Vortec Bottles

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upperNY01brewer

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Boy o' boy sure do wish I could get my hands on a boat load of those Vortec bottles Miller Lite uses....I'm sure that has to add to the overall flavor to any homebrew we could put into them...Two thumbs up to Miller for coming up with such an innovative design in bottling technology...:ban:
 
its nice the big names spend so much money pumping into their R&D for making their crummy beer taste better, when if they just put it into better ingredients the wouldn't have to hype up stupid marketing schemes
 
its nice the big names spend so much money pumping into their R&D for making their crummy beer taste better, when if they just put it into better ingredients the wouldn't have to hype up stupid marketing schemes

What do you mean by "better" ingredients?!?

They use exactly the same ingredients we do in our beers. It's not like they're using "artificial" malt. Or "instant water," or Hops that are really made from petroleum.
 
Come on Revvy, you know as well as the rest of us that their beers use a ton of adjuncts to replace malt. Those beers are flavorless, as designed to be.
 
Come on Revvy, you know as well as the rest of us that their beers use a ton of adjuncts to replace malt. Those beers are flavorless, as designed to be.

And we don't use corn or rice in OUR beers? Or sugar? :rolleyes:

So come one mike, maybe you need to learn some facts about their beer, and WHY they use adjuncts to begin with.

Some truth instead of the usually elitist "we're better than them", "beerwars" bull**** that we beersnobs like to rub over ourselves like kinky butter. ;)

The whole history of the light lager is the American populace's (not the brewer's) desire to have a lighter beer to drink, which forced the German brewers to look at adding adjuncts like corn and rice...not as the popular homebrewer's myth has been to make money by peddling and "inferior commercial product" by adding adjuncts, but in order to come up with a style of beer that the American people wanted.

Maureen Ogle proved that in Ambitious Brew it actually made the cost of a bottle of Budweiser cost around 17.00/bottle in today's dollars. Gee I've paid 17 dollars for a bomber of beer before...not too much difference there, eh?

When AH released Budweiser with it's corn and rice adjuncts in the 1860's it was the most expensive beer out there; a single bottle retailed for $1.00 (what would equal in today's Dollars for $17.00) this was quite difference when a schooner of beer usually cost a nickel.

This is the part that blows the "cost cutting" argument out of the water. In order to use those adjuncts you have to process them separately from the rest of the mash, and then add it to the mash. You either have to do a cereal mash to pr-gelatinize them or you have to roll them with heat to make them flaked...either way, besides the labor and energy involved to grow and harvest those plants, you expend labor and energy to make them usuable. You have to boil them in a cereal mash. That's another couple hours of labor and energy involved in the cost of the product.

It wasn't done to save money, it was done because heavy beers (both english style Ales and the heavier Bavarian malty beers) were not being drunk by American consumers any more. Beer initally was seen around the world as food (some even called it liquid bread), but since America, even in the 1800's was a prosperous nation compared to the rest of the world, and americans ate meat with nearly every meal, heavy beers had fallen out of favor...


And American 6-row Barley just made for heavy, hazy beer.

The American populace ate it up!

The market WAS in a sense, craving light lagers...The German brewers didn't want to make the switch. They were perfectly happy with their bocks and all those other great heavy German Beers. But the rest of us weren't into it.

Bush and other German Brewers started looking at other styles of Beers, and came upon Karl Balling and Anton Schwartz's work at the Prague Polytechnic Institute with the Brewers in Bohemia who when faced with a grain shortage started using adjuncts, which produced the pils which was light, sparkly and fruity tasting...just the thing for American tastebuds.

So the brewers brought Schwartz to America where he went to work for American Brewer Magazine writing articles and technical monographs, teaching American brewers how to use Rice and Corn...

The sad moral of the story is....The big corporate brewers did not foist tasteless adjunct laced fizzy water on us, like the popular mythology all of us beersnobs like to take to bed with us to feel all warm and elitist....it was done because our American ancestors wanted it.

Blame your grandfather for having lousy taste in beer, NOT the brewers themselves. Like everything in business, they had to change or die.

Maureen Ogle's book Ambitious Brew is the best and most historically accurate of American Beer History books out there. I can't recommend it enough. It's a lot more accurate than "Beer Wars."

It a dose of reality. I used to believe the same stuff you all did until I read it. It's kinda humbling to realize we're NOT "the pawns of an evil corporate empire" after all.

ambitious-brew-the-story-of-american-beer-20802185.jpeg


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0151010129/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Her blog archive has a lot of material covering the imbev takeover or Anheiseur Bush as well as stuff that didin't make it into here original book, so I encourage you to dig through that as well.


http://maureenogle.com/blog/

It clears up a lot of stuff like this, and busts a ton of myths like this one.


Listen to this from Basic Brewing;

November 30, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part One
We learn about the history of beer in the USA from Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part one takes us from the Pilgrims to Prohibition.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr11-30-06.mp3

December 7, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Part Two
We continue our discussion about the history of beer in the USA with Maureen Ogle, author of "Ambitious Brew - The Story of American Beer." Part two takes us from Prohibition to the present day.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr12-07-06.mp3

That's why I find the arguments the "bud basher's" like to use so amusing...It's so historically inaccurate. It really is our ancestor's fault that BL is the most popular beer in the world.

And they had choices back then as well. They didn't HAVE to drink that style, they chose too. ;)

That's why I'm so about, let folks like what they like, and WE like what we like, and there's plenty for ALL to go around.
 
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And how different really is the Miller Vortx bottle, from Sam Adam's fancy beer glass?

It's the same principle, it's all about nucleation points and agitating the beer as it pours to kick the co2 up and lift any aromas and flavors to our nose.
 
But aren't 'those' beers supposed to have NO flavor?

They actually have flavor....Just not flavor enough for those of us who like fuller bodied beers, OR not a flavor we necessarily like. I don't like Bud, because I don't like rice adjuncted beers, but I do enjoy corn adjuncted beers.

So trying various "Lagers" including those from microbreweries, I made a list of the ones I hated and the ones that were ok; trying to figure out why I liked some and not the others. Finding out that I like corn adjuncted lagers and not rice ones like sapporo and bud.

Millers, Michelob, Labatts, PBR, Strohs, Schlitz, I will drink, and many like Strohs and pabsts (the original 70's recipes I will actually buy and enjoy...to me te two main bud products just taste horrible to me.

I really like Labatt's blue.

One of our members just brought me a mixed case of Yuengling's, both the "traditional lager" and the Lord Chesterfield's ale. And the Lager is actually darker than the ale. And it is full of flavor. At least compared to Bud.
 
Holy "Wet Blanket", Batman!

So, the TRUTH is less fun than a bunch of ignorant based hate?

My thing about all this is....The craft beer industry has existed since right around the time I turned 21, about 24 years ago...at least that's when I first noticed there were OTHER beers around besides BMC....there was snpa, and bell's and sam adams starting to pop up in a few stores in Metro Detroit at that time, as well as imports like Guiness, Bredore's and Double Diamond (from England- the first non bmc bottled beer I ever bought)...This stuff was first in my awareness in the mid to late 80's....

In fact when I was underaged I had my first taste of bud, spat it out and made my decision that beer sucked...and drank other things in the interum, mostly wine, and bourbon...in fact the first legal drink I ever bought was a bottle of calvados. Yet, since I loved to read, I always heard about beers like guiness, and other things...so I kept hearing that there was "good beer" out there.

Then I turned 21 and shortly after, like I said above, I began to see these OTHER beers around in bars and better beer/wine stores around my college campus. Plus the first micro brewery was in a resteraunt near campus as well.

I think my first non BMC beer I tried in a bar, was a guiness....And, as much as I think little of it NOW, it was a soul changing moment...I truly found out that there was something better than a budlight out there.

The point being..There has been alternative to BMC somewhat readily available since probably 1985...and more and more everyday.

Despite bmc's control over distribution craft, or imported beer has managed to be available to one degree or another for a lond time.

And now with commercials for Sam Adams, and even a show about dogfish head on one of the most popular cable channels...it really is NOT invisible anymore...if it ever was...And I don't believe it ever was.

Just like it was my choice to explore the world of beer for 24 years, it has been other folks choice to make Budlight the best selling beer on the planet, despite the fact that personally it makes me want to puke. Craft beers make other folks want to puke...It's just the way it is.

It's not AHB's "fault" that their product is the top seller...Nor is it totally a vast conspiracy to manipulate the marketplace as some of us beer snobs want to convince ourselves (though it does go on to a greater or lesser extent) But it's NOT the main...

The main reason is that more folks like those safe, (flavorless to me) light lager style of beer.

And despite a 10% loss of sales over time...it's still going to be the top seller in the market place...

Why? Because the majority of folks choose it over the vast array of other products out there. It simply reflects the relatively safe tastes of human beings...especially the american populace.

Most people are afraid to try new things...so their horizens or limited...but there's also going to be folks, who DO try craft beers....and go back to BMC...because that's what they prefer....there's nothing wrong with them...it's just their choice....

People like what they like. If they like Bud Light, that's their ****ing perogative. Just like it is our choice to like the alternatives...that's just the way it is.
 
Bravo, revvy! Well spoken. After hi school I supported the 3 main food groups: bottle, can, &keg. My soul changer was Stone's Levitation ale. A session beer of the beer snob sort. Tomorrow I brew 10 gals of a delicious hoppy IRIPA, and in a few weeks, I will raise a glass to you! Happy brewing
 
People like what they like. If they like Bud Light, that's their ****ing perogative. Just like it is our choice to like the alternatives...that's just the way it is.

You feel the need to defend these offended BMC drinkers from a clearly light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek post at the expense of your fellow HBT'ers because...
 
Thank you Revvy!


You feel the need to defend these offended BMC drinkers from a clearly light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek post at the expense of your fellow HBT'ers because...

Do we really need a millionth thread pointlessly bashing BMC to clog up a main subforum, not to mention the main forum?
 
You feel the need to defend these offended BMC drinkers from a clearly light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek post at the expense of your fellow HBT'ers because...

Thank you Revvy!


Do we really need a millionth thread pointlessly bashing BMC to clog up a a main subforum, not to mention the main forum?

+1

AnthonyC, I guess my "fellow" HBT'ers aren't all in agreement with you about it it, eh? In fact most of "my fellow" HBT-er's tend to find Bud Bashing, pretty boring. Especially when it's based on such hackneyed and innacurate arguments like "The big bad evil BMC put corn and rice in their beers to cut costs."
 
Apparently. Didn't realize this was all business. Got it.

Here I was thinking this was a light hearted Friday afternoon. What was I thinking. I won't let it happen again.
 
+1

AnthonyC, I guess my "fellow" HBT'ers aren't all in agreement with you about it it, eh? In fact most of "my fellow" HBT-er's tend to find Bud Bashing, pretty boring. Especially when it's based on such hackneyed and innacurate arguments like "The big bad evil BMC put corn and rice in their beers to cut costs."

Yea, thanks Revvy. This thread just went down the tubes with a bunch of giant thread rehash. Because of one part of one sentence that you (understandably) didn't agree with.

IMO, the vortec thing was a slightly funny topic, but now is clearly derailed, probably permanently.
 
Blame your grandfather for having lousy taste in beer, NOT the brewers themselves.

Nope, my family wasn't here when AB started brewing colored water, we were still in Europe enjoying real beer.

However, you missed point when you got up on your soapbox and had your little rant. Hence my notation that their beers are designed with no flavor.

They could choose to make a beer with flavor, and they choose not to. The marketplace is different today.
 
I don't have a problem with these kind of threads when they aren't on the main technical forum. General chit chat or DRMM is fine, because I will get my drama fix by arguing with someone when I know it is pointless.

They get old and boring really fast and honestly I find myself judging the OP. What is thier purpose? ...to feel good about themselve by getting everyone to rally around them?

Thats fine but not in the technical forum
 
Nope, my family wasn't here when AB started brewing colored water, we were still in Europe enjoying real beer.

However, you missed point when you got up on your soapbox and had your little rant. Hence my notation that their beers are designed with no flavor.

They could choose to make a beer with flavor, and they choose not to. The marketplace is different today.

This is why these get old. Revvy clearly explains that they are what people wanted and currently want but you wont even aknowledge that. We as homebrewers find it hard to swallow that a beer style that we are supposed t hate is the largest seller on the entire planet, and didn't get that way just because of marketing tactics.

The market place is only different today because people have MORE access to craft beer. There are very few examples of pre-prohibition beer currently availible...the big one being Yuengleng Lager. It really isn't much different from the other light lagers, but fits the classic american light lager profile because it is under 30% corn (or is it 20%? I have to check my research paper).
 
This is why these get old. Revvy clearly explains that they are what people wanted and currently want but you wont even aknowledge that. We as homebrewers find it hard to swallow that a beer style that we are supposed t hate is the largest seller on the entire planet, and didn't get that way just because of marketing tactics.

This is why these get old: people get on here and write novellas attacking others for having the audacity of having an opinion different than their own.
 
Boy o' boy sure do wish I could get my hands on a boat load of those Vortec bottles Miller Lite uses....I'm sure that has to add to the overall flavor to any homebrew we could put into them...Two thumbs up to Miller for coming up with such an innovative design in bottling technology...:ban:

This is why these get old: people get on here and write novellas attacking others for having the audacity of having an opinion different than their own.

Don't see much of an opinion expressed in the original post...
 
I wasn't the original poster, and I don't see the OP talking about the bottles contents at all...
 
They actually have flavor....Just not flavor enough for those of us who like fuller bodied beers, OR not a flavor we necessarily like.

I was only kidding, I actually like Bud (regular). Light beers can be used in radiators as far as I am concerned, but I laugh when people rip Bud. It doesn't taste much different than any pilsner I've ever had... yes, I mean REAL pilsner.

I love Genny Cream Ale too. Legitimately. Not in a "man if I was mowing my lawn" type of way (I don't even have a lawn), but in a "man I wouldn't mind a Genny or a Bud right" now type of way.

EDIT: You really like Yuengling? I've never understood that beer. It leaves me with such a horrible aftertaste. Around here, people snatch that crap up like crazy. That is certainly a beer with wide appeal. If I judged just on my friends alone, it would be more popular than Sam Adams, which I think is 100 times better.
 
I wasn't the original poster, and I don't see the OP talking about the bottles contents at all...

Exactly. Everyone go back and look at the first several posts, all generally discussing the bottle (and how silly it is). Look back there and see how this thread derailed into a BMC bashing session. Just have a look.

I don't think the OP is to blame. Let's call a spade a spade here.

It's about time to duct tape some C4 to this thread, unroll some det cord, and push the plunger. Too bad, I sorta like those vortec bottles.
 
I was only kidding, I actually like Bud (regular). Light beers can be used in radiators as far as I am concerned, but I laugh when people rip Bud. It doesn't taste much different than any pilsner I've ever had... yes, I mean REAL pilsner.

I love Genny Cream Ale too. Legitimately. Not in a "man if I was mowing my lawn" type of way (I don't even have a lawn), but in a "man I wouldn't mind a Genny or a Bud right" now type of way.

EDIT: You really like Yuengling? I've never understood that beer. It leaves me with such a horrible aftertaste. Around here, people snatch that crap up like crazy. That is certainly a beer with wide appeal. If I judged just on my friends alone, it would be more popular than Sam Adams, which I think is 100 times better.

I know you were. :mug:

I just tried Genny cream 2 weeks ago at a vintage base ball match I umpired. It was pretty non-descript, but seemed to have more flavor then Bud.

Yeah, I just tried Yuengling for the first time, since it's now penetrated the Ohio market, and some of our members from up here went down to get some. It's a lot better than I thought it would. I'm surprisingly impressed with the beers I tried. Some of the guys on here are raving about the porter and black and tan. I like how it's one of the few macrobreweries still brewing ales.

That horrible aftertaste you get with Yuengling, is what I tend to get with Bud products, along with a headache in my temple, and the desire to scrape my tongue clean. It's cloyingly sweet. Which I don't get from Yuengling. But everyone's tastes are different.

If we wanna call spades spades, it's really funny how some folks who are most vocal about the "turn this thread took" and defending it, never bothered to post any "lighthearted jabs" in it or anything, until I wrote what I wrote.....
 
EDIT: You really like Yuengling? I've never understood that beer. It leaves me with such a horrible aftertaste. Around here, people snatch that crap up like crazy. That is certainly a beer with wide appeal. If I judged just on my friends alone, it would be more popular than Sam Adams, which I think is 100 times better.

I don't drink much lager, but when I do, it is usually Yuengling. I used to live in Tampa, and they opened a brewery down there 10-15 years ago. They had a great brewery tour, which ended at the bar on premises. I used to stop by fairly frequently, so they just started sending me straight into the bar. There were many times that I sat there drinking a beer with the brewer, and talking about the craft.
 
I don't drink much lager, but when I do, it is usually Yuengling. I used to live in Tampa, and they opened a brewery down there 10-15 years ago. They had a great brewery tour, which ended at the bar on premises. I used to stop by fairly frequently, so they just started sending me straight into the bar. There were many times that I sat there drinking a beer with the brewer, and talking about the craft.

Have you tried the Lord Chesterfield's ale?

What surprised me is that it is fizzy yellow, while the "traditional lager" is actually darker, like an amber lager. I thought I got the cans mixed up.
 
To be honest, not too crazy abouth the Chesterfield, which is why I don't like their black and tan either. The porter's decent, but the lager seems to be their best product in my book.
 
Here's some great science and information from that reliable spout of veracity and scientific method: youtube.

Vortex bottle showdown: vortex vs non-vortex, speed into glass (as if that matters):


Does the beer actually "vortex" or spin:



Chug test: vortex vs. non


And, finally, the Miller marketing girls explaining the "tornado of flavor"
 
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wow that got out of hand..

my original post was mostly talking about just the about of unnecessary cash they throw out just to throw it out there.. the following posts were informative, which only proved my point, that they spend too much money on marketing schemes when people would drink their beer anyways because that is what people know of since its been a staple so long..

yes i agree that they use typically "good" ingredients, and that maybe back in the day it was an innovative process to make their beer, but by todays standards their beer is well overpriced and, just like many companies, fails to innovate to keep up with today's slowly changing market.. i'm fine with them producing what they are good at, but don't push cold activated bottles (which is even worse than other), vortex bottles, or any other new schemes they come up with instead of just lowering their prices.. where i live (just about an hour from the original yuengling brewery) i can get a case of their lager cheaper just just about any AMC product..

and referring to the comment that they made what america wants, which may have been totally true when they first came out, isn't as true anymore.. i can't understand how many people i know that only drink those beers because it is what their parents drink etc.. for most people beer is a sort of acquired case, and they were mostly conditioned to like those because they have the most marketing and it is easier to drink a ton of those to get wasted..

first drinking beer i can equate to if you have ever smoked before.. i used to be a smoker and the only reason you ever start is to try something new or other similar reasons.. nobody EVER likes their first cigarette and i would think that most people aren't in love with the first time they try beer, but they are the heavy hitters in the beer industry since they throw so much cash around so that is what most people get accustomed to.. most people think that guinness is beer that looks and tastes like oil, though majority of people that i have talked to about that haven't ever drank it, or only did years and years ago.. the fact that it is just as smooth if not smoother drinking than many light lagers is way past them..

and speaking of pointless marketing and such.. the whole super light beer with less carbs is even more of a joke.. i challenge anybody to drink one of the low carb beers and not agree that it does not taste the same as the regular light beers except watered down, but for the same price.. same instance when if you go to a grocery store and buy a candy bar that claims to be 25% less fat, then notice that it is 25% less in size than the other ones..

i know that was a huge rant that went from east to west and back east again, but those are problems with the industry that i find troublesome that people don't tend to realize.. most craft breweries seem to not have such a big corporate agenda, though maybe that is because they are young, or maybe because they care differently about their product.. i do appreciate the history lesson, though only enforces the fact that the big breweries of today (not of yester year) don't care as much about their actual product as they do about their image and brand
 
my original post was mostly talking about just the about of unnecessary cash they throw out just to throw it out there..


Marketing - that's the American way my friend. Look at the marketing budgets of Ford/GM/Chrysler compared with those of imported cars for example. When you're watching some of the new TV shows, on some, you'll see almost exclusively 1 make of automobiles. Ford for some shows, GM for others. Ford also sponsors American Idol. The judges on American Idol all have Coke cups in front of them, with the logos facing the camera. More marketing....

I talked with a relative, who worked for Ford for many years, about why they won't put more of their marketing money into R&D and make a better car instead of more commercials. He agreed (he worked in R&D, so that may have influenced his answer), but his response was basically that they're right where they want to be in the market place. They're successful at selling cars, and making money doing it. B/M/C is successful at selling beer they way they are..... and they're geniuses at marketing.

More power to them, I say. It makes "craft beer" all that more mysterious, unique, and interesting.

I was listening to Charles Bamforth's "Brewmaster's Art" a few weeks ago in the car and he was defending the American Lager with multiple arguments, one of which where he stated how it's probably the beer that shows flaws the easiest, forcing higher quality control standards than other beer types. That, and consistency (taste, color, clarity, etc) through worldwide distribution at hundreds of breweries, which I consider a feat in itself. If I remember right, during the tour at the St. Louis Budweiser plant, they said that a sample of each batch, worldwide, is flown back to them (daily) for sampling before it's allowed to go out. Pretty impressive.
 
Oh, and my first impression with the "Vortex" bottle made me think that the pour was faster because the neck and mouth were wider.

Can anyone measure the mouth diameter vs. a standard longneck? I was sure the caps were a different size.
 
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