Crab-apple Cider by a new guy

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ajk170

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Hi All,

I'm pretty new to the homebrew experiance- I've made a Honey Blonde and Miabock over the past two months and now what to make a better cider than what I can buy. What I want to end up with is something that is carbonated, has a kick, is wet, and semi-sweet. But I do not have the patience to wait till next year for my first batch to condition. I'll do that when I get a reciepe/process down that I really like.

What I made last night I hope will get me something that fits the immediate bill. Here's what I used- take a look and see what everybody thinks

- 2 gal White Top pasturized cider (Wallmart) (pasturized)
- 1/2 gal Oceanspray Cranberry Juice (pasturized)
- 1# Domino Brown sugar (dissolved into ~ 1.5 quart Mountain top Spring water) - I cooled this down to ~80 degrees before adding to cider/cranberry/water mix)
- 1 quart additional Mountain Top Spring Water
- ~10 grams Coopers Ale dehydrated yeast (no specific mention on package of what type) that I reconsitutued prior to pitching.

As of this morning I had bubbles, so that was exciting! I tried to be thorough on the sanatize like I do for the beer, but I'm never sure if it's good enough. I use Star San on everything - maybe even longer than I should!


To help get me to what I want in a cider, I am thinking of putting 1 can apple juice concintrate and 1-2 cinnimon sticks and some corriander in on the secondary and let it sit in the secondary for a few weeks. Lastly, I am thinking that I could use plain DME to bottle rather than dextrose. Or could I use the DME in the secondary?

After reading more in these threads, I am also thinking that I may have to use some Splenda in the secondary to ensure a little sweetness and I am not sure what the DME will do to the flavor.

The last thing that I want is a wine cooler or diet soda! That's what's got me worried about the DME or Splenda.

Thanks for any input!
 
I should clarify, the yeast was almost a full pack of Coopers 15 gram pack. But my gravity seemed really low- ~1.04. Compared to what everybody seems to report - that doesn't appear to be very high at all. I even had the wife double check the work! Not sure why it was soo low- except that maybe I didn't have a lot of sugar in the mix.:confused:

Thanks again for any input!
 
1.040 will give you an ABV of 5.4%. What was the reasoning on the 2 quarts of water? As far as I can see that will just dilute the apple flavor and the ABV. Id think about throwing a can of concentrate in now to counteract the water.
10gr of yeast is enough for 10 gallons. You may have over pitched this batch. Its possible you will be ok but that is a lot of yeast for 3 gallons total liquid. It is going to ferment dry. You will need to back sweeten to get it where you say you want it. The DME will just up the ABV it will still ferment pretty dry.
 
Thanks! I will add the extra- I didn't realize that much yeast would be a problem- I'll add the concintrate this eve to try and help it out- what about aonther gallon of the cider to help out as well?

No real reason for the water- other than the fact I didn't know what I was doing!

When would be the right time to backsweeten? Secondary or at botteling?

Thanks!
 
Do not back sweeten until fermentation is complete. You will have no idea how much you need to back sweeten until then.

You really can't overpitch with cider. The amount of yeast used will have no bearing on whether the cider goes dry or not. It is much more a matter of what type of yeast you use and its attenuation and alcohol tolerance. Almost all ciders will ferment to dryness no matter what yeast you use, though some will leave or create flavors in the brew that others will not. For instance, some yeasts will leave a lot more apple flavor, givent he impression of sweetness, when in actuality most ferment to between .99 and 1.005.

Next time, it isn't necessary to add water. You can easily dissolve the sugar in some of the juice, therefore not lowering the abv with water. If you do this in the future though, never boil juice to dissolve sugars. Either warm it just enough 80 degrees or so, or just shake the hell out of it in a sealed bottle.

For now, you need to decide something. If you are ok with just 5.4% then you don't need to add anything, though it may be a bit on the light side of flavoring with so much of the liquid being water.

If you want more flavor and or more alcohol, then you have a couple options. You can add more cider, which will help both issues out, but will greatly add to the final volume and won't raise the abv. much. Or you can add some combination of ciders and juice concentrates. And just like with juice selection, you must be careful there are no chemical additions that were prohibit fermentation.

I personally would add a can or two of apple juice concentrate, check the SG then and let it do what its gonna do naturally.
 
Tusch - thanks for the tips- I think I'm gonna take your advice and add 2 cans of concentrate apple. Any suggestions for easy shopping for concentrated apple juice?

I am reading Edwort's apfelwine thread- there's a lot to get through there! I'm looking for variations and reviews from people on thier variations.

Any thoughts as to how long I should let it sit in the primary, secondary, and bottle condition? Esp since my ABV might be lower than actual Apfelwine, or will this concentrate pump up the ABV as well? As so many others, I want to drink it sooner rather than later. After what I've read, I'm resolving myself to having my first one around Halloween!
 
Well you need to find either frozen or non-frozen juice concentrate that has no preservatives. Really the only acceptable additions besides juice are acorbic acid/vitamin C. If you buy it frozen, just let it thaw and add it in liquid form. Once added, take a sample gravity and see where one can brought you. Yeah you could estimate by calculations, but I forget how many cans are in most concentrates. Now if you want to bump the abv even higher, then go ahead and add the second can and see how high that brought you.

And I kind of implied it, but yes adding concentrate bumps the abv up. It is just concentrated juice, so it adds a lot of apple flavor and all the sugar that would normally be in the juice. So since yeast produce alcohol by eating sugars, adding all this sugar will up the alcohol level.
 
Great- that's what I'm gonna do tonight. I got the Tree Top concentrate. Like you said, I'll use one can and take a reading and if it needs the other then I'll dump it there as well.

If I can find the corriander, I'll add that in the secondary and then hopefully she'll be ready by the middle of October!:mug:
 
Unless I am badly mistaken you don't rack to a secondary on cider. Just start it in the carboy and leave it there till its done. There is no reason to rack it off the lees in this case.

Save your self the work.
 
You can indeed put ciders in secondary. Some yeasts produce lees that you don't want to leave it on for too long, but on the other hand letting ciders age is great. So racking allows you to bulk age and makes clearing and bottling much easier. On top of this, secondary allows you to make additions to your brew such as spices, fruits, whatever suits your fancy.
 
Wasn't trying to be a smart ass, sorry if I came off that way. Just trying to share some of the knowledge I've gained in the past year, I'm a noob too! :)
 
Wasn't trying to be a smart ass, sorry if I came off that way. Just trying to share some of the knowledge I've gained in the past year, I'm a noob too! :)

No you were not. I really did learn that and I was glad you posted it. I was also making a joke, a bad one I guess. Sorry about that.
 
So I put one can of the concentrated apple juice into the primary and it seemed as though it picked up some steam on the fermentation, which is good. When I peeked into the fermentor (I use a 7.5 gal plastic fermentor) there appeared to be a nice head of krausen (sp). I was concerned that fully exposing the cider to the air might be a bad thing, thus I lifted the lid just enough to pour the juice in and sealed it back up while giving it a small swirl.

I think I am going to rack to a secondary and maybe add a cinnamon stick or something.

New question- with this much yeast (~10 grams) for just 3 gallons, should I still put another gallon of cider into the primary? I'm thinking this much yeast will either eat all the sugar available or it will continue to have an active fermentation in the secondary - or both. I'm not too concerned with high ABV for this batch so if adding more cider is the right thing to do to offset the yeast but at the expense of the ABV, then that's OK.

Lastly, is it getting to the point now that I can't add anything new to the primary fermentation? I am now 36 hours into the fermentation.

Thanks again!
 
So I put one can of the concentrated apple juice into the primary and it seemed as though it picked up some steam on the fermentation, which is good. When I peeked into the fermentor (I use a 7.5 gal plastic fermentor) there appeared to be a nice head of krausen (sp). I was concerned that fully exposing the cider to the air might be a bad thing, thus I lifted the lid just enough to pour the juice in and sealed it back up while giving it a small swirl.

I think I am going to rack to a secondary and maybe add a cinnamon stick or something.

New question- with this much yeast (~10 grams) for just 3 gallons, should I still put another gallon of cider into the primary? I'm thinking this much yeast will either eat all the sugar available or it will continue to have an active fermentation in the secondary - or both. I'm not too concerned with high ABV for this batch so if adding more cider is the right thing to do to offset the yeast but at the expense of the ABV, then that's OK.

Lastly, is it getting to the point now that I can't add anything new to the primary fermentation? I am now 36 hours into the fermentation.

Thanks again!

One package of yeast is the correct amount for one-six gallons of cider. You didn't put too much in- you put in the right amount. The yeast will only ferment as much sugar as is available. If you don't add more juice, the yeast will finish. If you add more juice, the yeast will ferment that. In theory, two yeast cells could do as much fermentation as 300 billion. There is only a set amount of fermentables. When they are gone, the yeast will flocculate and your cider will be done.

You can add new things whenever you want- there isn't a time limit on additions. If you want it to be finished in a month (which is rushing it terribly), though, you have to leave it alone and let it do its work.
 
Thanks YopperBrew- as you could read, I wasn't sure- I'll let her go - I hate racking to a secondary with the fermentor that I am using so maybe I'll just let that go until bottling.

Maybe I'll increase my timeline and hold out and bottle around Halloween. I could let it go and have some of it for the holidays!:ban:
 
The yeast will almost definitely eat all of the sugars in your brew, ciders as I said almost always ferment to complete dryness. Also, if you want a good brew let it sit! Don't try to rush. You might want to bottle some for the holidays, but as this is your first I definitely suggest at least putting away some bottles to wait a few more months. Once you taste what just 3 or 4 more months can do, you will want to let the next brew age a lot longer before bottling.

Either way, happy brewing and happier drinking!
 
Everybody is truly different!

If I were only a coupla days into a fermentation, and had a 7.5 gallon fermenter approximately half full, I would go ahead and add enough juice and sugar to reach the 6-7 gallon mark.

Why not double your pleasure in half the time?

But...that's just me!

Pogo
 
Haha, very true! As long as you aren't transferring it to a smaller container, might as well fill her on up!

Oh and you shouldn't have to worry about opening to the lid too far, because at this early phase, once the fermentation gets going it in so strong that it produces plenty of CO2 to blanket and protect itself.
 
OK- so I went away for the weekend and upon my return I have found that the furious fermenting that I left as slowed. But having read a few other posts, I'm regretting not going with 7 gallons. So what we said previously is that it is really never too late to add stuff to the primary. With that said, maybe i should add another few gallons and a couple cans of consentrate. Only issue then would be in the bottling! Oh well, I guess I'll have to get more bottles!

Any thoughts on spices to add? I'll keep it posted as to what I do an techniques and tastes that result!
 
As this is your first, I would shy away from using spices. But I would definitely recommend you fill up that fermenter. Add enough juice to pretty much fill it up, then add concentrate to raise it to your desired SG. Or just add the juice and with the cans you already added, you will probably be somewhere around 6 or 7%.

As far as bottles, well I would say hold off bottling as long as you can, because the longer you wait the better this stuff will be. I started brewing ciders in the fall and wanted to get something ready for Christmas, it was a bad idea. Not that you can't get something good in just a couple months, but you can get something amazing with 6+ (even years). Also, the longer you wait the longer you have to drink and get your friends to drink, so you have enough bottles when you are ready.
 
Ok- so I am reading the posts about using the concentrate as my priming agent and I am thinking that this might give me what I want without adding a non-fermentable. I too like bubbly cider but I want it sweet and wet.
Anybody have good experiances with that?

Also, I am wondering what the consequnce of racking too early to a secondary? Is there any problems down the road?

Thanks!
 
I would not worry about racking to early to secondary, I would wait until at last 1.02, but after that you fine to rack. I usually end up racking long after that.

If you want sparkling sweet cider, you only have two options.
Stabilizing, backsweetening and kegging OR
Backsweetening with nonfermentable sugars (Splenda, Lactose) and bottle carbonating.

You can not do it any other way. Using concentrate for priming has been send to leave more apple flavor, but it will not leave any more sweetness.

And wet isn't really a characteristic of brewing, you've got dry, semi dry, semi sweet, and sweet pretty much. It doesn't go from dry to wet haha
 
I would not worry about racking to early to secondary, I would wait until at last 1.02, but after that you fine to rack. I usually end up racking long after that.

If you want sparkling sweet cider, you only have two options.
Stabilizing, backsweetening and kegging OR
Backsweetening with nonfermentable sugars (Splenda, Lactose) and bottle carbonating.

You can not do it any other way. Using concentrate for priming has been send to leave more apple flavor, but it will not leave any more sweetness.

And wet isn't really a characteristic of brewing, you've got dry, semi dry, semi sweet, and sweet pretty much. It doesn't go from dry to wet haha

Ok- so now I know! I always feel thirsty after I drink a woodchuck so I guess that's really dry- so I think after I dring a really good German Auslese wine that I feel like it was "wet" and I could taste it- thus that must be sweet! That is what got me on the quest for a cider that is bubbly, sweet, and makes me feel like I drank something!

So, ok, I am going to give it till the end of Sep and then check the gravity- if it's above 1.02 I'll let it go longer and then bottle. I'm getting ready to start my second batch that I think I'll start this year and try and let it go through the winter in the primary and rack in spring to secondary and then bottle for next season. But I'm looking at the caramal apple idea as well- that sounds really good to me.
 
WOW! DO I have a lot to learn! Here is thought it was dry and need sugar! I guess I have no idea what dry in a cider is suppose to be! Here is thought I would make something that is a little sweeter and maybe a little tangy with the cranberry but pack a kick!

So when I rack to teh secondary, I will taste to see where the flavor is at and try to see what needs to be done!
 
Hi All,

I'm pretty new to the homebrew experiance- I've made a Honey Blonde and Miabock over the past two months and now what to make a better cider than what I can buy. What I want to end up with is something that is carbonated, has a kick, is wet, and semi-sweet. But I do not have the patience to wait till next year for my first batch to condition. I'll do that when I get a reciepe/process down that I really like.

What I made last night I hope will get me something that fits the immediate bill. Here's what I used- take a look and see what everybody thinks

- 2 gal White Top pasturized cider (Wallmart) (pasturized)
- 1/2 gal Oceanspray Cranberry Juice (pasturized)
- 1# Domino Brown sugar (dissolved into ~ 1.5 quart Mountain top Spring water) - I cooled this down to ~80 degrees before adding to cider/cranberry/water mix)
- 1 quart additional Mountain Top Spring Water
- ~10 grams Coopers Ale dehydrated yeast (no specific mention on package of what type) that I reconsitutued prior to pitching.

As of this morning I had bubbles, so that was exciting! I tried to be thorough on the sanatize like I do for the beer, but I'm never sure if it's good enough. I use Star San on everything - maybe even longer than I should!


To help get me to what I want in a cider, I am thinking of putting 1 can apple juice concintrate and 1-2 cinnimon sticks and some corriander in on the secondary and let it sit in the secondary for a few weeks. Lastly, I am thinking that I could use plain DME to bottle rather than dextrose. Or could I use the DME in the secondary?

After reading more in these threads, I am also thinking that I may have to use some Splenda in the secondary to ensure a little sweetness and I am not sure what the DME will do to the flavor.

The last thing that I want is a wine cooler or diet soda! That's what's got me worried about the DME or Splenda.

Thanks for any input!

I'm just wondering where the crabapples come into this, I didn't see them mentioned anywhere, except for the thread title.
 
OK- thought I would update on how this coming out . . .

So I put a cinnimon stick in the secondary hoping that it could result in something good. Actually, it's not a "real" cinnimon stick - I read somewhere that those sticks that are rolled up aren't really true cinnimon, but a very close second. Anyhow, I dropped that in the secondary and it's been sitting there for the past 12 days.

How long should I still see airlock activity? when I transferred to the secondary the gravity was 1.01 while the SG was ~1.05. The air lock bubbles once every two minutes.

The taste is pretty good- there is a strong dry apple flavor with cinnamon on the finish with a slight carbonation. From what I've been reading here, I'd say it's sweeter than what a lot of other people make, but I like apple cider to be sweet.

Thanks to everybody for their inputs an help! I'll try an let this go for a few more months in the secondary but if I keep testing this - there won't be much left to bottle!
 
I don't know how long it'll ferment for you- it really depends on yeast health, the amount of remaining fermentables, temperature, etc. It should ferment to .996 or so. The reason it still tastes sweet is because it IS sweet at 1.010.
 
Ok- so I am reading the posts about using the concentrate as my priming agent and I am thinking that this might give me what I want without adding a non-fermentable. I too like bubbly cider but I want it sweet and wet.
Anybody have good experiances with that?

Also, I am wondering what the consequnce of racking too early to a secondary? Is there any problems down the road?

Thanks!

I also like my cider bubbly and sweet. Has anyone tried bottling it before fermentation is over and letting it sit for a fewdays and then pasturizing it? I saw that in the perloux and nichols book but have not tried it. Will the heat affect the cider?
 
OK- thought I would update on how this coming out . . .

So I put a cinnimon stick in the secondary hoping that it could result in something good. Actually, it's not a "real" cinnimon stick - I read somewhere that those sticks that are rolled up aren't really true cinnimon, but a very close second. Anyhow, I dropped that in the secondary and it's been sitting there for the past 12 days.

How long should I still see airlock activity? when I transferred to the secondary the gravity was 1.01 while the SG was ~1.05. The air lock bubbles once every two minutes.

The taste is pretty good- there is a strong dry apple flavor with cinnamon on the finish with a slight carbonation. From what I've been reading here, I'd say it's sweeter than what a lot of other people make, but I like apple cider to be sweet.

Thanks to everybody for their inputs an help! I'll try an let this go for a few more months in the secondary but if I keep testing this - there won't be much left to bottle!

It's sweet because it hasn't finished fermenting. The sweetness will go away.
 
So I put a cinnimon stick in the secondary hoping that it could result in something good. Actually, it's not a "real" cinnimon stick - I read somewhere that those sticks that are rolled up aren't really true cinnimon, but a very close second.

You probably added cassia which is marketed as cinnamon in the US. Cassia is rolled to about the diameter of a pencil. Real cinnamon is rolled to the diameter of the pencil you used in kindergarten.
 
Ok- new question - I've seen a lot of talk about how clear a cider will get but mine isn't exactly "clear" - not like I can see through it but I think it maybe because of all the cranberry jiuce that I added initially. So you could say mine has this nice red ale look about it. But I sorta though I should still be able to see the other side despite the red color. It still seems murky yet the air lock has almost no activity. But I should say that the it's ~ 3.5 gallons of cider in a 6.5 gallon Better Bottle- so maybe the small volume of cider just can't show a real active air lock. But theier is no movement in the cider either- not like when I forst racked to the secondary- very active movement even 48 hours after racking.

So is this nice red, yet murky, clarity consistant with using a cranberry juice of should it get clear just like cranberry juice does in the bottle from the store?

Thanks for all the advice - I couldn't have come this far without all of everyone's help and advice!

Cheers!
 
Ok- new question - I've seen a lot of talk about how clear a cider will get but mine isn't exactly "clear" - not like I can see through it but I think it maybe because of all the cranberry jiuce that I added initially. So you could say mine has this nice red ale look about it. But I sorta though I should still be able to see the other side despite the red color. It still seems murky yet the air lock has almost no activity. But I should say that the it's ~ 3.5 gallons of cider in a 6.5 gallon Better Bottle- so maybe the small volume of cider just can't show a real active air lock. But theier is no movement in the cider either- not like when I forst racked to the secondary- very active movement even 48 hours after racking.

So is this nice red, yet murky, clarity consistant with using a cranberry juice of should it get clear just like cranberry juice does in the bottle from the store?

Thanks for all the advice - I couldn't have come this far without all of everyone's help and advice!

Cheers!

It should clear, but it needs some time to sit still and drop the sediment. It'll start clearing from the top, and work it's way to the bottom. Racking stirs things up, so it'll take a while after it's been racked.

I can see through my cider- clear as a bell. Clear like apple juice. Clear like white wine. It will usually clear on its own, given enough time.
 
That's an interesting thought - since I'm new to the brewing, I'm not familiuar as others on the board with the various yeast strains- I didn't use a Hefe, I used Coopers Dry Yeast. But my cider doesn't seem to be showing any signs of clearing. Of course, I just racked to the secondary on 21 SEP and then moved it around on the 29th to sample (again). I kinda expected some sort of clearing at the top like what Yoop said- but nothing yet.

Anybody else have thought on a what various yeasts do to clarity? My thought is it won't clear like you think it should if you use a hefe strain - not sure what the taste would yield either- but it might be good!

There's probably a thread on this exact thought already- maybe a search will find some various opinions on a hefe yeast and cider!
 
It should clear, but it needs some time to sit still and drop the sediment. It'll start clearing from the top, and work it's way to the bottom. Racking stirs things up, so it'll take a while after it's been racked.

I can see through my cider- clear as a bell. Clear like apple juice. Clear like white wine. It will usually clear on its own, given enough time.

Thanks again Yoop- I was thinking that it should become clear despite the color and having moved it around over the past week probably stirred it up.

Now I realize that I have to rack this (again) to another fermentor because I need the space to start another batch of beer this weekend (not a bad problem to have!)

Any thoughts on racking to a tertiary fermentor? I'm thinkning that the only thing that will do is take out yeast, aerate the cider (possibly a bad thing), and stir up the cider (thus messing with the clarity).

Aside of all that, any thoughts on potential problems and why we wouldn't want to move to a third fermentor?
 
Thanks again Yoop- I was thinking that it should become clear despite the color and having moved it around over the past week probably stirred it up.

Now I realize that I have to rack this (again) to another fermentor because I need the space to start another batch of beer this weekend (not a bad problem to have!)

Any thoughts on racking to a tertiary fermentor? I'm thinkning that the only thing that will do is take out yeast, aerate the cider (possibly a bad thing), and stir up the cider (thus messing with the clarity).

Aside of all that, any thoughts on potential problems and why we wouldn't want to move to a third fermentor?

Well, I rack all of my wines and ciders when they have lees- so the racking isn't an issue. What I would do though is crush 1 campden tablet per gallon, dissolve that in a little hot water and add to the new carboy, and rack the cider into the sulfite. That will prevent any aeration.

Racking again before it's clear will probably delay clearing, but that's probably just fine.

The last thing to consider is that if the cider just will not clear, you can always add finings. I hesitate to use them, because I think that in addition to stripping yeast and sediment from the cider, I think it may strip some of the flavor as well. I've used sparkelloid with good results in my dandelion wine, though.
 
Ciders pretty much all will drop clear. Some don't, but there were reasons for it, it start out cloudy, there were problems with pectic haze etc. But if you let it sit long enough, almost any cider will drop clear. And you really shouldn't worry about it not clearing, if it hasn't cleared for a month after fermentation is complete. You might as well let it sit, because all of your brews will benefit from aging.
 
Well, I rack all of my wines and ciders when they have lees- so the racking isn't an issue. What I would do though is crush 1 campden tablet per gallon, dissolve that in a little hot water and add to the new carboy, and rack the cider into the sulfite. That will prevent any aeration.

Racking again before it's clear will probably delay clearing, but that's probably just fine.

The last thing to consider is that if the cider just will not clear, you can always add finings. I hesitate to use them, because I think that in addition to stripping yeast and sediment from the cider, I think it may strip some of the flavor as well. I've used sparkelloid with good results in my dandelion wine, though.


Ok- I've read alot about the campden tablets but the last time I was in my LHBS they talked me into Potassium Sorbate and potassium metabisulfite. They said use both to stabilize a cider - so not knowing better, I bought the two and now they sit in the brew room-

Any thoughts on a tried-and-true way to proceed with these- I had an impression that I should just use one of these- but that maybe wrong. If campden is the way to go- then that's what I'll do!

As always, a big thanks!

Cheers!:mug:
 
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