Electric vs. Natural Gas

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Waunabeer

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I've been brewing with NG for nearly a year now and have found it to work quite well. I've had no problems with smell or fumes in the house and appear to have it vented quite well. I have a dedicated brew room and am considering going electric in the future for the simple fact that it gets very hot in there this time of year (95-100F) using (2) Blichmann NG burners. I have a range vent and have two fans to circulate air, but it still is hot.

My questions are:
1.) Is electric more efficient?
2.) Is electric cheaper/more than NG?
3.) Will the room temperature be much lower than NG?
4.) Which one heats to a boil faster?

Any other helpful hints between the two would be appreciated. :mug:
 
Electric all the way.
1) More efficient as all of the power (heat) is placed directly in the water. No heat loss up the side of the kettle like a flame burner.
2) Electric is less expensive than NG. (Way cheaper than propane)
3) Room temp? Yes it will be cooler, again as the heat is added directly to the water and none of it is going up the side of the kettle.
4) Faster? That's a huge depends. It depends on the element size. With a burner it also depends on how big your burner is & how hard you drive it.

With electric you can hit your temperatures spot on without having to mess with it at all.
 
Thanks P-J. I've seen many of your posts on electric brewing and am considering it very much. I am good with basic wiring and think I can do it all, but just don't know where to start. I have one 15 gal. brew pot and one 12 gal. hlt now and don't know if I should convert them or start with new pots including adding a mash tun and another pump or what.

Anybody in the Madison, WI area that has an electric setup so I can see it first hand?
 
Electric all the way.
1) More efficient as all of the power (heat) is placed directly in the water. No heat loss up the side of the kettle like a flame burner.
2) Electric is less expensive than NG. (Way cheaper than propane)
3) Room temp? Yes it will be cooler, again as the heat is added directly to the water and none of it is going up the side of the kettle.
4) Faster? That's a huge depends. It depends on the element size. With a burner it also depends on how big your burner is & how hard you drive it.

With electric you can hit your temperatures spot on without having to mess with it at all.

Depending on costs in your area and time of year ($/kWhr), numbers I have run int he past show NG to be cheaper than electric (both significantly cheaper than propane). Yes, electric is more efficient in terms of % of the power delivered to the media, but it is significantly more expensive per BTU.

At least that is how I recall the outcome of my calculations.

As for the OP, you already have what sounds like a nice NG system. Have you considered just adding an element simply as an "assist" to speed up ramp-times? Once you have it boiling, NG should be sufficient. Electric is really nice for control-loop systems. but otherwise the cost adder might not buy you much, if any, real benefit.

Edit: and the converse of heating your room up this time of year is it must be a lot nicer there during the winter brew sessions.
 
Randar, thanks for the input. Those are some of my thoughts as well; is it worth changing over to electric or just find a better way to deal with the heat issues in the room?
 
Number 3 would be my major concern, other than you are using burners not rated to be in house, in house. Yes, you know what you are doing, but if anything goes wrong your insurance company better not know about the burners. They would love to deny a massive claim because of that one little issue.

Anyway, room temp would be kept down by going electric. All other factors would be based on system design and utility rates in your area.
 
Randar, thanks for the input. Those are some of my thoughts as well; is it worth changing over to electric or just find a better way to deal with the heat issues in the room?

Price out the electrical upgrades you'll have to make to your house, to your equipment, etc and then weigh it against the benefit you hope/expect to reap from the modification. I don't think one way is necessarily better or worse, but they both have start-up costs and you have already payed the start-up costs for the NG option.
 
And they wouldn't do the same for unlicensed electrical issues/failures/fires/liabilities?
That's a big depends. Depending on the area that you live in, you can pull a permit and do it yourself. You then have it inspected & you are good to go. The only thing that needs to be handled by an electrician (or DIY with a permit) is the wiring & install of the power outlet for the brewery. Everything beyond the outlet - no problem. IMHO.
 
That's a big depends. Depending on the area that you live in, you can pull a permit and do it yourself. You then have it inspected & you are good to go. The only thing that needs to be handled by an electrician (or DIY with a permit) is the wiring & install of the power outlet for the brewery. Everything beyond the outlet - no problem. IMHO.

MMB was simply saying he was concerned with insurance liabilities if using gas. I was simply pointing out the same risks for electric. His preference to brew outside (to avoid either scenario/risk) is nice and all, but that was not part of the OP's question or considerations.
 
Thanks for all the information. I'll probably stick with NG and find a better way to evacuate the heat during the summer months.

And I understand the concerns with fire and that is why I am very careful. The room is drywalled, which never gets hot from the burners and I have a CO2 detector in the room and an extinguisher on hand if needed.

I'll take the heat for the convenience of having everything I need right there and not have to worry about weather conditions outside to brew.
 
Dude go electric, you'll never regret it. I just brewed last week, it was 95f outside, and 74f in my brew room at full boil, it's awesome.

_
 
Dude go electric, you'll never regret it. I just brewed last week, it was 95f outside, and 74f in my brew room at full boil, it's awesome.

_

Oh thanks, now I may change my mind again.:p I would like to do electric someday, but I think the cost outweighs the need right now. A few months of brewing in a hot room is tolerable vs. spending $100's right now. In the winter I open a few windows adjacent to the brew room and it is down right cozy. :mug:
 
Oh thanks, now I may change my mind again.:p I would like to do electric someday, but I think the cost outweighs the need right now. A few months of brewing in a hot room is tolerable vs. spending $100's right now. In the winter I open a few windows adjacent to the brew room and it is down right cozy. :mug:

Plus you live in Wisconsin, it's only hot for a month out of the year. All things considered, i'd still go electric even if heat wasn't an issue, it's so glorious.

_
 
Plus you live in Wisconsin, it's only hot for a month out of the year. All things considered, i'd still go electric even if heat wasn't an issue, it's so glorious.

_

Exactly. Someday I'll go electric run off of my solar panels that I will put on the roof.:)
 
I've done stove top, propane, ng & electric.

Electric easily wins on indoor convenience as I hate being outside and fighting with the yellow jackets and other pests who like beer. As to costs, how much could it really amount to over a years time for a casual home brewer?

For pizza - outdoor NG, tinkered with to 900F can't be beat unless you go wood burning oven. A bit off topic but I love the pizza as much as the beer.
 
Thanks P-J. I've seen many of your posts on electric brewing and am considering it very much. I am good with basic wiring and think I can do it all, but just don't know where to start. I have one 15 gal. brew pot and one 12 gal. hlt now and don't know if I should convert them or start with new pots including adding a mash tun and another pump or what.
Your brew pot is good & the HLT is just fine as well. No need to throw money away. Going electric is not ALL that expensive. You already have the kettles and a pump. You do not really need a second pump & this all can be operated as a single level setup. If you want a separate mash tun, just go and buy a 10 gallon Rubbermaid drinking water cooler. As far as the expense on the PID and other controller items, you are looking at about $230 for the setup. This includes the PID, SSR, temperature probe and connectors, controller case, switches and a couple of heating elements. (Plus a little more for wire.)

It's not all that bad but something that only you can decide. If you do decide to have a go at it, I'd be glad to make a custom diagram for your setup.

P-J
 
Your brew pot is good & the HLT is just fine as well. No need to throw money away. Going electric is not ALL that expensive. You already have the kettles and a pump. You do not really need a second pump & this all can be operated as a single level setup. If you want a separate mash tun, just go and buy a 10 gallon Rubbermaid drinking water cooler. As far as the expense on the PID and other controller items, you are looking at about $230 for the setup. This includes the PID, SSR, temperature probe and connectors, controller case, switches and a couple of heating elements. (Plus a little more for wire.)

It's not all that bad but something that only you can decide. If you do decide to have a go at it, I'd be glad to make a custom diagram for your setup.

P-J
You're awesome. I downloaded your excel spreadsheet that you created for another member as well as your wiring schematic. Is this what is needed to make it happen?

I already have a 48qt. mash tun, but was thinking of making one out of a kettle with a false bottom so I could do more step mashes.
 
Basically - yes. For your setup there are things that you don't need at all.
Multifunction timer
Indicator Lights 125V
One of the switches would be change to a different type (close to the same cost)
One switch is eliminated
And a second 5500W element added. (plus a few incidentals)
I come up with $237.91 on the sheet.

I'm not sure but I think the diagram might be for a BIAB system. Yours would be a little different.
 
Your brew pot is good & the HLT is just fine as well. No need to throw money away. Going electric is not ALL that expensive. You already have the kettles and a pump. You do not really need a second pump & this all can be operated as a single level setup. If you want a separate mash tun, just go and buy a 10 gallon Rubbermaid drinking water cooler. As far as the expense on the PID and other controller items, you are looking at about $230 for the setup. This includes the PID, SSR, temperature probe and connectors, controller case, switches and a couple of heating elements. (Plus a little more for wire.)

It's not all that bad but something that only you can decide. If you do decide to have a go at it, I'd be glad to make a custom diagram for your setup.

P-J

If I can piggyback a bit, I have been drooling over electric as well for the last year. I felt a little lost in the electric section hearing people quote prices for all the high end electric systems they built, all talking about $1000+ price tags. Happy to hear your encouragement and lower price estimate!

I have a 1 tier, 3 keggle, 2 march pump, all SS + copper HERMS coil rig that I built this winter as a replacement for the old pot+rubbermaid HLT setup.

With my HERMS setup, maximum load would include running 2 pumps + one 5500W element while fly sparging (correct me if I'm wrong).

What would you recommend for the most economical but quality setup to accomplish this. What amperage total? Running 1 element at a time off one PID? Same $230 cost estimate?

Thanks PJ!
 
O'Haggerty,

Short answer - yes. You can run that rig from a dryer outlet (30A-240V). There is one other thing you will need and that is GFCI protection if you do not have it already. For that there is way to minimize the expense. Buy a SPA panel from HD. Cost? $49.00
 
Not to poop on PJ, but if you just want to buy something off the shelf, this is what I got.
http://www.highgravitybrew.com/prod...nite-Power-Control-w-4-wire-plug-269p3302.htm

He has cheaper options, but you can just get 1 element for the bk for $25 and your off to the races.

_
No sweat. Something to keep in mind with that unit. As I understand it, and I could be wrong, that unit is a controller to regulate the % power. I don't think it comes with a temp controller. If not, his cheapest one is about $100 that has to be added on.
 
No sweat. Something to keep in mind with that unit. As I understand it, and I could be wrong, that unit is a controller to regulate the % power. I don't think it comes with a temp controller. If not, his cheapest one is about $100 that has to be added on.

I don't know how it works, but it controls the boil very well, just leave it all the way up for controlling hlt. No temp controller, but rancos work well.

_
 
I don't know how it works, but it controls the boil very well, just leave it all the way up for controlling hlt. No temp controller, but rancos work well.

_
It's really just a 555 timer & a SSR in a box with a couple of switches and outlets. Walker described the components for his design of that type controller in a few threads on the forum.

Adding the Ranco jumps the price to $400 +/-

Oh well. I'll shut up now. Sorry.
 
It's really just a 555 timer & a SSR in a box with a couple of switches and outlets. Walker described the components for his design of that type controller in a few threads on the forum.

Adding the Ranco jumps the price to $400 +/-

Oh well. I'll shut up now. Sorry.

It looks like the box I used for my ebay aquarium controller. I'd gladly build my own if I knew what those parts inside the box were. It looks like there's a fan, a 220v recepticle (dryer style), a heat sink, a dial, etc.

pict0051_1091_detail.jpg
 
I am quickly losing patience with this "debate" and how guys will say that theirs is the only way to do it. Fact is, there is good and bad with all systems and it boils down to personal preferences. Electric is cheaper to run, yes. It is also MUCH more expensive to build. Electric will keep your room cooler and there will be no worries about CO poisoning, true enough. I personally LIKE to be outside when I brew, even in winter when the temp gets below zero. If you build an electric system, you are tethered to a wall outlet and never can go anywhere else to brew. I attend a few club-sponsored brew days, and like to be able load my rig onto a trailer and take it with me. No way can you do that with an electric setup. I am an electrician by trade and could build an electric system with my eyes closed, yet I choose not to for the reasons already given. But it is my choice and others will likely feel differently. The point is, everybody is different and to say "Go electric (or propane)- it is a no-brainer and if you don't you are *******", well that is just not right.
 
I am quickly losing patience with this "debate" and how guys will say that theirs is the only way to do it.

The point is, everybody is different and to say "Go electric (or propane)- it is a no-brainer and if you don't you are *******", well that is just not right.

Wow, nice going sunshine. There is none of what you accuse us of in this thread. Mind your business and take your dark cloud elsewhere.

I have a portable propane setup as well, I can brew wherever I want to.
_
 
I am quickly losing patience with this "debate" and how guys will say that theirs is the only way to do it. Fact is, there is good and bad with all systems and it boils down to personal preferences. Electric is cheaper to run, yes. It is also MUCH more expensive to build. Electric will keep your room cooler and there will be no worries about CO poisoning, true enough. I personally LIKE to be outside when I brew, even in winter when the temp gets below zero. If you build an electric system, you are tethered to a wall outlet and never can go anywhere else to brew. I attend a few club-sponsored brew days, and like to be able load my rig onto a trailer and take it with me. No way can you do that with an electric setup. I am an electrician by trade and could build an electric system with my eyes closed, yet I choose not to for the reasons already given. But it is my choice and others will likely feel differently. The point is, everybody is different and to say "Go electric (or propane)- it is a no-brainer and if you don't you are *******", well that is just not right.

Nobody is saying there is only one way to do it; only giving opinions as to what I was asking. I could run gas pipe outdoors as well, but I have no ambition to brew out there; my preference. I am just looking for the most efficient, yet safe and comfortable way to do things and also learn other ways to do it in the process. I love the convenience of brewing indoors and am just looking for an even better way of doing it. Every brewery tour I've been on has been indoors, but I don't have their budget obviously or I wouldn't be on here posting. :mug:
 
Electric all the way.

Dude go electric, you'll never regret it.

_

Wow, nice going sunshine. There is none of what you accuse us of in this thread. Mind your business and take your dark cloud elsewhere.


_

Coulda fooled me. Your own quote proves what I was getting at. Look, I didn't mean just this thread, and I didn't mean to cast a "dark cloud". I was just pointing out what I have been observing lately, and not just about electric brewing, but rather about the way a lot of guys have been saying that the way they do things is the only right way, and it gets to me after a while. Sorry if I offended.
 
I too get pissed if and when people try to shove their opinion down my throat without anything to back it up, but I didn't see that happening here. Only people inserting their beliefs based on their experiences.

By the way, where is Eldorado?
 
Good thing this thread hasn't derailed into a gas sucks, electric is over rated thread....

It comes down to the individual, the space to brew and the cash willing to shell out. Elec is way expensive to start out with compared to gas. Heating, it's relatively close. Electric is typically cheaper per use but takes a long time to recoup the initial startup. There's a thousand different ways to do it. It just depends on what you ultimately want.

I'm actually working on a half electric half gas hybrid. I don't have a dedicated space and only have 120 available. You gotta work with your surroundings, budget and what you want your system to be.

The Op seems to already have a nice gas setup, I might work more on an improved variable exhaust to keep cooler in summer and stay warm in winter. My .02.

-cheers
 
I like my electric brewery. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
Waunabeer, I am not too far from "The only Waunakee in the world". I have been using electric on my boil pot for a couple of years. I am just finising up a new control panel and electrifying my HLT and MLT. I hope to brew with it for the first time soon. I switched my boil pot from NG a couple of years ago.
I have never had any desire to brew away from home so the portability issue doesn't matter to me.
 
Gussymo, you are really close. Maybe when your system is finished I could come check it out. Seeing something in person is so much better than reading about it.
 
It comes down to the individual, the space to brew and the cash willing to shell out. Elec is way expensive to start out with compared to gas. Heating, it's relatively close. Electric is typically cheaper per use but takes a long time to recoup the initial startup. There's a thousand different ways to do it. It just depends on what you ultimately want.

I'm actually working on a half electric half gas hybrid. I don't have a dedicated space and only have 120 available. You gotta work with your surroundings, budget and what you want your system to be.

-cheers

Pretty much all I was trying to say, but you said it better. :)


By the way, where is Eldorado?


Why, you gonna come egg my house??? ;)
It is near Fondy. I don't hafta ask where Waunakee is, though. I used to work there in the early 90's.
 
No problem. Just bring those girls in your avatar. Kidding. My wife might not appreciate that. I hope to brew soon. Maybe this weekend. Keep in touch and I would be happy to show off my new brewery.
 
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