Late extract addition and flavor/aroma hops

BrewSwag 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
C

CraptainWirtz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Messages
74
Reaction score
8
I've read a lot of threads on late extract addition, but I don't think I've seen a discussion on this particular question.

I get my LME from MoreBeer and it comes in these foil bags. I haven't timed how long it takes me to squeeze out all the extract (I use a roll/fold-and-squeeze method like you would for a toothpaste tube), but I bet it's close to 5 minutes. Suppose I were to add all or the majority of my LME at 5 minutes left in the boil, or at flameout: has anyone ever determined how this affects the timing of your flavor and aroma hop additions?

Just to use an example, if I add a 5-minute aroma hop addition and then add LME at flameout, that's an extra 5 minutes the wort is near boiling. How much aroma am I losing? How do folks handle this?

Thanks,
Mark
 
Mark very good question. I too use Morebeers extract along with doing late addition extract . What i do is use a separate 1 gal pitcher and a jiffy mixer. I add my first extract addition "little less than half" to the pitcher. Then add some of my all ready hot boil water to it and mix it.

For my late addition: Because I'm pre mixing before adding my extract to the boil. I have plenty of time to roll up and squeeze out the remaining extract into the pitcher. Once I'm ready i take some of the boiling wort and add it in the pitcher hold the remaining LME and mix it. Then kill the heat and use the same mixer to mix it in.

Hope that made sense
 
Yeah, that's a good idea. For your late addition, what's your approximate LME/hot wort ratio?
 
I add about 1.5-2 pounds of extract at the beginning to 2.5-3.5 gallon partial boil for hop additions. Given the choice,I use half a 3lb bag of plain light DME in the boil for the hop additions. I remove aroma hop additions at flame out usually. Then the remaining DME & all LME at flame out. Maybe even toss the aroma hop sack back in after stirring in remaining extracts for the cover & steep for a few minutes. This lets pasteurization happen (160F),since the wort was still boiling hot when the remaining malts were added. And being not quite boiling temp,the aroma hops can steep a couple more minutes at the slightly lower temp.
 
uniondr, I think it's reasonable to add aroma hops at flameout like you do, but then do you worry about your flavor hops sitting in hot wort for too long, so you've essentially turned your flavor hops into bittering hops?

I guess another way to ask my original question is: do you change the timing of your flavor and aroma hops to account for time dissolving a late malt extract addition? My gut would say yes, as the whole time you're dissolving extract, your wort is near boiling.
 
CraptainWirtz said:
uniondr, I think it's reasonable to add aroma hops at flameout like you do, but then do you worry about your flavor hops sitting in hot wort for too long, so you've essentially turned your flavor hops into bittering hops?

I guess another way to ask my original question is: do you change the timing of your flavor and aroma hops to account for time dissolving a late malt extract addition? My gut would say yes, as the whole time you're dissolving extract, your wort is near boiling.
Click to expand...

What I said was I remove aroma hops at flame out. Do my late extract additions. then maybe toss the aroma hops back in while steeping the late additions. The flavor hops are out,as are the aroma hops most of the time. aroma hop additions are usually the last 2-5 minutes of the boil anyway.
So no,I don't change the timing of the flavor & aroma additions for anything. A late extract addition stands alone as just that. The extract I add before timing the boil is it till flame out.
 
Good thread.

Related question: how does late addition extract effect IBUs? I never thought it would make a difference, but I plugged it into brewersfriend calculator and it drastically effects the est. final ibu. Check it out:

Adding DME at start:

image.jpg
 
VS adding DME at end:

image.jpg

I think it's wrong on numbers, but is there a big difference in IBUs in late vs early DME additions?
 
Hop utilization is what it comes down to. That's why your seeing a bigger IBU .
 
Unferth said:
Good thread.

Related question: how does late addition extract effect IBUs? I never thought it would make a difference, but I plugged it into brewersfriend calculator and it drastically effects the est. final ibu. Check it out:

Adding DME at start:

View attachment 142833
Click to expand...

Late extract addition doesn't affect IBUs that much. From my experience and from what I've read it doesn't have much of an effect at all. That's one reason I always use Rager for my IBU formula. The idea is that boiling hops in lower gravity wort gives you better utilization than higher gravity. But, the relationship between gravity and utilization isn't a direct one and it applies mainly to all grain. The alpha acids adsorb to grain dust and proteins formed in the boil and drop out of solution with them, so if you have more grain with a higher gravity beer you have more proteins and dust that adsorb more alpha acids thus lowering your utilization. But with extract you don't have any grain dust and you have much less proteins forming in the boil because the extract has already been boiled during processing, so you don't have the same relationship between gravity and utilization. Late extract additions are a good idea though because they keep the color lighter and can help to avoid a "cooked extract" flavor. But I don't think they affect hop utilization.
 
peterj said:
Late extract addition doesn't affect IBUs that much. From my experience and from what I've read it doesn't have much of an effect at all. That's one reason I always use Rager for my IBU formula. The idea is that boiling hops in lower gravity wort gives you better utilization than higher gravity. But, the relationship between gravity and utilization isn't a direct one and it applies mainly to all grain. The alpha acids adsorb to grain dust and proteins formed in the boil and drop out of solution with them, so if you have more grain with a higher gravity beer you have more proteins and dust that adsorb more alpha acids thus lowering your utilization. But with extract you don't have any grain dust and you have much less proteins forming in the boil because the extract has already been boiled during processing, so you don't have the same relationship between gravity and utilization. Late extract additions are a good idea though because they keep the color lighter and can help to avoid a "cooked extract" flavor. But I don't think they affect hop utilization.
Click to expand...

If adding your extract at the start or end has no effect on hops, then why add any at the start at all? I do full volume boils, but I like understanding the theory on these things, and I always thought the point of adding any extract at all at the start was just for hop utilization. If not, there really is no point to boil any extract till flameout, no?
 
KepowOb said:
If adding your extract at the start or end has no effect on hops, then why add any at the start at all? I do full volume boils, but I like understanding the theory on these things, and I always thought the point of adding any extract at all at the start was just for hop utilization. If not, there really is no point to boil any extract till flameout, no?
Click to expand...

That's a question I've thought about before too. But I have heard that boiling hops in plain water can extract a harsh unpleasant bitterness. I've read that you need some malt in your boil to avoid this. I'm not sure if just the sugars you get from the steeping grains would be enough. I've never tried doing all of the extract at flameout though so who knows? Plus you would miss out on that wonderful boiling wort aroma!

EDIT: So I guess I'm saying the extract does affect the hops, just not in a drastic, IBU doubling way.
 
peterj said:
That's a question I've thought about before too. But I have heard that boiling hops in plain water can extract a harsh unpleasant bitterness. I've read that you need some malt in your boil to avoid this. I'm not sure if just the sugars you get from the steeping grains would be enough. I've never tried doing all of the extract at flameout though so who knows? Plus you would miss out on that wonderful boiling wort aroma!

EDIT: So I guess I'm saying the extract does affect the hops, just not in a drastic, IBU doubling way.
Click to expand...

Cool, looks like we're more in line with each others thoughts on it than it seemed at first :tank:.

To add onto the topic, how does diluting your wort effect hop flavours and aromas. When someone does a partial boil, when you add the water in it takes your IBUs down a lot (if you have 2.5gal on 100IBU wort and add 2.5gal of water, you're only left with 50IBU wort, making IPAs harder to accomplish with partial boils)... but how does it effect aroma and flavour?? Is it the same effect, or similar but not as drastic?
 
peterj said:
That's a question I've thought about before too. But I have heard that boiling hops in plain water can extract a harsh unpleasant bitterness. I've read that you need some malt in your boil to avoid this. I'm not sure if just the sugars you get from the steeping grains would be enough. I've never tried doing all of the extract at flameout though so who knows? Plus you would miss out on that wonderful boiling wort aroma!

EDIT: So I guess I'm saying the extract does affect the hops, just not in a drastic, IBU doubling way.
Click to expand...

But, if one does mini mashes with about 5 lbs of grain, would that be enough to provide 'powder' or avoid bad hop flavors?
 
Unferth said:
But, if one does mini mashes with about 5 lbs of grain, would that be enough to provide 'powder' or avoid bad hop flavors?
Click to expand...

Yeah that would be fine. That would be pretty much like adding 3 or 4 pounds of extract at the beginning of the boil. When you do a mini mash or AG you're just making your own malt extract.
 
r3dapples said:
are there any adverse effects if the wort stops boiling after the late extract addition?
Click to expand...

You can expect the boil to stop - no problem. You have two choices: 1) Heat it back to boiling for the time required (and add finishing hops after the late extract addition), or 2) Add it at flameout and not worry about getting it back to boil. (I guess technically there are some other choices, but these seem like the more obvious ones.) I've done both, and decided adding at flameout works much better for me - much simpler, and the results seem more predictable.
 
I like to add my late addition at flame out too. The wort is hot enough to liquefy the extract at that point.

I can stress enough the importance of mixing . Pre,during and post boil. If you are doing partial boils and topping off with water. You need to make sure your mixing enough. A couple of shakes on the carboy isn't enough. Wort and water are different densities.
 

Similar threads

L
Flame-Out Hops Addition and Hop Socks
Replies
4
Views
655
mac_1103
mac_1103
shrews824
Hop addition question
Replies
9
Views
713
shrews824
shrews824
K
Help me with my recipe! (Pseudo beer / hopped seltzer)
Replies
4
Views
943
KiljuBrew
K
Alan Reginato
Saaz (or noble hops) addition timings
Replies
9
Views
1K
GoodTruble
G
Gadjobrinus
Late hops - less IBUs than if just steeped? BS not adding in steeping time?
Replies
5
Views
374
Gadjobrinus
Gadjobrinus
Yakima 300

Latest posts

Back
Top