Partial Mash water needs

I recently did my PM and it looks like its going good. I was just curious if it REALLY matters how much water you start with (for the steeping, extract dissolving, and boiling).

I do 4 gallon batches and I started with 3 gallons. I added 1 gallon cold water before pitching. Would it make a difference in OG if I used 2 gallons at first?

For any mashing, you'll want to control your mash density so that the enzymes are at an appropriate concentration for good conversion.

Also, the more you boil, the higher your hop utilization.

Other than that, how much water you use is largely irrelevant. I am curious as to what you mean by starting with 3 gallons and adding 1 to make 4. Between boil off and grain adsorption, you should be losing 1.5 gallons or so.

Well to the 3 gallons I added 4.5 lbs of malt extract so that automatically increased my pot's volume. I guess it boiled back down to 3.

How does the volume affect hop utilization during the boil?

The less stuff dissolved in the water during the boil, the better of a job it will do at dissolving more of the bittering compounds from the hops.

So 4 gallons of 1.020 wort will end up more bitter than 2 gallons of 1.040 wort if the same amount of hops is added.

Ok good. since I don't use really bitter hops (i stick to aroma varieties) I'll use higher volumes of water.

whatisitgoodfor said:

The less stuff dissolved in the water during the boil, the better of a job it will do at dissolving more of the bittering compounds from the hops.

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That's not true. Alpha acid extraction is independent of wort gravity. Lots of brew books (and pretty much all of the IBU estimation formulas used by home brewing software) get this wrong.

see https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/adding-extract-172141/ for references.

So 4 gallons of 1.020 wort will end up more bitter than 2 gallons of 1.040 wort if the same amount of hops is added.

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That's basically true in the simple case (both are all-barley in a similar geometry pot).

wow that thread was full of information. a lot of stuff that's good to know. thanks for that. i took away that water doesnt matter too much. From now on for partials, i'll use half of my volume (start with 2 gallons and add to 4 later). I don't like bitter beers so mine won't go over 35-40 IBU so hop saturation shouldn't be an issue for me

thanks

You can boil however much you need to. But keep in mind that you'll still mash with 1.25-1.5 quarts of water per pound, and then sparge up to the boil volume. You won't want to mash in 3 gallons.

isn't mashing only for all grain? I was doing that before, but I'm not advanced enough for that. for partials, I just steep then add extract and boil.

mendozer said:

isn't mashing only for all grain? I was doing that before, but I'm not advanced enough for that. for partials, I just steep then add extract and boil.

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No. If you're steeping grains, if they have any base malt at all, you must mash them. If you're doing a partial mash, then you're not steeping.

well i'm using base malt extract then steeping specialty grains (carapils, flaked wheat, etc). do those still need to be mashed?

mendozer said:

well i'm using base malt extract then steeping specialty grains (carapils, flaked wheat, etc). do those still need to be mashed?

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No, specialty grains don't need to be mashed. Grains like carapils, crystal malt, chocolate malt, etc don't need to be mashed. If you're using those grains, you're not doing a partial mash (since there is no mashing....), you're doing an extract batch or an extract with steeping grains batch. A partial mash means that there is actual mashing going on, where grains are mashed to get fermentable sugars out of them.

However, if you're using flaked grains or grains like Munich malt, you must do a mash. In that case, you have to pay attention to the amounts of water used in the mash. Not the boil, but when you put the grains in water, you must have the right ratio of water to grains, and the correct temperature.

ok i knew that. sorry for the mislabeling of "partial mash". so is it better to steep then mash my flaked wheat or mash then steep?

mendozer said:

ok i knew that. sorry for the mislabeling of "partial mash". so is it better to steep then mash my flaked wheat or mash then steep?

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If you're doing a mash, you just put the specialty grains into the mash. No separate steep.

YooperBrew said:

No, specialty grains don't need to be mashed. Grains like carapils, crystal malt, chocolate malt, etc don't need to be mashed. If you're using those grains, you're not doing a partial mash (since there is no mashing....), you're doing an extract batch or an extract with steeping grains batch. A partial mash means that there is actual mashing going on, where grains are mashed to get fermentable sugars out of them.

However, if you're using flaked grains or grains like Munich malt, you must do a mash. In that case, you have to pay attention to the amounts of water used in the mash. Not the boil, but when you put the grains in water, you must have the right ratio of water to grains, and the correct temperature.

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So let me get this right. it's not NECESSARY to mash specialty grains, but it won't cause any errors in the wort if i do with the wheat?

Recommend you read this (http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13.html) keeping in mind that this is even a few years old and out of date. But it will probably answer a lot of your questions.

That wheat you're talking about is probably wheat malt (unless it's flaked wheat) and technically should be mashed. Remember, the word "mash" just means holding a mixture of grain and water (usually 1.5-2 qt per pound of grain) at a certain temperature for a certain amount of time (normally 60 minutes). All-grain brewing involves putting all of your grain in the mash, including specialty grains. Partial mash involves mashing the specialty grains and a portion of the base malt, with the remainder being filled in with extract.

Extract brewing with steeping of specialty grains is really just re-creating what the mash does for those specialty grains. It gets the sugars into solution so those sugars (and the yummy flavors that come with them) can get into your wort.

Hope that clears a few things up.

yeah i know the differences. someone higher up said my flaked wheat needs to be mashed. i thought i just had to steep with my crystal malt.

Here's my recipe to clear it up

4.4 lb light dry extract
.4 lb crystal 10 L
.4 lb flaked wheat
.86 oz goldings
.43 williamette
.43 williamette
1 oz lemon peel
1.6 gm grains of paradise
California Ale V (White labs)

and following the recipe i got (as well as checking with LHBS) i steeped grains for 30 minutes, added extract, then boiled adding hops at my time intervals. My gravity wasn't abnormally low, but lower than my target. my procedures were correct werent they?

ok just saw in john palmer's book that flaked wheat must be mashed. since nothing else is mashed, i guess i'd just mash it alone then add caramel and extract

mendozer said:

ok just saw in john palmer's book that flaked wheat must be mashed. since nothing else is mashed, i guess i'd just mash it alone then add caramel and extract

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No, you do the caramel malt and base malt together. Mash all of the grains at once. Then, after the mash, bring it to a boil and add your extract as usual. There isn't any need at all for a separate mash and then a separate steep. Mix them together, and do them at the same time.

yea but i didn't use a base malt. i used mainly extract with crystal and flaked wheat. so in that case would i steep, then mash, then add extract? or mash, then steep then add extract?

Do you have a LHBS? The staff there should be able to help you get the grain mix right. They can also recommend some reading material that will help you learn more about the whole conversion process. Palmers' "How to Brew" and Charlie Papazians' "The Complete Joy of Homebrewing" are excellent sources. Palmer is more in depth, and Charlie has excellent recipes (my dad brews exclusively from it and hasn't had a bad batch yet!).

yeah i have palmer's. i'm just getting confused with people saying something about mashing base malt with my flaked wheat, but my base malt was extract. so my question is can I mash flaked wheat alone? and would i do it in the already steeped water?

mendozer said:

yea but i didn't use a base malt. i used mainly extract with crystal and flaked wheat. so in that case would i steep, then mash, then add extract? or mash, then steep then add extract?

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You mix the grains altogether. All of them. You then bring water (1.5 quarts per pound of grain is a good rule of thumb) to 165ish, and turn off the heat. Add the grains, stirring very well and "smooshing" them around to thoroughly wet. Check the temperature. You want it 150-155. Cover it. After 45 minutes, lift out the grain bag. You can put it in a strainer over your brew pot, and pour 170 degree water over to "rinse" the grains. Stop when you have your boil volume, or when you run out of the 170 degree water. Let the grains drip over the pot.

Then bring the resulting liquid up to a boil. Throw the grains away. When the liquid boils, turn off the heat. Add the extract and stir well. You can add your hops at the correct times.

That's it!

oh ok so mashing crystal malt is ok. well that clears it up. and it explains my OG of 1.040, slightly lower than my targeted 1.053. Thanks and I'll have to correct my LHBS recipe which said to steep only