Creating an NA (Or...how I neutered my beer)

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BierMuncher

...My Junk is Ugly...
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I've threatened to do it and the time has come. I decided to sacrifice one half of my 10 gallon batch for the greater good of brewing knowledge.

I for one, would love the idea of having some non-alcoholic beer on tap that tasted good and was reminiscent of a favorite clone recipe.

I followed the basic concept put forth by BYO and we shall see the results in a few weeks:


We start with 10 perfectly good gallons of an Anchor Steam style Ale. 5.5% aclkeehol. Flip a coin to see which "child" looses.

Siphon into my brew pot.....gently...

NA_1.jpg

I can smell the goodness. It's not too late to turn back...

NA_2.jpg

On to the fire it goes...striving for a 175-179 temp range. Alcohol boils at 173.3F

NA_3.jpg

At 175, the "ghost" of the krausen is awakened. At this point, there is a strange whining and hissing from the bottom of the pot. Probably due to the evaporation of the alcohol under the pressure of the liquid. Or...could be the beer ghosts screaming in agony.

NA_4.jpg

Held the beer at 179 for 30 minutes. There was a definite medicinal smell in the brewshop. I had a box fan blowing fresh air in...just to keep any concentraion of vaporized alcohol from accumulating.

After a 20 minute session with the worrt chiller (sanitized in a more traditional fashion), it's back into a keg for some time to mellow and chill.

NA_5.jpg

I'll tap in a few weeks and compare to the non-neutered batch and report back.
 
That kinda brings a tear to my eye... but all in the name of science. Just wondering if it will work. Keep us posted.

So, if this works are you gonna call it Biermunchers Neutered Ale?
 
I have two questions:

1) Why would you want to ruin a perfectly good beer?

2) How are you going to be sure that you've gotten rid of the alcohol? I've read about this technique and also seen some criticisms of it because it doesn't really drive off the alcohol. Would a comparison of the gravities of the two batches tell us something about the alcohol content since alcohol is less dense than water? (okay that's a 3rd question).
 
You know,

you could use that wort chiller and some cold water to catch that alcohol as it comes off the boiler, and increase the ABV of some other beer. Or just put it in an oak barrel and age for 3 years.

Just don't tell the ATF.


[Disclamer: this was totally a joke. I do not condone the above actions, as it could wind up putting you in jail.]
 
BeerAg said:
You know,

you could use that wort chiller and some cold water to catch that alcohol as it comes off the boiler, and increase the ABV of some other beer. Or just put it in an oak barrel and age for 3 years.

Just don't tell the ATF.


[Disclamer: this was totally a joke. I do not condone the above actions, as it could wind up putting you in jail.]
I think I caught a slight buzz just whiffing up the fumes. (by whiffing of course, I mean snorting until I bout passed out...) :D
 
I'm curious whether you end up driving off any hop aroma with the low, quasi-boil. What I would be tempted to do is to toss some hops in there. Whole hops, in a bag, so you don't have to strain and aerate. Why not? Get some REALLY fresh flavor and aroma in there, like a hybrid between a late-hop addition and dry hopping.
 
the_bird said:
I'm curious whether you end up driving off any hop aroma with the low, quasi-boil. What I would be tempted to do is to toss some hops in there. Whole hops, in a bag, so you don't have to strain and aerate. Why not? Get some REALLY fresh flavor and aroma in there, like a hybrid between a late-hop addition and dry hopping.
I thought about that, but I wanted to compare this NA version to the other 5-gallon (unaltered) batch. I did get curious and give the hot sample a taste and it was really bitter. I must have woken up the bittering hops (NB).

I tasted the brew tonight after it chilled over night (not carb'd) and that bitterness has faded drastically, but wasn't gone.
 
When I was in grad school a prof and I bottled up a 55gal drum of PGA into quarts for the chemical storeroom.

It was a supergood high for about 30min! :drunk:

Seems like there will be some positive error on any SG reading because water does vaporize significantly at BP of ethanol.
 
I finally got around to sampling my NA beer I de-balled last week. It was one half of my 10-gallon batch of Anchor Steam Ale (Ale Yeast).

I'm now on my fourth 6-Oz sampler and am noticing just the slightest hint of a buzz. The other (un altered) 5-gallon batch is 5.5% and with me at 150 lbs, four glasses would have me asleep for the night by now...especially since I just got done mowing and haven't eaten anything since an early lunch.

The best part. It tastes fantastic. I bought a couple bottles of the real deal for a taste comparison and the commercial version is a bit dryer than mine, but I did mash at 156 to keep a bit maltier taste.

I wouldn't say this is completely NA, but I'd peg it no higher than 1.5 - 2%. I only held the kettle at 179 for 20 minutes. Another 15 minutes and I'm pretty sure I'd have driven off the remainder of the alcohol.

I'd say for my puposes, the experiment was a success. I lowered the ABV to miniscule levels and maintained a taste profile that was very close to the original commercial version.

All in, a very good (non) beer...in case you're thirsty for something before church.

Mines on the right.
Anchor_Pour.jpg
 
I think I may give this a try. I made a mild a while back and completely missed my SG (too low). As a result, I got a beer with about 2.9 ABV.

It is pretty tasty and I can put back several of them without a problem (well, not for the next month due to my liver). I might try this with a kolsch and see how it comes out.

Thanks!
 
Great job, BM! That's exactly what I'd do if I were in Drac's position. In fact one of my greatest fears is that the doc will tell me I have to quit drinking forever and then all the time and effort I put into building my brew equipment and techniques would be for naught. Your experiment gives me hope for a brighter future.
 
Thanks for reporting on this and running the experiment in the first place. I'll be interested in how it tastes in a month. SN isn't all that heavy on hop aroma, but I guess you could dry hop again if needed.
 
the_bird said:
Great job! Did the bitterness fade back to where it should have been? You perceive any loss in the hop flavor/character?

Yeah, there was none of that bitterness I detected at the high temps. It is now back to a malty, sweeter style with those Norther brewer hops at a nice subtle level. Like I said, very very close to the commercial.

orfy said:
I'd expect all hop aroma to disappear.

Aroma, yes. Flavor...still very present. This is why I picked a recipe with more flavor than aroma. Had this been an APA or IPA, I'd probably have dryhopped the keg.

My opinion is that this process works for the pils style ales with little hoppiness and the malty ales such as milds...and dare I suggest it, the Goblin?
 
This would probably work with wine, right? My wife's pregnant, and I think she'd appreciate a glass of very low ABV wine once in a while. I could probably do it with Edwort's apfelwein, but what about something I bought at the store (so I wouldn't have to wait two months for the apfelwein)?
 
Thanks so much for that experiment. I may have to try that with my dunkel/schwartzbier hybrid (a.k.a., "Football Beer"). I don't have to worry about any hop aroma there, and it really is something I could enjoy for hours on end.


TL
 
I did this last year for my dad, who's been sober for the last 20 years or so. Worked out okay, he loved the taste...but he said that not one of the 7 bottles carbonated...even though I added rehydrated yeast back to the bottles. I imagine it's much easier when kegging, but the only reason I have to do this is my dad, and he's asking for more, and I can't very well send him a keg. So maybe I'll rehyadrate my yeast a little better this time around. Not sure. I've got 5 gallons of porter that I'm gonna split in half....

Last time I did it, I put it in the oven to hold the temp easily. You could definitely tell that the alcohol was gone. Next time I might put hops in there while the alcohol is boiling away to counteract the hop loss.
 
Evan! said:
...but he said that not one of the 7 bottles carbonated...even though I added rehydrated yeast back to the bottles. ...So maybe I'll rehyadrate my yeast a little better this time around. Not sure. I've got 5 gallons of porter that I'm gonna split in half....

I think that you'd need to add the priming sugar and yeast to ge the reaction. I don't know what trace amounts of alcohol would be created by doing that though.

Kegging and force carbing does make it easier, and bottling a twleve pack from a keg is no big deal...
 
BierMuncher said:
I think that you'd need to add the priming sugar and yeast to ge the reaction. I don't know what trace amounts of alcohol would be created by doing that though.

Kegging and force carbing does make it easier, and bottling a twleve pack from a keg is no big deal...

Oh, I certainly did add the yeast along with the priming sugar last time. Might be easier this time because I now have muntons carb tabs.
 
Just so you know, as you heat it, it should level off at the boiling point for the ethanol. Even if you add more heat, as the ethanol evaporates, the temperature will not change. You should just be able to monitor temperature, and once it starts to climb above the boiling point for ethanol, you know it is theoretically all gone.
 
Beautifully done BM. Nice photos, too.

I can appreciate the inquisitive side getting the best of you and experimenting just for the sake of knowledge. Thanks for sharing your findings!

-Tripod
 
Sorry to dig up zombie thread, but this interests me. Especially for summer session beers where I tend to drink all day on the boat but don't want to get smashed. How would one go about carbing this in a bottle?
 
Great thread.. I started another..but figured I would go ahead and wake up this thread and kill the other. Better to keep all the info in one place. (BTW might want to make this a sticky.. it wasnt easy to find)

I wanted to do this partially for my dad, and partially for my liver (Darn Doctor)

Anyway, I am doing this with my MarZzen Lager ( Not quite an Oktoberfest, not quite a Belgian quad)
I am bottling this weekend.

In my experiment, I noticed something. As soon as my beer got to about 80 it started to evaporate. So I kept my temps @ 140 for 45 min, and then went to 180 for 30 and took two samples along the way. Remember we are getting Alcohol out of solution.

I think if you boil longer and lower you save more of the flavors and such and still burn off the alcohol. Reason is the bottom of the pan is well over 190 degrees. The overall solution though is not.. So if you stir regularly you should be able to get most of it out. Also there are factors of pressure and such to consider.

Anyway, when my Current MarZzen Ale is off the yeast, I will split into a few batchs and try the oven, stove (slow), and stove (fast and high temp) and then send samples out to be tested for ABV. May even try dry hops and no hops..

I really think there is a market for GOOD NA Craft Brews.. just which someone would make one.
 
Remember that while you're reducing the alcohol, there's actually a lot more that's left than you think. Alcohol likes water so much that it'll form an azeotrope, in which you can't change the % alcohol even by distilling (which is basically what you're doing here). You will reduce the ABV, but this wouldn't be an appropriate beer to give to somebody that's a recovering alcoholic or avoids alcohol for religious reasons.

This:
Just so you know, as you heat it, it should level off at the boiling point for the ethanol. Even if you add more heat, as the ethanol evaporates, the temperature will not change. You should just be able to monitor temperature, and once it starts to climb above the boiling point for ethanol, you know it is theoretically all gone.

is definitely not true. Beer is a mixture of alcohol, sugar, and water. Alcohol will lower the boiling point slightly, sugar will increase it slightly. My guess is it will still boil very close to 212 (depending on altitude of course). The total solution will absorb heat until it reaches the boiling temp of the mixture, and at that point any extra heat is lost in the latent heat of evaporation. It won't magically stop getting hotter just because one of the components in the mixture is more volatile than another.

Even after an hour of simmering 25% of the alcohol will still remain.

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index...doesnt-really-cook-out-of-food-in-most-cases/
http://homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blalcohol12.htm
http://www.ochef.com/165.htm
 
Hmm.. good to know. So while not a true NA.. should still get to negligible levels.

If you make a 5% beer - 25% left would be 1.25% low enough to be considered NA by the guidelines I found. Which read 1% is the NA limit.. BUT the caveat is they round doan and up to whole numbers.. so 1.49% qualifies as 1%. That said.. it looks as if it would be difficult to get a 8-10% beer into NA level.. but it could become a "Light" Alcohol Beer or some other category.

It does seem to imply though that to avoid extra ABV, I should finally bite the bullet and get a way to force carb my beer instead of using yeast to do it for me.

Anyway, I will be practicing with various methods, times and such on the next few batchs. I also want to see what happens to different styles. As maybe some are not affected as much as others. Lastly, how this affect hop character, and how much dry hopping can recover it. Be real interesting to have a NA IPA, NA Russian Imperial, NA Belgian Quad, etc..

So I will try these methods:

1) Heat to 180 hold for set time, then bring to full boil for 15 minutes or so

2) Simply heat to 180 and hold for a set time

3) Simmer at 120 and hold for a set time with a spike to 180 for a set time.

4) Simmer at 140 and hold for set time

5) Put in oven @ 180 for a set time

I will then send samples for lab testing..

This will tell me affects on:

Flavors in general

ABV in general

In flavor vs ABV

I am not sure which beer to start with.. I think I will start with my basic Belgian style due to the low hops anyway, It has a big flavor, very malty, yet light enough as well to be a good beer, it also should be easier to get some of the hops back in dry hoping. Also its what I like and what I make a lot of.

I am hoping that a long low simmer will do the trick.. because I expect the results will tell me the hotter you go to force out the alcohol, the more you will affect the flavor and loss of hops.
 
I'm interested in hearing the results as well.... I've wondered if you were to hop as you do the "reducing boil" if it would help with the flavor or body?
 
I'm interested in hearing the results as well.... I've wondered if you were to hop as you do the "reducing boil" if it would help with the flavor or body?

Good call.. I will look into that after the first round to see first how much the hops are affected by the different techniques. A few of the judges in our local home brew club will be doing the tasting.. as they are more "Calibrated" than I :)
 
^

You must have gotten a blood test recently and he gave you ALT/AST readings that show increased liver enzymes?

I cut back to 4 a day for a month and they went back to normal AST: 24 ALT: 23 Before that mine were AST: 91 ALT: 89 so I had to do some N/A beer, and this area sucks when it comes to N/A. Only choices here are O'Douls & Busch N/A.........

Shame some livers are like ours........I read Lemmy from the UK band Motorhead drinks a 5th of Jack Daniels per day and his liver is just as good as a new borns........lucky prick.......
 
Not there yet.. but I am sure I will be in the near future.

Got lots of testing to do.. starting with the sampling of the first test run from my braggot. The bragott came out very nice.. and I know the NA version is carbed.. So if this test run is promising the full test of the different techniques will happen in a week or two when my current beer is ready.
 
The beer will boil somewhere between the boiling point of water and alcohol, just go to the boiling point and let it rock, as the alcohol boils off the boiling point will go up until its almost all gone (close to boiling point of water). This is basically the same as distilling without capturing the alcohol that is evaporating, and that's a darn shame. Anyhow, you will also loose some water with the alcohol, so I would suggest back-adding some amount of filtered water, to taste, this will dilute the remaining alcohol even further.
 
Man I think this is awesome! I have a buddy that lives a life clean and sober. I love talking my hobby with him and he always said I should brew him a n/a beer. I just never knew how. You have motivated me to attempt it for the sakes of my poor buddy that does not get the head buzz that I so very much love! I call that support!
 
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