Results from juice, yeast and sugar experiments

SNO - glad to hear that the Youngs worked out for you!

Thanks for the info - I didnt realize that pectic enzyme could be added after fermentation. I'll try adding some after the crash to one of the batches that doesnt already have it. It would be a lot more useful to add the enzyme at the end of the process, because that is when it is apparent whether the cider needs some help to clear or not. I'd rather not add anything if I dont need to. Did the batch where you added enzyme before fermentation get as clear?

I'm wondering if the weather might have had some effect on how the juice cleared because earlier this year I did some batches that were a Cortland, Gala, Mac mix, which are all low pectin and almost identical to a similar mix that I did last year - but last year they all got nice and clear, whereas this year some of them are still hazy.

Yeah, I'm excited to see what it tastes like after I bottle carbonate. It's definitely got some tang but I believe there is a good amount of apple flavor and nose and the yeast is reasonably priced, even with shipping from UK.

I had never tried adding the pectic enzyme after fermentation but read that this could be done in some of the forums. I am assuming that there is a reason it is generally added prior to fermentation but have not been able to find any discussion of the affect on flavor, etc. I think you'll be pleased with the clarity provided by using the enzyme after the crash. Like you, I hate using uneccesary additives but do prefer a clear cider, especially for sparkling. The batch that I added enzyme before pitching is still clearing at the moment. I transferred to secondary at about 1.005 so there was still a bit of activity but I believe it will clear nicely as the yeast activity dies down. I'll let you know in about 3 weeks.

The weather could have had an effect, I guess my expertise as far as effect of weather on pectin production is limited. I know the weather had an effect on the juice I got, but only because the press had limited availability based on low production. They are done for the season and I've got a fridge full of yeast that I purchased for experiments. I had to fight over the five gallons for this last batch with the Young's yeast with some guy down at the Fareway. I won but I know they were holding out on me... I did manage to find another press that can supply me the 20 gallons I need for the experiments in late January. Unpasteurized; the blend is 50% Jonathon, and 50% blend of some or all of the following Wealthy, Gala, Red Delicious, Honeycrisp, and Cortland. Sounds like a strong cider, I'm hoping it will work nicely for the experiments. I'm now struggling over whether I'll add pectic enzyme prior to pitching since I've had issues with all the batches I've made this year but I guess I'll decide on the fly. I will definitely be adding yeast nutrients as I have come to the conclusion that my earlier issues with off smells during fermentation were related to yeast health, particularly because I use honey to increase SG. I don't think there is much effect on flavor and it's a small price to pay to ensure a good end product. I noted from my reading through your posts that you don't add any nutrient and I wish I could get the same effect without the addition but now I've got about 15 gallons that will have to age for longer than I had hoped (no cider until at least February...damn).

I got apples from a local orchard for my cider. The orchardist is an old time cider man, and the mixture he provided was based on: Mutsu, Winesap, Jonathan, and Cortland. S.G. of the juice was 1.070, and it fermented out to O.G. 1.002. I sterilized with campden tablets(1 per gal). Additives used were: 1tbsp pectic enzyme, 2 tbsp yeast nutrient, 1 tsp citric acid. This was a 6gal batch. Yeast was Lalvin DV-10.
At bottling time it was dry and tart, with a bitter taste from the seeds because I was using a fitness juicer to express my juice. I primed with 3/4 cups of raw local honey heated in a cup of the cider to 150degrees for 5 mins. Backsweetened w/1 tbsp per gal "Stevia In The Raw. Chilled a bottle at 2 weeks after bottling, and opened the next day. Great carbonation, great apple flavors, and all the bitterness gone. Tasted quite similar to Original Sin. Can't wait for next season. Thanks, Mack

Primary: Maybe Cyser this weekend
Secondary: Nada
Bottled: Sweet Spiced Mead, 2 batches Cider, Brewer's Best Scottish Ale

Kevin, Thanks for all of the work and research you have done with all of this. I started two one gallons of pasteurized apple cider about one year ago based on your postings. I didn't really keep good records and I did not have any idea what I was doing. I think I used an addition of honey in one and turbinado sugar in the other one. I used SO4 yeast. I racked it a couple of times and then it has sat in my basement for the last twelve months. Well, about two weeks ago, I got one of the gallons, racked it into a bottling bucket with 3/4's of a can of apple concentrate in an attempt to backsweeten it and hopefully bottle condition it. As you can imagine, it was really, really dry after a year.

After about 10 days, it started to carbonate and it has turned out to be one of the finest tasting drinks I have ever had. I didn't think it would carbonate after a year, but it did. Kind of sweet but tart and amazingly refreshing. I can't wait to bottle the other gallon and then make a tremendous amount more. Thanks.

I pressed cider that had a s.g. of 1.070. I added nothing and used DV-10 yeast. Backsweetened with "Stevia in The Raw" at 1 tbsp/quart, and primed with 3/4 cup raw honey for a 5 gal batch. Excellent carbonation, and the taste is very similar to 'Original Sin". When you open a bottle the aroma is like someone just crushed tart apples under your nose. I agree with your evaluation of Cotes de Blanc. Cider made with the same juice as above came out dry and almost tasteless.

CvilleKevin said:

This year my favorite was a Gold Rush, so I'll be looking for that one next year.

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Just planted a standard goldrush last year and have two more on semidwarf rootstock that I am planting in the spring - great to hear the positive work on this cultivar!

CvilleKevin said:

I thought I could compensate for the lack of finish by adding some acid blend so I added ½ teaspoon of LD Carlson Citric, Malic, Tartaric blend to a test gallon, but it didn’t give me what I was looking for. It dropped the pH by a couple tenths and made the juice taste more tangy in the mouth, but didn’t add anything to the finish and it stomped on the spicy part of the flavor. The juice was already tangy enough in the mouth, it just didn’t have any tang in the finish. Not really much finish at all. Since the acid blend didn’t really help that, I didn’t use it. So lesson learned – acid blend can provide more tang in the mouth if the juice is missing that, but it wont give you a nice finish if the juice doesn’t already have one. It retrospect, I wish I had paid full price for a couple bushels of pippens to throw in the mix, but I think it will be OK. I’m planning to let these go a little drier than usual, so that the little bit of acid that is in the juice will be more prominent. Time will tell if that works.

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Have you ever tried using just malic acid? I find that as a apple tartness addition it works way better than acid blend. Malic acid is the acid found in apples. Acid blend is citric (citrus fruits), Tartaric (grapes) and malic.

If you need to bring in an appley tart - give malic acid only a try - you will be impressed far beyond the results you get from acid blend.

Thanks for this great thread Kevin, along with all the effort you have put into this labor of love

I am about to kick off my first batch of cider and I would like to hear your favorite yeast for a cider finishing semi-sweet with a good fruity/apple flavor, is S04 still your choice?

Thanks

HW

Have you ever tried using just malic acid

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No - the blend was something I've had on my shelf for years so I used that. If I have to deal with low acid juice again, I'll probably get some MA, but the main lesson I took away from that was dont leave out the tart apples in the mix, even if they cost extra.

yeast for a cider finishing semi-sweet with a good fruity/apple flavor, is S04 still your choice

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I'm really liking Brewpaks Ale yeast. I havent used it as much as S04, but I've had really good results with it this year. Its hard to find though. I have to get it from UK. Wyeast 3056 is another favorite. Its hard to beat S04 though. Keep in mind that its all somewhat subjective. SWMBO likes Wy3068 and a batch I made with that took first at the Dominion cup last year. I didnt think it was as good as a couple others that I entered, but the judges really liked it.

This past week was fairly busy for ciderin'

I got all 22 of the latest experimenatal batches crashed and have bottled 10 of the new yeast experiments. The clarifier experiments are still crashing in the fridge.

I had to go out of town for work for a few days and a few of these got more dry than I wanted them to, but given the overall low acid, that was probably a good thing, because none of them were overly harsh, even though they've had zero aging.

The new yeast batches were all with unpasteurized juice. If these were keg batches, I would normally rack them again into another carboy and let them sit for a week or two after the crash to continue to clear before kegging, but for gallon batches, its generally not worth cleaning another bunch of jugs, so coming out of the fridge, I racked these right into botttles. Some of these have already cleared fairly well, but they will all likely continue to clear in the bottle and drop some sediment. The S04, Wy1084, Brewferm wheat and Wy1728 were the most clear after a few days of crashing. Its still early days, but they all tasted at least decent, and some fairly good going into to the bottle and will hopefully continue to improve. Here are some preliminary notes on the new yeast experiments, which left to right are as follows:



S04 (the control on this batch of juice) - crashed after 14 days at 1.006 tastes good, a little on the dry side, but good balance
Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale - crashed after 14 days at 1.002, a bit bland but nice finish
Wyeast 1272 American Ale II - crashed after 14 days at 1.004, starts dry but finishes nice, the jug swelled a bit during the crash, so may be a little harder to crash
White Labs WLP023 Burton Ale - crashed after 14 days at 1.006, smooth, nice appley finish, the jug swelled a bit during the crash, so may be a little harder to crash
Brewferm Blanche (dry wheat yeast) - crashed after 14 days at 1.002. Tastes sweeter than 1.002. I wish I had caught this one sooner, but overall I'd say this is the best tasting dry wheat yeast that I've worked with. Probably still not as good as the liquid wheat yeasts, but time will tell. Also came out the most clear after the crash, which I would not expect for a wheat yeast
Wyeast 2112 California Lager - crashed after 14 days at 1.008, tastes OK, although not as appley as I expected, considering fg was 1.008
Wyeast 1728 Scottish Ale - crashed after 14 days at 1.002, tastes sweeter than sg would indicate, nice finish
White Labs WLP775 English Cider - crashed after 14 days at 1.002, a bit bland but balance is OK
White Labs WLP810 San Francisco Lager - crashed after 16 days at 1.010, smells good, has a lot of citric acid up front, a bit yeasty and maybe some fusel alcohol taste. A little sweet in the finish, but the acid/sugar balance works
White Labs WLP028 Edinburgh Ale - crashed after 16 days at 1.008, smells good, big flavor up front, nice finish

still in the fridge:
White Labs WLP041 Pacific Ale - crashed after 21 days at 1.022, the fermentation seemed to be stuck for the past week. At first it was overly sweet, but then started slowly picking up a Malic Acid taste in the finish, which gave it enough zip to balance the sweetness, although SG didnt change. This could be an interesting one to experiment some more with
British yeast mix - crashed after 14 days at 1.000, decent flavor for so dry

Also still crashing in the fridge are the 10 UV-pasteurized batches that I am going to use for experimenting with different clarifiers. These 10 batches I will rack again before adding the clarifier.

Even though I havent added any of the clarifiers yet, there were some interesting differences between the 5 batches with pectin enzyme added ahead of time vs the 5 batches without the pectic enzyme:

The 5 batches with the pectic enzyme were a lot lighter in color, which I expected. What I didnt expect is that they also fermented quite a bit faster than the batches without the enzyme, and even a little bit faster than the gallon of unpasteurized juice, even though all 11 batches used the same S04 yeast. After 14 days, the 5 UV pasteurized batches with pectic enzyme were all at 1.004, while the 5 UV pasteurized batches without the enzyme were all at 1.008. The unpasteurized batch was at 1.006. I crashed all the batches with the enzyme, but it took another 4 days for the 5 batches without the enzyme to ferment down to 1.004 (I liked the taste a little better at 1.008, but wanted to crash these all at the same point so that when I added the clarifiers, the other factors (yeast, juice and FG) would be as consistent as possible).

I suspect that what is going on is that when the pectic enzyme breaks down the pectin, the result is extra nutrients which speeds the fermentation. Pasteurizing the juice sets the pectin, making it less available as nutrient, hence UV pasteurized juice with no pectin enzyme is a little slower than unpasteurized, but adding the pectic enzyme breaks down the pectin, making nutrients more available, hence the faster fermentation.

The pectic enzyme may also make the juice harder to crash, because all 5 of the jugs with the enzyme are noticably swollen after being racked and crashed for several days, while the batches without the enzyme seem to have stopped dead without any additonal swelling in the fridge - although to be fair, the batches with the enzyme have been in the fridge longer, so I'm going to let them all go a while longer to see if the batches without the enzyme eventually swell.

Finally, when I racked the pasteurized batches before the crash, the sediment in all 5 of the batches without the pectic enzyme was much more compact than the 5 gallons with the enzyme, and also much more compact than what I normally see with unpasteurized juice. All of the batches looked about the same from the outside, with about a half inch of sediment on the bottom and clear juice on top. For the batches with the enzyme, the sediment layer was similar to what I normally see with unpasteurized juice - a muddy but still somewhat fluid layer that you have to be careful not to syphon up with the clear layer into the fresh jug. The sediment in the untreated pasteurized juice was much more solid and I was able to get almost all the clear juice out without sucking any sediment up. When the jug was empty, the sediment on the bottom looked like a solid rubbery mass, with little craters and holes in it - sorta like a pancake looks before you flip it. The trub left in the jugs with the enzyme, looked more like muddy water. The net result was that on the pre-crash rack, I was able to get a good bit more clear juice from the jugs without the enzyme. I'm not sure why this would be the case, but something about the way the UV sets the pectin also makes the sediment much more compact and rubbery - even though the clear juice on top is not quite as clear. Strange.

CvilleKevin, Do you have some of your best recipes listed somewhere?

Do you have some of your best recipes listed somewhere?

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They're sorta scattered around this thread. The general process I use is described on page 3. I havent changed it much since then, other than I've stopped using k-meta completely and I've started blowing CO2 on the cider whenever I rack and to fill headspace (not really necessary if drinking withing 6 months, but helps prevent oxidation for 12+ month storage). Starting with good juice is key, which is a challenge if you dont live in apple country.

A list of some of yeasts which I've had good results with is on page 33. My current favorites are S04, Brupack Ale, US05, Notty, Wy3068 and Wy3056. I also like Wy1010, although it tends to get a little stinky during the ferment. Wy3333 is good for bottle carbing a sweet cider via nitrogen reduction, but I really do not recommend doing this until you have a couple of seasons of successful cold crashing under your belt and are prepared to deal with potential burst bottles.

Speaking of which, earlier this eve I sampled the 4th bottle of a Wy3333 batch that I bottled in late October. It is just now getting a decent carb to it. I bottled it at 1.010 and its probably dropped about a point and a half. The taste is still a little on the sweet side, so hopefully it will carb up just a little bit more when the weather warms up. I just crashed another batch that was made with Wy3333 (Pink Lady/York mix, pressed on 12/20/10). I let this batch go a little drier, to 1.008 and am planning to bottle 2 or 3 days after the crash instead of waiting 5 days like I did last time.

CvilleKevin said:

The sediment in the untreated pasteurized juice was much more solid and I was able to get almost all the clear juice out without sucking any sediment up. When the jug was empty, the sediment on the bottom looked like a solid rubbery mass, with little craters and holes in it - sorta like a pancake looks before you flip it.

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I had a batch give me the holey pancake as well. I am in TX, so no fancy fresh juice like you use, just Tree Top or Simply Apple and WLP775. It was my first time using a metal keg to ferment/crash in (no pre-crash rack), so I thought it may have been due to the more rapid crash from the metal, but maybe not. That idea came from something I read that, theoretically at least, crashing is supposed to work better with a more rapid initial temp change. I am going to try to submerge my crashing vessel in a tub of ice water next time to see.

Adding to the confusion, I also ran out of pectic enzyme, so I only used 1/4 the usual in one keg, and none in the other. Something else I read said that using pectic enzyme (in the presence of pectin) may cause the creation of more methanol. I got clear enough cider last time without the pectic enzyme and crashing in metal, so I may simplify things and leave out the pectic enzyme.
Cliff

I searched the thread (and forum) and didn't get a hit but I thought I would double check anyway, has anybody done any tests with WPL500 Belgium Trappist yeast?

Cheers

HW

I liked it, wasnt real popular with friends. Try searching for WLP500

Kevin,

I keep thinking of something. You say you no longer use k-meta, but with the orchard juice there is bound to be a decent amount of wild yeast that makes its way into the batch from the apple skins.

Do you feel like this is an issue, or do you just pitch enough commercial yeast that the effect of the wild stuff is made insignificant?

Also, really appreciated your thoughts on sourcing an apple blend in terms of what to look for. Thanks for that!

Also wondering if your experiments have taken into account fermentation temperatures. Have you done any identical side by side batches fermented at different temps? If so, have you found a golden zone for cider? I imagine higher temps are gonna through in more esters and spicy notes while lower temps would be a bit cleaner. This could be a matter of preference of course.

Those bottles look great!

This is the most informative and interesting post I have read on this forum. Thanks for sharing!

Slainte

You say you no longer use k-meta, but with the orchard juice there is bound to be a decent amount of wild yeast that makes its way into the batch from the apple skins. Do you feel like this is an issue, or do you just pitch enough commercial yeast that the effect of the wild stuff is made insignificant?

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It seems to be dependent on the type of cultured yeast. Generally, ale yeasts like S04, Notty, US05 and Brupak take over pretty fast. There may be a bit of taste from the wild yeast, but not a lot. The wheat yeasts (3068, 3333, 3638, WLP3xx, etc) seem to be improved by the wild yeast because it gives them a little more bite in the finish - I think because the wild yeast produce a bit more malic acid, but I'm not sure exactly.

Much of that will depend on what type of wild yeast is present. I've found that the wild yeast in the two orchards that I mainly use ferments fairly well by itself - at least for the first part of the ferment, down to about 1.020 the cider tastes really good. Its only at the end of the ferment that the wild yeast gets finicky, and in almost all cases, the cultured yeast will have completely dominated the wild yeast by then. If one was dealing with some sort of wild yeast strain that didnt taste very good even at say 1.030, then it would probably be a good idea to knock the wild yeast out before introducing the cultured yeast. Otherwise, the cultured yeasts seem to be a lot happier, start faster, smell better, etc if I skip the k-meta and pitch as soon after the pressing as possible.

The only downside I've run into so far from keeping the wild was with a batch that I did early this season with a packet of Gervins English Ale (which I believe is from the same strain as Notty) that had expired. The ale yeast got a slow start and the wild yeast took over, with the result that it would not crash and fermented out fairly flavorless. So now I'm a lot more particular about expiration dates. In the past, I would buy yeast that was past its date for half price and never had any problems, but with wild yeast present, its not worth trying to save a few bucks.

Also wondering if your experiments have taken into account fermentation temperatures. Have you done any identical side by side batches fermented at different temps? If so, have you found a golden zone for cider? I imagine higher temps are gonna through in more esters and spicy notes while lower temps would be a bit cleaner. This could be a matter of preference of course.

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I havent done side-by-side at different temps. I dont really have space for a freezer, so I'm pretty much at the mercy of the basement temps. The best batches seem to be around 55-60 degrees, but a lot of that is because the timing is easier. The first batches of the season are usually fermented at 65-70 and ferment out very quickly. If I wait an extra day to crash them, its often too late and I end up with another keg of dry cider to save for next summer. This time of year, the cider is fermenting a lot more slowly, so if a batch tastes ready to crash, I still have several days to do it and life doesnt interfere with the cider operation so much.

Last weekend I bottled some of the experiments with different clearing agents, as well as a batch that I am bottle conditioning with Wy3333. Here's a shot of some of the bottles for comparison



1) On the far left is a batch from pasteurized juice, with no clarifying agents added. It was crashed for 7 days and remained very cloudy. However after being bottled for another 7 days, it is starting to clear on its own. This throws a bit of a wrench into my experiments, because in my experience UV pasteurized juice usually does not clear on its own for many, many months (which is why I used it for these experiments). But in this case its clearing on its own a week after the crash. You can see from the thickness of the sediment, how much was still in suspension at bottling time

2) Next is the control batch which is the same juice and yeast, but unpasteurized. As you can see, this batch cleared fairly well in the crash - not completely clear, but clear enough that it looks good in a pint glass. If this were a 5gal batch, I'd probably let it sit for another few weeks before kegging it, but if I was thirsty, there would be no problem kegging as-is

3) Third from the left is pasteurized juice with pectic enzyme added before the yeast. As you can see, its a lot more clear than pasteurized juice left to its own devices (far left), but still not quite as clear as plain unpasteurized juice with nothing (but yeast) added.

4) Third from the right is pasteurized juice with pectic enzyme added before the yeast and Super Kleer added after the crash. The Super Kleer worked very quickly - the jug was completely clear in about 2 days. None of the other additives that I used have got this clear - although most of them say to wait a couple of weeks, so I havent bottled them yet.

5) Second from the right is a bottle from the Wy3333 batch, which has unpasteurized juice, with honey added before the fermentation. I crashed it for 4 days, and then bottled. It is noticeably more clear than unpasteurized juice without the honey. The honey seems to work as a universal clarifier, like PE - except that it slows down the speed of ferment, making it easier to work with.

6) On the far right is a bottle from last year made with the same recipe (Wy3333 and orange blossom honey, crashed and bottled at 1.010). It has a nice bottle carb now, with no burst bottles so far (knock on wood). As you can see, it is every bit as clear as the batch with pectic enzyme, followed by super kleer. In about 3 months, the bottle next to it should be just as clear. The only difference is that you see there is a very fine layer of sediment at the bottom.

I plan to bottle the rest of the test batches later this week or maybe next weekend, but at this point it doesnt look like any of the other alternatives are working as well as pectic enzyme before the ferment + super kleer after the crash. This combination seems to work great, although how it tastes is still TBD. I crashed all the clarifying test batches at 1.004, at which point they were just a tad harsh, so they'll all need about a month to mellow before they can be subject to a fair taste test.

At this point, I'm leaning against using the pectic enzyme before fermentation again because it speeds up the fermentation. Even if it has no effect on taste, crashing the ferments at the right point is just easier to manage from a time perspective if the ferments are going a little slower. Of course, this is less of an issue if you are doing fewer batches or have a lagering tank to keep things slow. Also I could certainly see the advantage of PE if you can only get pasteurized juice that does not clear well on its own. The other reason I'm not real keen on pectic enzyme is that its hard to know before the ferment whether it is really needed or not. For example, with this round of test batches, even though I used pasteurized juice which I didnt think would clear, it turns out that I could have just let it clear on its own and it would have got just as clear on its own as it did with the PE.

On the other hand - the Super Kleer does seem to make a noticeable improvement in clarity over my existing process. And I like that it can be added after the crash (and only if needed). Its also a lot easier to work with. It is still TBD how it affects the taste though. If it doesnt effect the taste, then I might try using it to clear a few batches with unpasteurized juice and see how that goes.

Thanks for lots of great information as always Kevin Have you ever tried testing the juice for pectin before fermentation using the methylated spirits test? I have never used it myself but I have seen it mentioned many times for both wine and jam testing.

Cheers

HW

Nice write up on clairifiers. Just to pass on what I have found is that crab Apple juice clears really fast,,,, like before I add the yeast the next day after I sulphate it can be perfectly clear. I have had a few carboys that got agitated and refused to clear over the winter, come bottling day I know that the crabs in the mix will have it crystal clear when I open my first bottle 3 days later. I even intentionally rouse some yeast when bottling.

Any thoughts on why this is?

Have you ever tried testing the juice for pectin before fermentation using the methylated spirits test?

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No - I've never had much problem with the juice clearing quickly on its own before this season - except for a few times where I used applesause apples like Rome & Prima. Hopefully this season was an anomaly. Knowing the pectin content is only half the equation tho. The other part is knowing whether it will drop out on its own in the crash or not - and if not, now long it will need to sit afterwards to clear, which is hard to predict. I've never had a batch, even with high pectin apples, that didnt clear on its own by April, but I dont like to tie up a carboy for the entire cider season if I can help it.

what I have found is that crab Apple juice clears really fast,,,, Any thoughts on why this is?

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There must be something in the crabs that is binding with the pectin, but I dont know what it is. Sounds like a great clearing agent tho. I have a friend with a few crab trees and we added a couple of bushels to a batch that we hand pressed last October. The crabs made a real nice addition taste-wise and the juice fermented clear, but I'm not sure whether it was because of the crabs or because thats just what it usually does. Some raspberries will clear the juice as well, but not the ones you get in the store. Those taste good but take a while to clear. A friend of mine has a big ole patch and she gave me about a pound of berries last season. They were smaller than the ones you get in the store, but a lot of flavor. When I added those it cleared the juice in a few days.

Kevin, I tried the PM route. You're full. The LHBS guy suggested Côte des Blancs as a yeast that will result in a sweeter beverage than Montrachet. I tried one of each with EdWort's Apfelwein recipe with corn sugar. Should I expect that bland, buttery taste?

IMHO CdB is a poor cider yeast, but its somewhat juice dependent, so good luck.

JT-

Prior to this season, I had only tested CdB and Lalvin 71b-1122. I have always enjoyed the CdB more than the 71b, though I do ferment dry as opposed to crashing prior to completion of fermentation. I have found that it works well for a (bone) dry sparkling cider, leaving plenty of apple on the nose and a tart finish so maybe this is the difference as it is a wine yeast. To me, I feel that I finish with something that is more in the French style. I should temper my feedback with the comment that I had not experimented a lot with different yeasts prior to this year. Based on information gathered from this thread and some suggestions from Kevin, I did several batches this year using US-05 and Young's Cider Yeast. I found that even fermented to dry, the US-05 has more of an English cider taste, leaving more body and sweetness to the final product. I liked the subtle nose of the CdB batches better but was very pleased with the US-05 nonetheless. I have not yet tasted the Young's as I only bottled a couple of weeks ago but I think it is going to be really good. I do have a number of yeast experiments lined up but can't get any more juice until mid-March so I'll post my impressions at that point.

Kevin - Thanks again for all of the documentation around your work. It has been most helpful. I believe I posted earlier about my use of pectic enzyme for clearing post-fermentation. The batches I used it on did clear incredibly well within several days and I plan on adding it to all the batches pre-fermentation in the future just to be on the safe side. I have never been able to find any info citing effects on flavor but I may do some tests in the future. I would also consider using Super Kleer in the future and appreciate your experiential feedback. I foresee the possibility that some batches may not clear quickly even with the addition of pectic enzyme and this would be helpful in that case. Of course it could be left cloudy but I've found that most anything will clear over time (some of my meads have taken 1/2 a year to clear in secondary) and I don't want to end up with inches of sediment in the bottom of my bottles after they've been aging awhile. I would note that I haven't had many issues with clearing until this year either and I do use honey in every batch (2 lbs./5 gallons) so maybe this is helpful. I did have batches with added honey stay stubbornly cloudy after at least a month in secondary so it is definitely not a universal clarifier.

One last thing, I've been meaning to update on my posted comments associated with stinky (sulfury) fermentation and concerns that I had done something wrong. Based on Kevin's feedback to just let it be, a stinky batch with US-05 turned out nicely even though it still smelled at bottling. The stinkiest batch was fermented with CdB and this still has a sulfury smell even after it has been in the bottle for several months. Drinkable, but still stinky. I'm hoping it will dissipate over time but we shall see. I have found that damn near anything will taste much better after sitting in the bottle for 9-12 months, even if it was nasty at 1-2 (mead experience shows that most NEED at least 9-12). The ciders that are good early on get consumed sooner and those that need aging get it. Anyway, my point with posting is that when I was researching what action should be taken for a stinky batch, I could always find people posting concerns and asking for advice, but there was rarely follow-up to say "I did X as suggested and my cider turned out fine". Well, my experience has been mixed so far but like I said, everything has turned out OK (and I've taken no drastic measures).

I do believe I know why I was having issues. Huge rookie mistake: basically, I was not spending much time on aeration and I believe this stressed my yeast from the get go. Yeast need oxygen to thrive and don’t do well in the presence of large amounts of CO2. I have generally made starters and pitched at the right temperature. Sometimes I have added yeast nutrients (often based on sensory perception rather than as a rule). My stinkiest batches were given plenty of nutrient and large 1 liter starters but I didn't focus on proper aeration..doh! I think I was concerned with the idea that too much messing with the cider exposed it to more contamination risk but have found that contamination is a much smaller risk than improper fermentation management. Much of the info I have found during research on gotmead.com focuses on the benefits of proper aeration up to the 1/3 sugar break (to 1/2 in certain cases) so now I always aerate the heck out of my must before pitching yeast, primary ferment in buckets without an airlock (just a sanitized cloth rubber banded over the top) and aerate 1-2 times daily until the 1/3 sugar break. This in addition to rehydrating my yeast in GoFerm and adding Fermax yeast nutrient either as a rule or based on odor reduction needs has resulted in much cleaner and quicker fermentations and an end product that is ready to drink much more quickly. Anyways, I’m learning from my mistakes and wanted to provide others the opportunity as well. Don’t forget to aerate!

As far as aeration, I found 100% apple juice with only asorbic acid for $1.39/half gallon. That forced me to pour half the juice into the carboy and then mix sugar and shake the ever living s*** out of all but one or two half gallon jugs. I'm hoping that's sufficient aeration. I went off EdWort's recipe without reading much of that 700-some page thread. Didn't read about yeast nutrient or Rhino Farts, or any other yeasts besides seeing EC-1118 mentioned, until I got home with the supplies, made the cider, and then starting putzing around on the computer last night.

Whatever happens, happens. It is what it is at this point. Not much I can do now anyway, right?

I have always enjoyed the CdB more than the 71b, though I do ferment dry as opposed to crashing prior to completion of fermentation. I have found that it works well for a (bone) dry sparkling cider, leaving plenty of apple on the nose and a tart finish so maybe this is the difference as it is a wine yeast.

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The best yeast to use is juice dependent, so I wont hate on CdB. It just didnt like my juice. Its definitely worthwhile trying out different yeasts. Thanks for the update on your batches and the tip on using PE post fermentation. What type of juice are you using?

I did have batches with added honey stay stubbornly cloudy after at least a month in secondary so it is definitely not a universal clarifier.

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yeah, that was an exaggeration - I've had a few batches with honey that took a while to clear, but they always cleared faster then juice from the same pressing that didnt have the honey.

I was not spending much time on aeration and I believe this stressed my yeast from the get go.

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Maybe, although I dont spend any time on aeration and I'm pretty sure it hasnt been a problem. I suppose the juice is getting aerated to some extent at pressing time, not sure if thats enough to have an effect. If your temps are cool and steady and still getting sulfur it might be worth trying a few more yeasts.

My two batches going right now, one with CdB and one with Montrachet are both bubbling away, but the CdB is fermenting more vigorously and seemed to start sooner.

Neither stink of rhino farts. Montrachet actually had a small krausen to start, but it's lessened this morning.

The best yeast to use is juice dependent, so I wont hate on CdB. It just didnt like my juice. Its definitely worthwhile trying out different yeasts. Thanks for the update on your batches and the tip on using PE post fermentation. What type of juice are you using?

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The blend varies throughout the season based on what the orchard has in large quantities. They have told me that the best time to purchase their juice for cider making is early Oct. I have had a hard time getting the exact blend info from them (tart vs. sweet) as I think it's pretty proprietal but they noted that generally they are looking at a blend of Jonathon, Red/Yellow Delicious, and Chieftain with a number of other varietals thrown in based on what they've got in quantity. A different orchard that I'll be sourcing about 20 gallons from in March said they use at least 50% Jonathon. I have considered picking some crab apples locally, juicing, and blending in to the juice I purchase for added tannins but I would much prefer to find a press that adds crabs from the getgo.

yeah, that was an exaggeration - I've had a few batches with honey that took a while to clear, but they always cleared faster then juice from the same pressing that didnt have the honey.

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Either way, it's nice to hear that you've seen better clarification with added honey as I don't have much experience with making cider from just juice or juice with a blend of sugars other than honey. I plan on experimenting with this a bit more in March.

Maybe, although I dont spend any time on aeration and I'm pretty sure it hasnt been a problem. I suppose the juice is getting aerated to some extent at pressing time, not sure if thats enough to have an effect. If your temps are cool and steady and still getting sulfur it might be worth trying a few more yeasts.

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Well, dang it. I was pretty sure I had narrowed it down and have had better results since going with the new aeration schedule, though I have made a number of batches that fermented very cleanly with little aeration in the past. Oh well, back to the drawing board. I do plan on working with some different yeasts here shortly and we'll see if any particular yeasts produce more sulfur smells than others. I remember you noting that US-05 has generally fermented cleanly for you in the past and I did have issues with one batch made with US-05 this year, though the smell dissipated post-bottling and the cider now tastes great. My temps. run around mid-60's year round and I have been taking some temperature readings with a data logger in various locations around the house to get a better idea of temp. variances. I have been fermenting pretty much everything in my basement as this provides the lowest temps. with virtually no variance. I'd love to find a way to maintain temps. in the high 50's and may work on that this year.

SNO - I have noticed that cider batches with honey added are more likely to put out sulfur than just juice with nothing else added.

I've had good luck with S04 for cysers. IMHO it can go drier than US05 and Notty but still has the same flavor and it very rarely puts off any sulfur. Wyeast 3333 or 1010 goes great with orange blossom honey. Sometimes 1010 gets stinky when fermenting.

CvilleKevin said:

SNO - I have noticed that cider batches with honey added are more likely to put out sulfur than just juice with nothing else added.

I've had good luck with S04 for cysers. IMHO it can go drier than US05 and Notty but still has the same flavor and it very rarely puts off any sulfur. Wyeast 3333 or 1010 goes great with orange blossom honey. Sometimes 1010 gets stinky when fermenting.

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Just curious. Have you guys had ciders that kept sulfur long term? maybe it is because i bulk age all my ciders under airlock, but I never have had sulfur stink in my ciders, pending I let them age properly before bottling.

i.e. sulfur during ferment is somewhat of a non-issue for me. If it is there or not doesn't matter to me since the end product never has it.

The batch with Montrachet is a little stinky and the CdB just smells like "appley" fermentation. It's not a stench, but it's not a delicious smell either.

Have you guys had ciders that kept sulfur long term?

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No long term issues so far. A lot of the yeasts I've tried put of noticeable sulfur during the ferment. I generally avoid these, except for Wy1010, which works great with orange blossom honey and/or raspberries, despite the stank. Last year I had a batch with 1010 that was still a little stinky when I kegged it. I had to scrub with CO2 in the keg for a few days before it tasted good.

Sulfur during the ferment isnt a major problem, but I try to avoid it. When all of the cider yeast colonies are happy, the basement smells great. When any of them are stressed, not so much.

Have you guys had ciders that kept sulfur long term?

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Not so far, but I am suspicious of my second batch made with CdB this season. It's been in the bottle for about a month and no sign of dissipating. Maybe I should have bulk aged it awhile longer...CM, how long do you generally bulk age before bottling? Most of my ciders get 10-30 days in primary and a month in secondary.

Slownewone said:

Not so far, but I am suspicious of my second batch made with CdB this season. It's been in the bottle for about a month and no sign of dissipating. Maybe I should have bulk aged it awhile longer...CM, how long do you generally bulk age before bottling? Most of my ciders get 10-30 days in primary and a month in secondary.

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EdWort's recipe may be a but different, but that thread recommends 3 months in the primary and then bottle or keg and let that sit even longer. These two batches I have going are going to go in bottles after three months and then sit for between 4 and 5 more months.

OK, darn it! I think you guys are getting me hooked! I just bought another gallon of Whole Foods (WF) 365 Brand Apple Juice (comes in a glass 1-gallon jug) to try yet another yeast. My previous batches were:

• WLP720 with WF apple juice
• WLP720 with local cider (pasteurized, no preservatives)
• WLP720 with WF apple juice, cherry juice, and lemonade (based on a recipe for "Balanced Cider" from "Strong Waters" by Scott Mansfield, but I goofed up and put in twice the apple juice he called for)
• Lalvin 71B-1122 with WF apple juice
• Lalvin D47 with WF apple juice

I'd appreciate comments on what I plan to try:

1. Start the gallon of WF apple juice with S-04
2. Ferment to 1.012-1.008
3. Rack off half into a growler, put into fridge
4. Siphon remainder into a second growler (including lees) and let ferment completely
5. After a day or two, bottle the stuff from the fridge into 12oz bottles
6. Maybe add sugar to some of the bottles from the fridge stuff to try to bottle carbonate

Basically, I want to see if I can make a semi-sweet to sweet, carbonated, hard cider with the fridge stuff, but save half back for full fermentation to allow a comparison with my earlier batches.

Comments?

Comments?

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With most juices, when you put the first growler in the fridge, the S04 will drop to the bottom in a day or two. If you are careful not to siphon up any trub when you bottle, the cider will remain still - it wont carb. If you do suck up trub, then the yeast usually wont stop and will keep fermenting when the bottles warm up - unless you pasteurize the bottles (see sticky on pasteurization) or put them back in the fridge.

I'd advise trying not to let any yeast in the bottles, which means it will be still - but it will still taste good, and IMHO being able to make a sweet, stable, still cider is a pre-requisite for being able to make a really good bottle carbed one

If you want to make a semi-sweet bottle conditioned cider, you have a few options:

1) ferment to dryness then add non-fermentable sugar to taste, plus enough fermentable sugar to carbonate, then bottle. IMHO, it is arguable whether this is really cider. more like alcopop with some slight apple flavor. The last 5-10 points or so is where most of the complex apple sugars and a lot of the taste reside. A lot of people do this, but I have never tasted one that was any good. IMHO, it is like taking a nice beer wort, fermenting it down to nothing with distillers yeast and then backsweeting with malted milk malt. Sure you could do it, and its probably easier than matching the right yeast to the wort for the style you want, but it wont be as good as what you can easily buy in the store.

If you like it dry, then you can skip the non-fermentable sugar and let it age for several months. If you use good juice, some of the apple flavor will eventually come back and you will have something like a very dry sparkling white wine that tastes faintly of apples. 71B and D47 are both good for this style, although its a minority taste that likes a completely dry cider. Process-wise, making a sparking dry cider is easy, but getting a yeast and juice combination that tastes good when all the sugar is gone is tricky.

2) you can ferment the cider to a little sweeter than you want it to end up and bottle it (without crashing - unless you are using a lager yeast), let it carb for a few days using a bit of the remaining apple sugar and bottle pasteurize using the method outlined in the sticky on bottle pasteurization. Or if you are just doing some small batches and using ale yeast, you can stick the bottles in the fridge to stop the fermentation rather than pasteurizing (just make sure you leave them in the fridge until you drink them). IMHO, for a semi-sweet bottle conditioned cider, this is the best combination of good taste and relatively straightforward process for a new cider maker.

3) you can bottle carbonate using nitrogen reduction. This is what JK Scrumpy and a number of European cider makers do. Once you get the process down, its easier than pasteurizing, but nailing the process is tricky. You need both low nitrogen juice and a yeast that consumes a lot of nitrogen. I've had good results with Wyeast 3333 yeast, which I wrote up a few pages back, but I have a pretty consistent source of low nitrogen juice. So far I've done 6 batches this way - 3 one gallon experimental batches and 3 five gallon batches. I havent burst any bottles (knocks on wood), so I know it can be done, but not sure how well it would work with a different juice source.

If anyone wants to try the nitrogen reduction method, I would recommend starting with unpasteurized juice from an organic orchard if possible. I cant vouch for how commercial juice would work. It typically has a lot higher nitrogen content because commercial growers fertilize the heck out of their trees to pump up the juice yields, in which case Wy3333 might not work the best, so it would probably be worthwhile to try a few different wheat yeasts. Dont add nutrient or pectic enzyme. Before you bottle anything, make sure that you can cold crash a few batches consistently. What you are looking for in a yeast/juice combination, is that after the 2nd racking after the crash, when you bring it up to room temp, the ferment will start back up for a few days, and then stop after dropping a couple points. You want it to be completely flat after a couple months, but still sweet and not stinky. Ideally, it would only drop about 2 points (enough to carb, if it was in a bottle).

again - dont bottle anything until you have gone through the process a few times and are certain that you have a juice/yeast combo where the yeast will go a little bit after the crash, but only a little bit. Even then you should be prepared for the potential of burst bottles and sample often to make sure they are not getting over carbed. Once you have the process down its pretty easy to repeat, but nailing that juice/yeast combo is tricky. It took me a while to work out that I could do this with Wy3333 for my juice, and it may be that Wy3333 works well for other juice sources as well, but I suspect the best yeast to use is going to depend on the juice, so it may take a bit of trial and error.

IMHO, the easiest way to make a sweet sparking cider is to use an ale yeast like S04, Notty or Brupack, cold crash to eliminate the yeast and then keg carbonate. Very little effort or skill is required. It does require a keg setup, but they are relatively cheap if you get everything used. Plus its a lot easier to clean a keg than two cases of bottles.

Even though kegging is easier, there is something about bottle carbing in the traditional style that is kinda cool, so I'll probably keep doing this for a while.

Last night I took 3 bottle carbed batches to the monthly homebrew club meeting. Lots of great beers! The first bottle carbed cider I opened was from from last season. This batch picked up a small bit of a sour note over the summer, but also some more complex apple flavors and overall very good. Carb was moderate and its worth noting that these survived the hottest summer on record in my basement with no AC and no burst bottles. This one was the most popular. The second bottle was from this year, bottled in late October. A little sweeter tasting (same amount of sugar but less sour note), simpler and good carb after 4 months in the bottle. This one was my personal favorite. The third was bottled a little less than a month ago and was still a little green tasting and only lightly carbed, but still very drinkable. If it follows in the footsteps of the other two batches it should be really good in another month or two

The cider that I fermented w/Cdb was absolutely unpleasant to drink after bottle carbing. Now, after 5 mos., the flavor is coming around. The apple notes are coming out, and the flavor of nail polish and something "long" dead are almost completely gone. I think this will actually be a good cider in another month.

CvilleKevin said:

With most juices, when you put the first growler in the fridge, the S04 will drop to the bottom in a day or two. If you are careful not to siphon up any trub when you bottle, the cider will remain still - it wont carb. If you do suck up trub, then the yeast usually wont stop and will keep fermenting when the bottles warm up - unless you pasteurize the bottles (see sticky on pasteurization) or put them back in the fridge.

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Thinking back over this thread, I realized that you warned against trying to let the yeast bottle-carbonate a sweet cider. Then I read your most recent posting. Thank you for the warning in case I was foolish enough to try it.

I was going to write to check on how to cold crash, but you've also outlined the process above. IIRC, you recommended adding some additional sugar before fermenting, then cold crashing before the cider reaches 1.000. So, my new plan is:

• Start S-04 and add to gallon of juice
• Put half the juice into Growler #1, let ferment completely
• Put half the juice into Growler #2, add enough sugar to bring the OG to 1.060 (this juice is typically around 1.050 from the store)
• Ferment #2 to 1.012-1.008
• Put #2 into the fridge for two days
• Siphon off #2, not taking any trub
• Put airlock on #2, bring to room temperature, and monitor for bubbles for a few days
• If no bubbles in #2, let age for a month, then bottle
• If bubbles, put #2 back in the fridge for 2 more days, then siphon again, etc.

Does this sound right? I've never done cold-crashing. Thanks!

Does this sound right?

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yep - that will work. As far as the sg to crash it, go with your taste. 1.012-1.008 is where the majority of folks like it, but depending on the amount of acid in the juice and your taste, you might like it a little higher or lower. Also a sweet cider usually doent need much aging. It certainly wont hurt, but if things come out well, you might want to just drink that growler and make some more.

Well, I started the S-04 batch on Sunday and just put it in the fridge this morning. It was reading 1.012 (1.013 corrected). It had dropped from 1.016 yesterday at dinnertime and I was afraid that it would drop to 1.008 or lower if I let it go until this evening.

I just took a look at the spec sheet for Nottingham yeast (http://www.danstaryeast.com/products/nottingham-ale-yeast) and it says "High attenuation, reaching a final gravity near 1008 (2°P)".

Does this mean that the fermentation would finish at around 1.008 and I would not have to cold crash? (I am after a sweet/semi-sweet cider that still has some apple taste to it.)