Looking for PH Meter Suggestions

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Guess I'd prefer the LaMotte just on the basis that it appears more up to date in that the ATC is indeed automatic i.e. it has a temperature probe and can do the compensation without requiring a separate measurement and manual entry of the measured temperature by turning a knob. It should, therefore, be possible to measure each of the two buffers and the sample at different temperatures. I'm not saying you should do that - I always advocate trying to keep the three measurements at pretty close to the same temp.
 
I should point out, that I am not determined to pick between these two. They just happen to be a couple I found mentioned in the forum.
From what little I know, I agree the ATC would be a good feature.
 
It's hard to beat the MW101
I have the previous model SM101. Manual temp correction isn't that bad since you're sticking a thermometer in the sample while it cools anyway.
 
Though many readers here will be too young to remember there was a time when hi-fi was all the rage and much debate about who had the best amplifiers with the highest peak power capabilities, best balanced hum, minimum harmonic distortion, best channel separation... As components improved it became possible for anyone who employed a good engineer or 2 to design a superb amplifier (we are excluding those that think only vaccum tubes have "mellow" enough sound and the FETs produce "brittle" sound etc. from this discussion) and the performance was limited by the transducer i.e. the loud speakers. It's pretty much the same with pH meter's today. Most manufacturers have excellent electronics and the limitations are in the electrodes. Most electronics now have really high input impedance, low drift, low noise, accurate A/D converters, ATC, and are capable of automatic multi point calibration with automatic buffer recognition. And, beyond that, electrode technology has advanced in the last few years to the point where you don't have to spend $1000 for a good meter/electrode combination - though you certainly can if you really want too. So now the limitation on accuracy of a pH meter is really the buffers. Any meter with 0.5 mV rms noise or less and 0.5°C rms temperature accuracy or better can read pH to a little better than ± 0.02 when using technical buffers rated ± 0.02 as long as the reading is made about half way between the buffer pH's (and this is the case in mash, beer, wort etc.) and the electrode's isoelectric pH falls in the range 7±0.5 pH which most do (but I mention this because I have one that doesn't). The caveats concerning fresh buffers and proper calibration and measurement procedure are obviously attached.

There is no difference in the electronics of a pH meter for beer than for any other application. Brewing does impose some requirements on an electrode, however, and those mostly have to do with the ability of gums, proteins and sugars to plug the reference junction frit. In the past this was solved with sleeve junctions in which the frit is replaced by something like a glass stopper held in place with a spring. If the junction plugged it was "renewed" by pushing the "stopper" out of the "bottle" thus letting electrolyte flow over the ground glass flusing away the blocking material. But even this seems un-necessary with today's technology. I have found much less expensive fixed junction electrodes to serve for a bit over 2 years in brewing without problems. Point being that describing this meter as "for beer" may be more marketing than anything else.

All this aside Hana makes good gear - not the Rolls Royce of instrumentation perhaps but why pay for features you don't really need like the ability to record all the GLP data, attach conductivity, ISE, ORP and DO electrodes, interface to your computer over USB, write to a thumb drive etc.?
 
Do I need to pay for the "Solution Kit" as well as the PH Meter? That adds considerably to the cost, but if it is needed then I will plan on it as part of the cost.
Where do I find Thermofischer Scientific PH Meters?
 
As what you are really doing when measuring pH is comparing how an electrode responds in a sample to the way it responds in buffers it is essential that the buffers have the pH you think they have. This requires that they be fresh and that the meter be calibrated frequently using these fresh buffers. It is also important that the electrode be stored in the manufacturer's recommended storage medium (usually a saturated solution of potassium chloride). If the electrode is refillable, you will also need the fill solution. So yes, it's absolutely essential that you have the solution kit.

The Thermo line can be found at most lab supply houses such as Cole Parmer or VWR. Bring money.

http://vwrlabshop.com/thermo-orion/c/5034474/

They also make (or made) instruments which are branded by others. For example, Hach makes very good meters. I took one apart years ago and found the circuit boards were silkscreened "Orion" (bought by Thermo bought by Fischer....). No guarantee this is stil the case but Hach still sells good meters.
 
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I bought one of those just to check it out and it seems fine. I haven't done any one-to-one checks against a fancier meter but given the cost this unit seems like a bargin to me to the point where I don't see why people waste time and money on strips.
 
Have you considered this one: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000NI69P4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

And others, what do you think of that one? Seems like a pretty good meter for the homebrewer on a budget.

I've used this very model for ~1 yr now and am very pleased. I bought mine off ebay. It might have been a touch cheaper that way.

EDIT:
If you're interested, you could make this guy an offer

http://cgi.ebay.com/HANNA-HI-98127-...959?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439c3fd96f
 
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Reading through this thread, I see three different Hanna meters mentioned. The Ebay cited model has poor resolution, wouldn't buy it. The one specifically for beer is much to expensive. The PHep5 may be OK, but there are certainly other choices in the price range.

Eseasongear.com seems to have great prices on whatever model you want. They have the Milwaukee SM102 with ATC on clearance for $69.95. Seems like a great deal, so I bought one.

BTW, here's a link Kai's PH meter buying guide http://https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/buying-guide-ph-meter-127062/

Moose
 
Reading through this thread, I see three different Hanna meters mentioned. The Ebay cited model has poor resolution, wouldn't buy it. The one specifically for beer is much to expensive. The PHep5 may be OK, but there are certainly other choices in the price range.

Eseasonsgear.com seems to have great prices on whatever model you want. They have the Milwaukee SM102 with ATC on clearance for $69.95. Seems like a great deal, so I bought one.

BTW, here's a link Kai's PH meter buying guide http://https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/buying-guide-ph-meter-127062/

Moose
Kai mentions in that article that one of the reasons he likes the SM101 is because it has manual calibration (he elaborates on why he prefers manual to ATC in article). That SM102 apparently has ATC (link does not work for me).

I'm ready to buy one, just need a nudge in the right direction. Anybody have any comments on manual vs. ATC?
 
In manual calibration you turn analog potentiometers to set slope (gain) and offset of the amplifier. This is workable but archaic. Modern instruments do this mathematically in the microprocessor. Temperature compensation requires another gain adjustment and if it is manual the temperature must be measured and the gain tweaked for that control. I've never actually used such a meter but am not generally impressed by the accuracies attained by manual analog input. That's why digital took over and it's benefits are many. You can make robust pH measurements with buffers and sample all at different temperatures with ATC (though I recommend that you keep them close to one another). I'd have to think about whether it's possible to do that with analog ATC input.

Apparently Kai was troubled by the apparent failure of automatic buffer recognition. There is a reason why it fails sometimes. If, for example, you put an electrode into 4 buffer and it reads 85 mV (auto recognition would fail) that's telling you that your electrode is in rough shape. It would be technically possible to measure pH with that electrode but I wouldn't have much confidence in the result. The meters I'm buying these days will refuse to calibrate an electrode when it's slope drops to 90% or less of what it should be and, of course, one could argue this helps the manufacturer sell more electrodes but it also insures confidence in measurments.

With so many good automatic meters at unbelievable (in terms of 10 years ago) prices I don't see why anyone would go with anything but a digital implementation but "each to his own".
 
Kai mentions in that article that one of the reasons he likes the SM101 is because it has manual calibration (he elaborates on why he prefers manual to ATC in article). That SM102 apparently has ATC (link does not work for me).

I'm ready to buy one, just need a nudge in the right direction. Anybody have any comments on manual vs. ATC?

I think your confusing automatic CALIBRATION with Automatic Temperature COMPENSATION. Kai said that the Automatic Calibration failed and he prefers manual calibration. As far as ATC is concerned, Kai said he simply doesn't see the need for ATC since he only tests at the recommended temp. I can't see where having ATC would be a drawback.

I fixed the link to Eseasongear.com in my original post. BTW, I found them by clicking the "MW101" link posted by dstar26t, and my invoice shows "revenue sharing url" linked to this thread. Wonder if HBT or someone else benefits from such links...

Moose
 
I am ready to pull the trigger. Is the MW-102 (newer, faster model) 112.00 worth the price difference of the SM-102 (older model) 69.00.

Or OTOH should I be looking at some other? Maybe the Pehp-5.

It's tough when it is all new to me.
 
Also looking for a pH meter and the MW102 seems a good option for the price/accuracy/ATC combination deal.
Which of these solutions would be required with the 102 meter?
1-Milwaukee MA9004 pH 4.01 Buffer Solution, 230ml
2-Milwaukee MA9007 pH 7.01 Buffer Solution, 230ml
3-Milwaukee MA9010 pH 10.01 Buffer Solution, 230ml
4-Milwaukee MA9011 3.5M KCl Electrolyte Solution, 230ml
5-Milwaukee MA9015 Electrode Storage Solution, 230ml
6-Milwaukee MA9016 Electrode Cleaning Solution, 230ml

I guess numbers 1,2 and 5 are required, not sure if I would need 3,4 and 6

Also, I assume the temp measurements from this meter is much more accurate than regular thermometers used by homebrewers, so this pH meter can also be used to check/follow the mashing temp with huge accuracy?
 
Yes 1,2,5 are requirements. You may find 6 useful. You do not need 3 for brewing. Not sure what 4 is as 5 is typically a kcl solution as well. I assume it is of different strength and for a particular purpose.

I assume the temp probe is a thermocouple so it will be no more or less accurate the similar thermocouples (+- 1 F is typical). That may be more or less accurate than other devices you are using. I guess you could use it to check mash pH but don't go sticking the pH probe in there.
 
OK. I just received a reply from a dealer. The MW-102 is Celsius only. I'm a Fahrenheit only guy. Is this a deal breaker or do I need to bend a little on this? Is there something comparable that reads in *F?
 
It's no big deal. The cheap kitchen digital meat thermometers can switch between F and C and are accurate enough.
 
Not sure what 4 is as 5 is typically a kcl solution as well. I assume it is of different strength and for a particular purpose.

Yes, the 3.5N electrolyte is the fill solution i.e. it is this which trickles through the reference junction to complete the other side of the circuit. If your electrode is a "refillable" design you will need some of this. If it is a sealed design, you will not.

OTOH the storage solution is typically saturated KCl (which is only about 4M).

I assume the temp probe is a thermocouple so it will be no more or less accurate the similar thermocouples (+- 1 F is typical). That may be more or less accurate than other devices you are using. I guess you could use it to check mash pH but don't go sticking the pH probe in there.

It's probably an RTD because you need about 0.5 °C temperature accuracy in order to make ±0.02 pH buffers be the limiting factor in measured pH accuracy.
 
Got the Hanna pHep 5 yesterday. Bulb was dry. Brought it to work to calibrate it (we have buffer solutions 2, 4, 7, 8, 10, and 12). I put it in 7 buffer solution and left it there for ~4 hours (per mfr instructions). I first cal'd it with 7 and 4 buffer solutions and after cal it would read those solutions as 7.02 and 4.03 respectively. Tried again, same result. Then I stuck it in 10 buffer and it read 10.05. So I tried cal'ing it with 7 and 10 and that got 4.01 and 7.01 but still read the 10 buffer as 10.04.

Is this reasonable or should it be dead nuts in each solution? I'm sure it's close enough for shade-tree brew geekery but should it be closer?

FWIW RonRock, this Hanna meter can switch between C and F.
 
The buffers are at the labeled pH values only at 25°C. At other temperatures their pH's are slightly different. There should be a chart on the buffer package that tells you what the pH is at various temperatures. If you calibrate and then measure at 25° C you should get pretty darn close to what the buffer was labeled as long as your reading is between (or equal to) the buffers used for the calibration. IOW calibrating with 4 and 7 buffer should get you what the buffer label says if you go back and measure 4 and 7 buffer. But you can't expect that with 10 buffer and a 4 &* 7 cal,
 
Got the Hanna pHep 5 yesterday. Bulb was dry. Brought it to work to calibrate it (we have buffer solutions 2, 4, 7, 8, 10, and 12). I put it in 7 buffer solution and left it there for ~4 hours (per mfr instructions). I first cal'd it with 7 and 4 buffer solutions and after cal it would read those solutions as 7.02 and 4.03 respectively. Tried again, same result. Then I stuck it in 10 buffer and it read 10.05. So I tried cal'ing it with 7 and 10 and that got 4.01 and 7.01 but still read the 10 buffer as 10.04.

Is this reasonable or should it be dead nuts in each solution? I'm sure it's close enough for shade-tree brew geekery but should it be closer?

FWIW RonRock, this Hanna meter can switch between C and F.

I'm not sure what cal solutions you got but they are normally 7.01 and 4.01 not 7.00/4.00. Since the accuracy of this model is +/- 0.05, I think you are good.

So would you buy this one again or do you think it's a POS?
 
I'm not sure what cal solutions you got but they are normally 7.01 and 4.01 not 7.00/4.00. Since the accuracy of this model is +/- 0.05, I think you are good.

So would you buy this one again or do you think it's a POS?
The solutions I used were from Fischer Scientific, called 4.00 and 7.00, and the labels said 3.99-4.01 @ 25* C and 6.99-7.01 @ 25* C.

I've only measured some finished beers and first used it for a brewday just this past weekend. I have no baseline but it seemed to work fine and was easy enough to use. I did have one little issue: by the time I collected/chilled/measured the sample it had already been 15-20 minutes into the mash and that seemed a little late to be adjusting it (it was 5.62). So I added a little lactic acid to the sparge water and the pre-boil pH was 5.55, post-boil was 5.40. It was a Russian Imp Stout with 50% distilled water + a tiny bit of CaCl.
 
This is normal. "Technical" buffers usually are specified to ± 0.02 pH. It seems you bought buffers specified to ±0.01.

The NIST technical buffer for pH 4 has nominal pH 4.00762 (4.01) at 25°C and the 7 buffer pH 6.99992 (7.00) at the same temperature.
 
This is normal. "Technical" buffers usually are specified to ± 0.02 pH. It seems you bought buffers specified to ±0.01.

The NIST technical buffer for pH 4 has nominal pH 4.00762 (4.01) at 25°C and the 7 buffer pH 6.99992 (7.00) at the same temperature.
The buffers I'm using are buffers we have at work (half of my building is a Chemical Anaysis lab), so that may be why they are so tight.
 
Now that Christmas is past I'm ready to pull the trigger. Any other suggestions before I buy an MW-102? I'm still not sure if the lack of Fahrenheit temp reading is going to bother me.
 
So, dumb question. How do you store the probe in storage solution? Do you remove it from the meter after each use? Or put the solution in the cap?

I have a Hannah HI 98127.
 

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