Campden tablets?

I am planning on making hard cider from fresh pressed apples. I recently picked about two hundred pounds of apples and was planning on making two 5 gallon batches. I plan on pressing the cider and then adding champagne yeast directly to the fresh room temp. cider. I have a couple questions: Are campden tablets necessary before pitching the yeast or will the champagne yeast kill off any other wild yeast or bacteria that may be present? Also, if I do use campden tabs will it change the taste of the cider, and if so how significant of a change?

First time I will be making hard cider, but since I have access to several acres of apple trees, I figure I better start learning how to make hard cider. Thanks in advance for any help you might be able to offer me.

People use camden to sanitise the juice and reduce chances of infection by bacteria. I often don't use it and have had no trouble, but it is a bit more of a risk. Camden is used almost universally in the wine and cider industries without any taste problems, but some people are more sensitive than others. Camden used in primary is all bound up by the fermentation process so won't help control infection later in secondary, so you need to add more later. It depends a lot how averse you are to additives and preservatives, but most people use camden with no problems.

Thank you. Very good answer.

I know of some brewers who don't boil, add campden, or anything. They make ciders and meads without any issues. I use campden because it's just an extra cautionary measure and it's pretty cheap.

Your champagne yeast should be powerful enough to dominate any wild yeast in the must. Just a word of advice, some people don't like the flavors that champagne yeast imparts on a cider. If you've used it before, that's ok, but why not make two different batches?

Another thing to note is that making hard cider is about patience. It doesn't always take a long time to ferment the cider, but it can take a good six months or more to mellow out the strong alcohol flavor and bring forward the apple flavor and aromas. Also, if you're new to brewing in general, don't cut corners on cleanliness and sanitation. If you're going to be sitting on a brew for six months, there's no reason why you can't take the time to clean and sanitize everything beforehand.

One thing I read a while ago, about adding campden to cider, was the time frame the cider sits before actually pitching the yeast. I grind and press my own "free" apples, and abused the heck out of a cider press. It would take me about two hours, as I recall, to grind and press 5 gallons of cider. This was two full press loads of ground apples. I used campden just because of the amount of time the cider was sitting exposed to the air. Secondly, I didn't wash or clean the apples in any way prior to grinding.

Just something to think about.

BTW..... I ground and pressed over 400 pounds of apples alone.

Good luck

I stopped using campden before pitching yeast at the beginning of last season - on advice from a friend who used to work as a winery microbiologist

Since then I have made 32 keg batches and about 50 one gallon experimental batches, with no problems. The cider retains more apple taste and can be consumed right after secondary fermentation - as opposed to hundreds of previous batches, which had to sit for several months for the k-meta harshness to wear off

The press where I get my apples is scrupulously clean and doesnt use any apples that have touched the ground. If you use ground apples and/or dont wash them, dont sanitize the press, etc. then yes, you should use campden. You only need to use half the recommended dose. The recommended dosages were worked out by wineries and apples are very different chemically.

IMHO, ale, wheat, natural, lager, and meade yeasts are all superior to champagne yeasts for cider.

What did the microbiologist say about using campden?

He said that at the winery, they only used campden (k-meta) before the yeast pitch if there was a problem - like if a fermentation started before the crush, or for bleaching whites that got oxidized - but that normally they didnt use it. Since then, several other local commercial winemakers have told me the same thing - that k-meta is a troubleshooting tool, not part of the recipe.

Until last year, I would always start the season with a few kegs of pasteurized juice because they could be consumed right away, while the unpasteurized stuff needed to age for several months for the k-meta burn to wear off. I always thought that this had something to do with using unpasteurized juice, but it was the k-meta

If I do use the campden

1. How much is a recommended dose? My bottle does not say.

2. After I add the Campden, do I put on the airlock?

3. How long do I wait to pitch my yeast?

Thanks!!

JamesM said:

If I do use the campden

1. How much is a recommended dose? My bottle does not say.

2. After I add the Campden, do I put on the airlock?

3. How long do I wait to pitch my yeast?

Thanks!!

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I use one crushed campden tablet per gallon. You don't have to put on an airlock, just cover it to keep flies and stuff out. I always wait 24 hours before pitching the yeast.

I stopped using campden before pitching yeast at the beginning of last season - on advice from a friend who used to work as a winery microbiologist

Since then I have made 32 keg batches and about 50 one gallon experimental batches, with no problems. The cider retains more apple taste and can be consumed right after secondary fermentation - as opposed to hundreds of previous batches, which had to sit for several months for the k-meta harshness to wear off

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Hey CvilleKevin, I have some questions for you:

1 - How long do you usually have to wait before it's ready for consumption if you use campten ?

2 - What does k-meta harshness taste like exactly ?

3 - Does it have to age in secondary or can it age in bottle for the k-meta harshness to wear off ?

4 - How long do you have to wait before consumption after secondary if you don't use campden ... how much time do you really save ?

5 - I will be getting another 10 gallon in 2 weeks and as I always see you give advice on this board and I really trust you so I will not use campden for the next batch. I trust the people where I get my cider so it shouldn't be a problem right ?

Thanks for your help !

1. At least 2-3 months
2. Its a sour bitterness. You can probably taste it in that first batch that is in progress.
3. It can age in bottle
4. Depends on the style. A sweet cider doesnt need much, if any time in the secondary. For early season batches, I've gone from pressing to keg in as little as two weeks for a sweeter cider. A dry cider is going to take more like 6 months, in which case skipping the campden doesnt really save any time.
5. Trust but verify - you should check out the press before skipping the campden. If they are really anal about sanitation then you can skip the campden. One thing you want to check for is absence of fruit flies around the operation, because the only way to get rid of them is to clean the hell out of everything on a daily basis. If anything looks the slightest bit sketchy use a half dose of campden. Full dose is overkill for cider

As usual ... Thanks for your continuous help CvilleKevin !

Just to make sure I understand correctly :

Depends on the style. A sweet cider doesnt need much, if any time in the secondary. For early season batches, I've gone from pressing to keg in as little as two weeks for a sweeter cider. A dry cider is going to take more like 6 months, in which case skipping the campden doesnt really save any time.

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When you say sweet cider, would you include a cider that was fermented to complete dryness and then backsweeten or are you only considering a cider to which the fermentation was stopped in order to keep some residual sugar ?

I'm referring to stopping the cider with residual sugar

OK CvilleKevin but if I stop fermentation before it's completely dry, it means I have to kill off all yeast and then I can't carbonate unless I keg them right ? There is also Pappers Easy Stove-Top Pasteurizing method but I don't think it can be done with freshly pressed apple cider as it will never clear up.

Because I want a bottled clear carbonated cider and I'm using freshly pressed cider, I have no choice but to ferment to complete dryness and then adjust taste with non-fermentable sugar and apple essence right ?

Yes, if you cold crash you have to force carbonate. I havent tried the stove top pasteurization method, but you are probably right about it being more cloudy if you bottle before the ferment is finished.

The other option is to use nitrogen reduction. This is what a lot of traditional cider houses do, but it is tricky. I've got some bottle fermented batches that I did with Wyeast 3333 and orange blossom honey. With the 3333, the cider reliably drops a couple points after the crash and then peters out because the crash also takes most of the nutrients. I bottled a dozen of these last season and still have 7 left. No burst bottles or gushers. However this is very juice specific - you want to use low nitrogen juice (no fertilizer) and keep the bottles in a place where they wont do any damage if they burst

I have read here in different threads about "pitching yeast", but what is "pitching yeast"?

Pitching yeast is when you add yeast to your primary to begin fermentation. So when someone says to add campden and wait 24 hours before pitching yeast they mean wait till the next day to add your yeast.

CvilleKevin said:

1. At least 2-3 months
2. Its a sour bitterness. You can probably taste it in that first batch that is in progress.
3. It can age in bottle
4. Depends on the style. A sweet cider doesnt need much, if any time in the secondary. For early season batches, I've gone from pressing to keg in as little as two weeks for a sweeter cider. A dry cider is going to take more like 6 months, in which case skipping the campden doesnt really save any time.
5. Trust but verify - you should check out the press before skipping the campden. If they are really anal about sanitation then you can skip the campden. One thing you want to check for is absence of fruit flies around the operation, because the only way to get rid of them is to clean the hell out of everything on a daily basis. If anything looks the slightest bit sketchy use a half dose of campden. Full dose is overkill for cider

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Hi Cvillekevin I was reading ur posts and hoping u may be available to help on a question reguarding Campden tablets?.... it clearly says not to drink or get close to the skin, eyes when using them, but iv watched loads of vids with ppl throwing them into ther buckets and spraying the liquid like there's no tmrw.. am I missing something here? Do they not harm us if we drink the crushed tablet in our H.brew? Cheers