no secondary really is great

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WhineinAlbany

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I have always used a secondary and decided this time around to only use a primary. Works great! I've never seen my batch so clear. I tried it on the AHS Texas blonde kit. Can't wait to taste it! Now I just need more primaries. I have 2 primaries (1-6.5 gal carboy and 1-6w gal carboy) and 2-5 gal carboys.
 
I only used my secondary once and it was on my first brew. Now seeing it sit there for so long it has made me want to brew a barleywine or start using to make cider or apfelwein since it gets such rave reviews and only requires at 5 gallon carboy for a 5 gallon batch.
 
So you are saying that it is clearer with only the primary compared to when you used a secondary? I guess I don't understand how that could be. Can someone explain?
 
Oddball said:
So you are saying that it is clearer with only the primary compared to when you used a secondary? I guess I don't understand how that could be. Can someone explain?

Yes, never been clearer and I even use whirlfloc in every batch
 
Leaving it in the primary will make a tighter yeast cake and when you transfer you are putting more things back into suspension that will then again need to settle. There is plenty more to it than that but here (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/) is some good info on why we used to be told it was necessary and why now we are being told otherwise.

Thanks for the clarification. The funny thing is I have the latest edition of both Charlie and John's books but have only read Charlie's all the way through and parts of John's.

But.... just to play devil's advocate, wouldn't you put the same amount of sediment back into suspension when transferring to the bottling bucket straight from the primary? Currently, I have been leaving my batches in the primary for about 3-4 weeks and then transferring to the secondary (apparently misinformed) for about a week or sometimes two before bottling. Every time I get a another layer of sediment that would have ended up in my bottles had I bottled then.
I guess I just need to try it out for comparison...
 
I just need to get the beer away from the cr@p on the sides and top of the primaries, as well as the BOTTOM. Seems to make sense to me. The secondaries are much cleaner and the beer exposed to much less carnage.
 
@RumRiverBrewer The "crap" on the sides and top of the primary is residue from krausening, and that "crap" on the bottom is the precious yeast. Moving the beer off the yeast cake to secondary does nothing really to improve the beer, sure it will clear up some and you will get some sediment on the bottom, but no huge taste or clarity benefit. The longer the beer sits on the primary yeast cake, the longer a healthy amount of yeast can eat up the sugars and clean up after themselves. There is a large thread on this, but I must say I was skeptical until I read it and heard Yooper and Revvy both chime in, I tried it for my first IPA and the beer was a lot clearer and better flavor too. Just my 2 cents.
 
The only time I use a secondary is if there's something I want to add or take away. For instance, the raspberries in my Matanuska Wildberry Ale only stay in the beer for a week, then I rack the beer into the secondary.
 
Can you still use the 5 gal carboys as primaries though? With a blowoff tube that is since there won't be much head space.

I'm in the same boat as you. I am thinking about going away from the secondary based on all of the comments on the board regarding better tasting beer in the primary bucket alone for 3-4 weeks. But I want to use my 5 gal carboy instead of letting it sit there! Planning to use it as a primary with a blowoff tube.
 
I have always used a secondary and decided this time around to only use a primary. Works great! I've never seen my batch so clear. I tried it on the AHS Texas blonde kit. Can't wait to taste it! Now I just need more primaries. I have 2 primaries (1-6.5 gal carboy and 1-6w gal carboy) and 2-5 gal carboys.

Question, did you cold crash the primary before bottling? I agree that only using a primary has made my beer much more clear as well. I've never cold crashed before (no temp control available) but I was thinking of waiting 3-4 weeks in the primary and then racking to the secondary and throwing that in my back room where I think it would stay around 50 degrees for a few days and then bottling. Anyone done this and seen good results?

Or would cold crashing in the primary give the same results?
 
T

But.... just to play devil's advocate, wouldn't you put the same amount of sediment back into suspension when transferring to the bottling bucket straight from the primary? Currently, I have been leaving my batches in the primary for about 3-4 weeks and then transferring to the secondary (apparently misinformed) for about a week or sometimes two before bottling. Every time I get a another layer of sediment that would have ended up in my bottles had I bottled then.
I guess I just need to try it out for comparison...

The point of a long primary is to AVOID the need for racking to secondary.

If you long primary you will compress the trub and get most of the beer back.

I get little if any sediment in my bottles, simply by opting for a long primary. This is my yeastcake for my Sri Lankin Stout that sat in primary for 5 weeks. Notice how tight the yeast cake is? None of that got racked over to my bottling bucket. And the beer is extremely clear.

150874_473504884066_620469066_5740814_2866677_n.jpg


That little bit of beer to the right is all of the 5 gallons that DIDN'T get vaccumed off the surface of the tight trub. Note how clear it is, there's little if any floaties in there.

When I put 5 gallons in my fermenter, I tend to get 5 gallons into bottles. The cake itself is like cement, it's about an inch thick and very, very dense, you can't just tilt your bucket and have it fall out. I had to use water pressure to get it to come out.

156676_473504924066_620469066_5740815_1970477_n.jpg


This is the last little bit of the same beer in the bottling bucket, this is the only sediment that made it though and that was done on purpose, when I rack I always make sure to rub the autosiphon across the bottom of the primary to make sure there's plenty of yeast in suspension to carb the beer, but my bottles are all crystal clear and have little sediment in them.

Half the time I forget to use moss, and you can't tell the difference in clarity.

I get the barest hint of sediment in my bottles....just enough for the yeast to have done the job of carbonating the beer.

And the only filtering my beer gets is through my kidneys. ;)
 
Can you still use the 5 gal carboys as primaries though? With a blowoff tube that is since there won't be much head space.

I'm in the same boat as you. I am thinking about going away from the secondary based on all of the comments on the board regarding better tasting beer in the primary bucket alone for 3-4 weeks. But I want to use my 5 gal carboy instead of letting it sit there! Planning to use it as a primary with a blowoff tube.

You will tend to get a lot of blowoff, or you could do 4 gallon batches. You could do some of Ed's Apfelwein which makes almost no krusen and homebrewtalk members have made more than 21,000 gallons so far.
 
I've racked to secondary once out of the several batches I've done now and definitely have yet to see any reason to do it as far as clarity is concerned. Like Revvy said, the yeast cake after 3 weeks in primary is very compact (at least with the dry yeast I've been using), and avoiding the transfer of sediment to the bottling bucket isn't super difficult. Any sediment you do rack will likely settle to the bottom of the bottling bucket anyway by the time you're actually bottling.
 
I read that post in another thread while looking around the site on the same topic. I guess my question is still the same though. If you used the primary for an extended period to get a solid cake and then transferred to the secondary to let it settle again, would it not reduce the sediment further? I was doing it at the advice of my LHBS, whose owner is experienced and I trust. I guess it all just goes back to me giving it a shot for comparison...
 
I read that post in another thread while looking around the site on the same topic. I guess my question is still the same though. If you used the primary for an extended period to get a solid cake and then transferred to the secondary to let it settle again, would it not reduce the sediment further? I was doing it at the advice of my LHBS, whose owner is experienced and I trust. I guess it all just goes back to me giving it a shot for comparison...

Leaving it in the primary for another week or two would have the exact same effect. You actually benefit from leaving it alone.... remember, the more surfaces your beer touches, the greater chance for infection and oxidation. I'm not a super-freak about sanitation like the dude from youtube who uses a SARS mask, but if you rack to secondary you do run a slight risk of picking something up or getting the wet-cardboard taste from oxidation.
 
You're right it does, as with most many things in this hobby, come down to you trying it yourself and doing it whatever way you feel more comfortable. the LHBS owner you speak of sounds like he has been brewing for ages and when you do something for so long you get very set in your ways. I have a brewer buddy who is 25+ years older than I am and when I told him I don't use a secondary he just looked at me like I was an idiot and then proceeded to try to compare our beers for clarity (sadly I forgot to use any finings in the boil and it was my first AG so I had some protein haze and he claimed his was clearer because he used secondary). I have linked him the same thread I linked earlier in this thread and some other info but simply because he has ALWAYS used a secondary he just cannot believe what I am trying to tell him. Not like it matters though, we all make delicious beer and we all do something a little differently.
 
H-ost said:
You're right it does, as with most many things in this hobby, come down to you trying it yourself and doing it whatever way you feel more comfortable. the LHBS owner you speak of sounds like he has been brewing for ages and when you do something for so long you get very set in your ways. I have a brewer buddy who is 25+ years older than I am and when I told him I don't use a secondary he just looked at me like I was an idiot and then proceeded to try to compare our beers for clarity (sadly I forgot to use any finings in the boil and it was my first AG so I had some protein haze and he claimed his was clearer because he used secondary). I have linked him the same thread I linked earlier in this thread and some other info but simply because he has ALWAYS used a secondary he just cannot believe what I am trying to tell him. Not like it matters though, we all make delicious beer and we all do something a little differently.

Why do people care so much about clarity anyways?
 
Why do people care so much about clarity anyways?

I think mostly for submitting your beer in a competition, they judge the clarity. I also like seeing clarity in my brew because it just looks better. Now there are plenty of beer styles where you're never going to get clarity, but for a blonde or pale ale it is nice to see it clean and clear!
 
I've been struggling with the whole primary/secondary thing for a while now, I read the other thread (well 11 pages or so) and was even more undecided. However, reading this one I'm going to go ahead and give it a shot now. Just the time I'll save on racking will be better spent drinking :)
 
the only time i use a secondary is when i'm not going to have time to bottle after the brew has set at least 30 days in the primary. then i will rack it off into a secondary. right now i have a pilsner sitting in the cooler at around 40 degrees. i figure since i got the wine cooler in i would use it for lagering and cold crashing my beers.

i have noticed the thick heavy yeast cake in the bottum of all my beers when they come out of the primary. they pilsner that is in the cooler now is very clear now and there is another yeast cake about half as thick as the one that was in the primary in the secondary.


i like to let mine sit in the primry for t least a month then bottle. the secondary is when i know it will be awhile before i can bottle now.
 
I've been using only a primary for the past 6 months and I can say my clarity is better and the taste has never been better. I will continue to do so.

I will emphatically argue against the "less sediment due to a compact yeast cake" argument however. The fact that my beer tastes better is reason enough for me to continue, but I have never gotten less beer out of a batch. My yeast cakes are not anywhere near compact. They are routinely stirred up easily with a simple racking cane and I'm getting about 4.5 gal out of every 5 gallon batch.

Perhaps I'm using fluffy flocculant yeast (us04, wyeast kolsch, etc) and don't cold crash, but even after 6 week primaries, I'm losing a ton of beer.

I'm not arguing against it as IMO this method produces a better beer - just less of it makes it's way into my kegs.
 
IffyG said:
I don't get it either, but I can tell you my roommate won't touch any of my beer until it drops clear...

Reason enough not to let it clear. More for you!
 
I have always used a secondary and decided this time around to only use a primary. Works great! I've never seen my batch so clear. I tried it on the AHS Texas blonde kit. Can't wait to taste it! Now I just need more primaries. I have 2 primaries (1-6.5 gal carboy and 1-6w gal carboy) and 2-5 gal carboys.

I know, right?

Just wait til you learn about that other thing. Amazing!
 
You're right it does, as with most many things in this hobby, come down to you trying it yourself and doing it whatever way you feel more comfortable. the LHBS owner you speak of sounds like he has been brewing for ages and when you do something for so long you get very set in your ways. I have a brewer buddy who is 25+ years older than I am and when I told him I don't use a secondary he just looked at me like I was an idiot and then proceeded to try to compare our beers for clarity (sadly I forgot to use any finings in the boil and it was my first AG so I had some protein haze and he claimed his was clearer because he used secondary). I have linked him the same thread I linked earlier in this thread and some other info but simply because he has ALWAYS used a secondary he just cannot believe what I am trying to tell him. Not like it matters though, we all make delicious beer and we all do something a little differently.

Well I am about to go on vacation for three weeks and with my primary full, I decided to brew another batch tonight to put in my carboy so they would both be ready to bottle when I get back. So really I gave myself no other choice but to try it out...
 
I've only dry hopped in my secondary. When dry hopping in the primary, how does it effect they yeast cake, especially concerning the reuse of my yeast?
 
So if a beer gets really warm during fermentation (the temp strip on my stout read 82F the other night in my 66F basement), would it be best to get that beer off of that yeast? Did the yeast get too warm and will create bad flavors? Would it be better to leave it on that yeast to give it time to clean up its own mess?
 
Xaphoeous said:
So if a beer gets really warm during fermentation (the temp strip on my stout read 82F the other night in my 66F basement), would it be best to get that beer off of that yeast? Did the yeast get too warm and will create bad flavors? Would it be better to leave it on that yeast to give it time to clean up its own mess?

If your basement truly was at 66F, I would be very surprised if the beer actually reached 82. Not out of the realm of possibility, but I'd be more likely to believe the strip wasn't being completely accurate.

That being said, anything remotely approaching 82 will have a huge effect on flavor. A warm ferment like that will cause fruity esters not desired in a stout. I would recommend putting the fomenter in a keg bucket with water and some frozen water bottles. It'll help regulate temp.

To me, getting it off the yeast, especially if it's still not done isn't s great solution. Just get the temp down.
 
I thought the same thing...temp strip must be wrong...but when i put my hands on the glass carboy it was VERY warm. And the thermometer sitting on the bench near the carboy said the air temp was 66.

It has since cooled quite a bit, now that the most vigorous part of fermentation is done, but should I still try to cool it? How cool should I make it? 55, 60, 65?
 
Xaphoeous said:
I thought the same thing...temp strip must be wrong...but when i put my hands on the glass carboy it was VERY warm. And the thermometer sitting on the bench near the carboy said the air temp was 66.

It has since cooled quite a bit, now that the most vigorous part of fermentation is done, but should I still try to cool it? How cool should I make it? 55, 60, 65?

Don't know the yeast strain, so this is an approximation, but mid- sixties will rarely do you wrong for an ale.

I guess the fermentation was more violent than expected. Air isn't a great way to regulate temp (unless it's a small area and tightly temp controlled) so I would strongly suggest investing $10 into a keg bucket and a few frozen water bottles for your next brew. Since the basement is already at a great fermentation temp, it won't take much effort to keep the water bath there as well.
 
I have dry hopped a beer in the primary, I have added strawberries to the primary and had good luck. I use a secondary for to beers. The first in Kolsch and the second is a blueberry wheat. All other beers are primary only and are very cleary and tastey.
 
snaps10 said:
I've only dry hopped in my secondary. When dry hopping in the primary, how does it effect they yeast cake, especially concerning the reuse of my yeast?

I have done it in primary using one of my old paint straining bags (for BIAB) cut up and tied into a little bundle, with enough room for them to fluff out if they are pellets. It worked well! I haven't saved my yeast cake but I bet it would b easier for you if the hops were packaged a bit in the wort and not free floating.
 
Oklahoma? Sorry to hear that. I rode through OK on my motorcycle once...I will avoid returning to that state at all costs. Unbearable heat and humidity, unreasonable tolls ($1.75 change only? really? and the bill changers at every booth were out of order?), and too much construction traffic.
 
Oklahoma? Sorry to hear that. I rode through OK on my motorcycle once...I will avoid returning to that state at all costs. Unbearable heat and humidity, unreasonable tolls ($1.75 change only? really? and the bill changers at every booth were out of order?), and too much construction traffic.

Keep on driving and don't look back. Or, just throw some pennies in there and call it good.

Oh and more on topic, I haven't ever secondaried. I've only brewed about 6 batches though. Currently, I'm drinking an Amarillo Blonde Ale that has cleared up nicely the last day or so. It just took a few weeks after bottling.
 
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