High gravity behavior

I'm fermenting my first real high gravity brew, a belgian strong dark ale. I brewed on 1-1-11. OG was 1.115. Today, on 1-20-11, I'm at 1.070.

Both carboys were rocking less than 24 hours after pitching with WLP500. I'm just wondering what sort of behavior is typical for brews of this gravity. While I'm RDWHAHB (The mild I made from the 2nd runnings is the homebrew I'm enjoying), should I be rocking these carboys or doing anything else to address a possible stuck fermentation?

What was your recipe/procedures?

How much yeast did you pitch? My last imperial stout (og 1.095) fermented to 1.025 whithin 5 days with s-o4. I pitched 75 ml of slurry in a 3 gallon batch. With high gravity beers it's all about yeast count/viability and well oxygenated (sp?) wort.

I would get some WY 1388 or 3787 on order. Direct pitching into 1.115 you have to have your shiat together, lots can go wrong yeast-wise.

we need to know how much yeast you pitched...

Each carboy has about 4-4 a little more than 4 gallons. I pitched about 6 fluid ounces of slurry in each.

The slurry was a combination of two harvests. Around 11/09 I harvested some WLP500 from a winter warmer(OG 1.078) I made. This harvest was in 2 mason jars. Half of this harvest was used to make a Belgian tripple (OG 1.085) earlier this year and harvested 12/10. The tripple started quickly and finished properly. bined the 11/09 and 12/10 harvests for the BDSA.

The BDSA I'm concerned with also got going within 24 hours.

man, 1-2 months seems like an awful long time to go with harvested slurry without making a starter before pitching, much less OVER A YEAR!!!

My bet is that your viable cell count dropped enough during storage that you were only pitching maybe .5-1 oz of viable healthy yeast even though you had 6 oz of slurry.

Any time I'm re-pitching slurry without making a starter, 1 week is the maximum amount of storage time from harvest to re-pitch. I think this is a pretty common rule of thumb in commercial settings as well.

Lone Oak Design provided the inspiration:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f71/belgian-dark-strong-ale-hbt-contest-winner-18e-141311/

Ingredient Name Amount
Belgian Pilsner 35 lbs, 8 oz
Amber Candi Sugar 2 lbs, 4 oz
Turbinado Sugar 2 lbs, 0 oz
Weyermann Cara Munich III ® 1 lbs, 5 oz
Aromatic 1 lbs, 0 oz
Special B 0 lbs, 11 oz
Weyermann Chocolate Rye 0 lbs, 6 oz
Magnum Pellets, GR 1.6 oz @ 90 mins
Hersbrucker, German Pellets 1.3 oz @ 15 mins
Hersbrucker, German Pellets 0.7 oz @ 2 mins
Brewer's Garden Paradise Seed 1 ea @ 2 mins

My mas was 32 ounces per pound and seemed to be around 154. I'm getting frustrated with my thermometer and may upgrade, but that doesn't help with this. My sparge water was hot, about 180. I fly sparge, sort of. I pitcher in hot water that pour over a spaghetti spoon to break the stream. I boiled for 2 hours and probably yielded about 9 gallons.

strat_thru_marshall said:

man, 1-2 months seems like an awful long time to go with harvested slurry without making a starter before pitching, much less OVER A YEAR!!!

My bet is that your viable cell count dropped enough during storage that you were only pitching maybe .5-1 oz of viable healthy yeast even though you had 6 oz of slurry.

Any time I'm re-pitching slurry without making a starter, 1 week is the maximum amount of storage time from harvest to re-pitch. I think this is a pretty common rule of thumb in commercial settings as well.

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The yeast that sat 10 or 11 months chewed right through the tripple. The yeast from the tripple was half my slurry and pitched after 1 week. The yeast I pitched did not seem troubled at all as it started right up. Pointing out weaknesses in what I did has value for future batches, but doesn't help with the current batch.

The current batch is my concern. What would be typical change in gravity for a beer at 1.115? How slowly would the FG be reached in ideal conditions (I'm guesing a bit longer than normal, but not sure)? Does it sound like stuck fermentation? If 1.070 after 3 weeks is indicative of stuck fermentation, what steps can I take to re-start?

I would re-pitch with a healthy starter of the same yeast.

A while back while making a big Belgian using my favorite WLP 575 I had thought it went from 1.098 to 1.012 in less than a week. Instead I was tired and using a new hydrometer and just read it wrong....it was really at 1.035. Found this out by tasting a sample after 4 weeks in the secondary and it was still very sweet (Great tasting though) and then re-testing it. Just made another huge starter of the same yeast and it finished down to 1.013 in a few more days. By accident, one of my best Belgians to date.

"What would be typical change in gravity for a beer at 1.115?"

Just depends on the yeast....and the temperature parameters affecting fermentation and attenuation of said yeast. I find that the temp of fermentation is more critical with Belgians than any other style. I like the WLP500 and it should reach 75-80%...or more if conditions are just right which would bring you to around 1.025.

tomwirsing said:

Pointing out weaknesses in what I did has value for future batches, but doesn't help with the current batch.

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Fair enough

tomwirsing said:

The current batch is my concern. What would be typical change in gravity for a beer at 1.115? How slowly would the FG be reached in ideal conditions (I'm guesing a bit longer than normal, but not sure)? Does it sound like stuck fermentation? If 1.070 after 3 weeks is indicative of stuck fermentation, what steps can I take to re-start?

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At 1.115 and using a Belgian yeast I would expect things to finish out between 1.030 and 1.023 (74-80% apparent attenuation). The FG should be reached in 7-10 days, given proper pitching rates and healthy yeast. Yes it sounds like stuck fermentation to me, and in my opinion your best bet to re-start is to pitch a large (2L or so), active (after 24-36 hours on the stirplate) starter made from at least two very fresh tubes of yeast. That SHOULD get things moving again. Just be sure to pitch the starter while it is at the height of activity, just after the growth phase is complete, so the yeast can get a "running start" at your beer.

Thnaks for all the help. I'm thinking I'll re-pitch with a big starter. If that doesn't get me where I need to be, I may add some amylase enzyme.

@Strat thorugh Marshall-Thanks for being agreeable regarding my comment. I often see people take offense on here when it may not have been intended, I'm glad you didn't.

tomwirsing said:

Thnaks for all the help. I'm thinking I'll re-pitch with a big starter. If that doesn't get me where I need to be, I may add some amylase enzyme.

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I wouldn't worry about amylase right now: that's when you've eleminated worn out yeast being a culprit and that your gravity is unfermentable sugars. My coffee oatmeal imperial stout that I have on tap now is a very high gravity beer that I had ferment at the usual rate (all of it attenuated within 7 days). With bigger beers, I think you do need to make sure you have all the basics: make sure you have a lot of aeration, adequate fermentation temp, and a big supply of healthy yeast (I used a 6L starter of fresh yeast with my stout). If these were really old yeast slurries from other high gravity beers, then that could be one issue. You can see if you can get more attenuation with what you have by stirring up whatever slurry you have now. I'd probably go ahead and pitch more yeast (a good sized starter from a fresh pack is a good idea) and keep the beer at the higher end of your temp range.

Your fresh yeast is going to want some oxygen, too, so make sure you push some clean air or O2 into your beer again. You probably need a liter of healthy starter that has been building for 24-36 hours. You should be OK at that point. Did you stay within the WL recommend temperature range?

Recently, I made a nice dark Belgian with WLP500 that went from 1.080 to 1.012 over 4 days, and the chimay strains from both WL and Wyeast don't have a stall out reputation. I bet this finishes well for you. Please let us know. I would be really cool if this proves to be an outstanding beer (with a hard-to-repeat recipe procedure!)

At 1.115 and using a Belgian yeast I would expect things to finish out between 1.030 and 1.023 (74-80% apparent attenuation). The FG should be reached in 7-10 days, given proper pitching rates and healthy yeast. Yes it sounds like stuck fermentation to me, and in my opinion your best bet to re-start is to pitch a large (2L or so), active (after 24-36 hours on the stirplate) starter made from at least two very fresh tubes of yeast. That SHOULD get things moving again. Just be sure to pitch the starter while it is at the height of activity, just after the growth phase is complete, so the yeast can get a "running start" at your beer.[/QUOTE]

Awesome feedback guys.

Regarding starters, how can you tell where they're at? I've made numerous starters. Usually in a 1.5 liter wine jug with the 1/2 cup of DME to pint of boiled and cooled water. I usually use 2-3 pints of water. I don't have a stir plate. I swirl manually as frequently as I can. I've never really seen any sort of noticeable activity. How do you know what the starter is doing?

tomwirsing said:

How do you know what the starter is doing?

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the first 18-36 hours is the yeast growth phase. This is when they are multiplying like crazy but not really doing much fermentation. The next 24-48 hours is fermentation. You should notice small bubbles in your starter during this time. It will look similar to how a beer looks after you pour it in a glass, a very thin layer of bubbles on top (or none, depends) with tiny bubbles coming up the sides of your vessel. When you see these tiny bubbles coming up the side of your vessel, its time to pitch!! It does not look like fermentation in a carboy, its on a MUCH smaller scale. Tiny bubbles coming out of solution is all you'll see.

It took me a few days. Busy, sick, insert lame excuse, blah, blah, blah....but I finaly got around to it. I have three 1.5 liter wine bottles, each with about a quart of 1.040 and 2/3 of a vial of WLP500. They're sitting in a 5 gallon bucket, in the path of, but not too close to the hot air register. That should keep it a bit warmer throught the night...Now that I think of it, i'll turn the thermostat up a bit before bed. It's chilly here in Cleveland. I figure the 5 gallon bucket should help regulate temperature to some small extent and provide some small protection from wayward rugrats. I'll be moving it to a safer position tomorrow.

If my understanding is correct, it won't be giving off CO2 for 18-36 hours. I'll be swirling frequently during that period to help provide oxygen. After that, the bucket could actually provide a nice CO2 blanket. The main reason for the bucket, though, is ease of moving.

I plan on pitching into my 9 gallons (split between two carboys) on Monday night...probably just shy of 48 hours. I'll keep you posted.

Rolling along nicely since I pitched on Monday night. The two carboys are under a blanket and I have a heating pad under there. My thermometer says 72 F.

I'll update when I check gravity.

Gravity checked on 2/26 after re-pitching on 1/31. I was disappointed to find things around 1.042. The sample tasted about right, except for being too sweet.

I'm back under a blanket with the heating pad maxed out. I'm swirling once or twice a day, but it's hard to get a deep swirl with a very full carboy.

Any suggestions for pulling this down below 1.030. I'd love to get down between 1.020 and 1.025?

YEAST STRAIN: 3711 | French Saison
Back to Yeast Strain List

A very versatile strain that produces Saison or farmhouse style biers as well as other Belgian style beers that are highly aromatic (estery), peppery, spicy and citrusy. This strain enhances the use of spices and aroma hops, and is extremely attenuative but leaves an unexpected silky and rich mouthfeel. This strain can also be used to re-start stuck fermentations or in high gravity beers.

Origin:
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 77-83%
Temperature Range: 65-77F 18-25C
Alcohol Tolerance: ABV 12%


Styles:
Belgian Blond Ale
Belgian Dark Strong Ale
Belgian Golden Strong Ale
Belgian Specialty Ale
Bière de Garde
Saison

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I just used this yeast on a Saison, but the info on the website says it is good for stuck fermentation. It is a different strain than you used but the way this stuff works I am thinking that it would do what you want it to do.This stuff really works hard.