced water profile until you get these other variables dialed in. Good luck!

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I've found the opposite with whirlpool hopping. A hot hop-stand post boil gave my beers a big hoppy punch, both aroma and flavor.

Also, he's using RO water, 2tsp gypsum per 5gal is fine. Borderline-conservative for an IPA

matteroftaste said:

hold up, i get a lot of hop flavor and aroma from 4 oz of late hops, and i consider that a very hoppy IPA, what are your beers like in the USA? ive had imported iipa's and a few sierra nevada pale ales and compared to my homebrewing endevors i get similar aroma and flavor from much less hop additions than you are all suggesting. whats up with that?

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Some of us in the US are obsessed with hops. There's been several news and blog stories about it. Here's a slightly related one I came across today. Sierra Nevada is not hoppy by the standards of hoppiness that some hold.

Back to the OP. Are you happy with the bitterness and flavor? If so, then just keep adding dry hops until you're happy. You loose most aroma to boiling. You probably loose a great amount of aroma to CO2 blow off during fermentation as well. Water profile and mashing influences your aroma, but ultimately, it comes down to how much you use to dry hop, considering that's the primary source of hop aroma. There's a brewpub I've tried a few times. If I understood correctly, they have an evolving IPA. The person serving it once tried to explain it, but she didn't seem to know exactly what the process was and the brewer was not around to clarify. It sounds like they have a batch that is continuously dry hopped. They made x amount of barrels and dry hopped it. Pulled out a keg, dry hopped some more, pulled out another keg, dry hopped some more, etc. Depending on when you have it, you get a slightly different beer and it has only tasted and smelled better each time I try it. I've never gotten the vegetal taste that people talk about from my homebrews, but people say you can over do it by dry hopping for too long. I never dry hop for more than 7 days. If this brew pub is doing what I think they are doing, they must have a way of pulling out the old hops and adding more. Personally, I wasn't happy with my IPA's until I dry hopped with 1 ounce or more per gallon of beer. The late additions at 10 and 5 minutes left in the boil helped, but the biggest perceived increase in aroma was with the addition of another ounce of dry hops. I was happy when I reached 1 ounce per gallon. The sooner I drink it, the better too, but it maintains a good amount of aroma for at least 2 months after bottling.

Just a thought, are you sure you're not suffering from allergies? Maybe sniffing the hops prior to each addition has fried your olfactory nerves

julioardz said:

Some of us in the US are obsessed with hops. There's been several news and blog stories about it. Here's a slightly related one I came across today. Sierra Nevada is not hoppy by the standards of hoppiness that some hold.

Back to the OP. Are you happy with the bitterness and flavor? If so, then just keep adding dry hops until you're happy.

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Yes, I have been happy with the bitterness. Just want more hop flavor and aroma.

julioardz said:

Just a thought, are you sure you're not suffering from allergies? Maybe sniffing the hops prior to each addition has fried your olfactory nerves

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Ha! I sure as heck hope not. I don't ever want to be immune to hop smell. That would suck.

69Bronc said:

I concur. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale isn't very hoppy from an aroma/flavor standpoint, IMHO. Some good ones that come to mind when it comes to hop aroma for me are:

Odell IPA (I would really like to be able to nail this type of hop profile)
Stone IPA
Marble IPA

!

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Odell's IPA is stellar. Totally underrated beer. Just outstanding malt and hop combination.

Heres a link for a potential clone recipe. I wish ODell would be a little more forthcoming about its recipe. Most other small brewers will share a recipe with you.

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=110740

Just an update on my latest brew. I doubled up the gypsum for my latest recipe. It was a double IPA. This time, I had 4 oz. of hops during the boil, 2 oz. of hops for a steep of 30 minutes, and then I hit it with 4 oz. of hops during the dry-hop.

Results:

I FINALLY have a brew that has the pronounced hop flavor that I am looking for. The hop aroma is still a little lacking, but the flavor is there.

However, there is a bit of a salty finish that I don't care for. It isn't terribly noticeable, but it is there. I might dial the gypsum back a little bit next time. For my next brew, I am just going to go for a "regular" IPA, dialing back the malt. I am also going to mix up the hops a bit. This DIPA was only Centennial for the aroma/flavor hops.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Things are heading in the right direction.

Great to see some helpful advice come to fruition. If you want a HUGE hop punch do a 2.5oz hopstand at 160F before chilling completely. You won't be let down.

I have read about dropping the temp. of my hopstand before. Haven't tried that yet. I have just been tossing the hops in right after flameout. I will chill it down to 160 on the next batch (I am also going to experiment with some hop tea addition in the keg). Hopville, here we come!

Also, the salty aftertaste is gone. I think it was a bit of the "stuff" that settled down at the bottom of the keg. Only tasted it in the first couple of glasses.

HawksBrewer said:

Great to see some helpful advice come to fruition. If you want a HUGE hop punch do a 2.5oz hopstand at 160F before chilling completely. You won't be let down.

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Please elaborate. Is this just an addition when cooling gets to 160? How long before you start cooling again, or do you add and just continue cooling?

My IPA is plenty bitter...not citrus enough.

Ridire said:

Please elaborate. Is this just an addition when cooling gets to 160? How long before you start cooling again, or do you add and just continue cooling?

My IPA is plenty bitter...not citrus enough.

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From what I understand, it is a chill to 160, then pull the chiller and toss in the hops and let them steep for some amount of time (my hop stands have been 30 minutes).

Previously, I was just tossing in hops at flameout, and letting them steep for 30 minutes. So, the temps were up above 180-190 for the whole time.

Devin said:

From what I understand, it is a chill to 160, then pull the chiller and toss in the hops and let them steep for some amount of time (my hop stands have been 30 minutes).

Previously, I was just tossing in hops at flameout, and letting them steep for 30 minutes. So, the temps were up above 180-190 for the whole time.

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Awesome. So little or no bittering from this? If I take my flameout additions and do this instead I'll get more hop/citrus flavor without significantly upping my IBU?