Issue with doing half batches

Okay, first off, I've decided I want to do half batches (2.5gal), so don't bother trying to convince me otherwise. Maybe I will switch to full batches some day, but based on my living situation and the ease of use, I decided to use a Mr. Beer container for primary and two different carboys for secondaries (one for long-term hibernation like Belgians and one for normal beers).

Anyways, here is my dilemma. I'm only 3 batches into doing extract beers. The first one, the ratio of wort to water that was in the Mr. Beer was high so I started out with a pretty hot primary and I was worried, both because you're not supposed to have it that hot for the Mr. Beer containers as well as of course, I can kill yeast that way. So far so good with that, 3 weeks in and it looks like things are working okay with that beer, but it was close. My thinking of course is that I need to make my boil smaller.

Now the last two beers, I've been burning my wort. I assume because the amount of water is too low. The second time I switched to all DME, I made sure I stirred a ton, and I took it off the heat occasionally (based on suggestions on boards), but I still started to burn it about 40min into the boil, and so I just ended the boil early. I've been finding various posts concerning burning of wort, but I feel like part of my problem is the smaller batch and the small boil that I am cooking the wort in. I think I could stir it like crazy and still end up with burnt wort.

By burnt, I mean the entire thing begins to darken (more than I think is normal, though I admit I'm new) as well as I start smelling burnt malt, rather than just malt. The first one, I have moved to the secondary and it has a lot of extra trub that I decided not to carry over because I figured it was a result of the burnt wort, as well as it was recommended on posts here that talked about burnt wort. Overall, I think that beer might turn out okay or at least not ruined, but still, this isn't ideal. The current batch will probably be the same, hopefully slightly better because I didn't let it burn much.

It seems to me that here are my options, but let me know if I am forgetting something obvious.

1. My recipes are basically half of a full batch. Roughly 5 lbs of DME/LME, maybe 1 lbs of specialty grain, 1.5-3 oz of hops. Maybe I should be going even smaller, thus the amount of water in my boil will be okay?

2. Add half of the fermentables late-ish in the boil? Say 2.5 lbs of DME/LME at the beginning and the other 2.5 lbs in the last twenty minutes?

3. Just abbreviate the entire boil to 30min or 40min? While most people do a 60min boil, I always figure that is somewhat arbitrary. I could just amend everything around a 40min, or even 30min to be safe. I know there might be repercussions, but I'm not sure it would have a huge effect on my finished product.

4. Boil roughly the entire 2.5gal and do some kind of crash cool at the end?

I'd appreciate any advice or suggestions on which one of these are better or worse things to try, or if there is something altogether different that is the main issue. Let me know if you need more info. So far I don't think I've completely ruined any beers, but I'd like to find a solution for next time, or at least have some good ideas of things to try. Thanks.

5# of lme and 3 ounces of hops in a 2.5 gallon primary, is that correct?

Last time it was 3# lme, 2# dme, 3oz hops. This time all 5# was dme, 3oz hops. Both times .5-1# specialty grain.

Oh, and both are IPAs, so the hops should be appropriate.

What kind of boil kettle are you using and what kind of heat source? If you have a thin bottom pot on a electric stove top maybe you are getting hot spots.

Gas stove. I admit the pot is nothing special. I didn't list that as a possibility because I figured it could result in burnt wort on the bottom, but not the whole wort getting burnt. Could it make that much of a difference, just getting a better pot?

Make sure the extract is completely dissolved in the water before you bring it to boil. When I do it, I get the water hot, take it OFF the heat, mix in the extract (and take your time here to do it completely), and then put it back on the hear and bring it to boil.

Try stirring during the boil periodically, to make sure no extract is concentrating on the bottom of the pot.

I would wonder if maybe you are getting some burning on the bottom but because you are doing a lot of stirring it never actually chars the bottom but it still ends up being stirred into your wort. Have you tried turning the flame down once you hit boil. I know with my gas stove I can turn the flame down to about 3/4 once the boil starts.

Thanks guys, but I still don't think just mixing the wort more or better is it. I thought it was the case after the first burnt wort, so this time I stirred like crazy and I slowly brought it to a boil, I took it off the flame several times, I really was stirring almost the entire time. I think the dme was fully mixed in.

Yes, maybe it was still getting burnt at the bottom in small amounts and my mixing over time just resulted in a lot of charred malt. Hard to tell. Is the insinuation with that is that a better pot will make a difference?

I didn't have the heat that high. At periods of time I had it under boiling. I could have the first 15min at a boil and then the rest a bit under boil? That would require me to gauge my temp more than I have been... I'm still worried that won't solve it.

Any idea rough % of water to extract in a normal wort? I'd say mine is close to 75% extract. Any more water and it takes up a lot of my primary, thus the really hot primary issue.

That is a fairly high gravity beer, five pounds of extract for a half batch.

I would definitely add at least half of it near the end of the boil. How large is your pot? And maybe you do need a higher quality one.

With half batches, you either do a full boil, in which case you can't use top off water to cool, or you do a partial boil, which in your case is not a lot of water for the wort. Full boil is generally better, but you need to cool before pitching.

BTW, shortening the boil length would be fine but may mess up your bittering hop calculations. So you can still boil for 60 minutes, but as mentioned, add half or more of the extract late.

meirick said:

Any idea rough % of water to extract in a normal wort? I'd say mine is close to 75% extract. Any more water and it takes up a lot of my primary, thus the really hot primary issue.

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Also, if you mean in terms of volume you have 75% extract, 25% water, that's ridiculously thick. I'd guess it's more normal to have, say, 2 quarts of extract in 3 gallons of water.

I went to Northern Brewers site and picked an extract kit that was a high gravity recipe. In that kind of kit they are using 2.5 gallons of water at the boil and adding back distilled water at the end in order to bring the entire recipe up to five gallons.

The recipe I picked had 9 pounds of LME. So in terms of weight and volume they are using twice as much water as LME. Seems like you have a pretty thick wort on your hands.

I'm not familiar with the Mr. Beer primary, but you really should be giving your pot an ice bath to cool down the wort to 70 or so.

Thanks guys. My suspicions were correct. I think I need to decide if I'm going to try a full boil and cool it afterwards, which I was hoping to avoid, or try adding half the dme much later. I may get a better pot, but I don't think that will make a huge difference. And as for a shorter boil... I don't know, I still think I'll be burning some on every boil... plus I do a lot of IPAs, so hop schedules are important to me.

I guess I'll read up on crash cooling and late-addition extracts and see what I think.

My guess is that you are trying to use the Mr. Beer fermenter and at two gallons it is really limiting what you can do. Most recipes and/or kits you find will be for five gallons even if you are only doing a 2.5 gallon boils. I think you would have much better luck with a five gallon pot and some basic equipment that would allow for five gallon brews by topping off your wort with distilled water. I think you could get all of that plus an extract kit for under a $100.00. You might also find it useful to pick up a recipe program like Beersmith. This would allow you to play around with different volumes of water, hops, boil length, etc to predict your end result.

Like I said, I decided against full 5gal batches. I'm one person getting up and down a spiral staircase, I'm trying to limit the space I take up, etc etc. I know it would solve these problems, but right now I just want to solve the case of the small batch burning.

There is nothing wrong with doing small batches. I've done a million of them and it works fine.

Here are the main things I can think of regarding the "burning":

1. Start thinking about the relative amounts of extract and hops you are adding to your beers. There are several online tools for designing recipes that will give you style guidelines to follow. USE THEM. They will let you scale recipes to 2 or 2.5 gallons. 5 lbs of DME and 3oz of your average American hops in a 2 gallon batch is HUGE. You are talking about IIIIPA territory.

2. 5 lbs DME != 5 lbs LME. DME is higher gravity per pound.
3. If you are adding DME/LME and then dumping water on top of it, you are likely getting the extract stuck to the bottom of your pot. The easiest way to do DME in my opinion is to add it in small amounts at a time to COLD WATER while stirring in between, THEN heat it up. If you try adding it to hot water you will get crazy clumps that are very difficult to dissolve.
4. Even if you don't use cold water, when you add the extract, TURN OFF THE HEAT. And stir like crazy. Do NOT turn the heat back on until all extract is completely dissolved.
5. Your wort will naturally darken throughout a boil. If you are boiling over or getting crap on the sides of your pot, you are going to smell burning smells because wort is sticky and sweet and when it burns it smells bad.

I also brew in small batches, use a Mr Beer keg as a fermentor, and I agree with weirdboy's advice, especially point #1. I've never had an issue with wort burning because of a scaled-down recipe. There's likely something amiss in your procedure that you'll be able to fix for future brew sessions.

What water volume are you using for your boil?

With 5+ lbs of extract in a half-batch, you're attempting a pretty huge beer, you might need to step up to a full boil.

You don't want to shorten your boil, because it will dramatically affect your hop utilization. The solution to your problem lies somewhere else.

The water volume has varied some because I keep modifying. One issue is that I've always been steeping grain for half an hour, then just adding to that. In theory, I could be mixing the dme in separate cold water, then add that to the steeped hotter water. But yeah, normally the water is at least steeping temp when I add.

I'm still not so sure mixing is my problem though. I've been mixing the crap out of it.

As for using 5#, I've read plenty of threads that say just cutting a recipe in half isn't wildly innacurate... and I've found a ton of half-batch recipes that use 5# or more and they say it turns out fine. I'm not to the point where I'm calculating OG and all, but still, I don't think 5# should be the reason I'm burning it. Not if done right.

And I know boiling does darken the beer and result in a little bit of crispiness, but I know I'm going beyond that. My first batch was nothing like this, but I had a large boil and a very hot primary that time.

Maybe try adding the extract off the boil and stir stir stir. Not only can you burn your pot and wort, but it can also be very dangerous if enough heat and pressure build up under some sticky wort.

If you're brewing inside, you must observe strict safety though. Make sure that extract isn't pooling up and the bottom of the kettle or it could be very dangerous.

As for using 5#, I've read plenty of threads that say just cutting a recipe in half isn't wildly innacurate... and I've found a ton of half-batch recipes that use 5# or more and they say it turns out fine. I'm not to the point where I'm calculating OG and all, but still, I don't think 5# should be the reason I'm burning it. Not if done right.

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Where is this recipe you're making that uses 10 pounds of DME for a 5 gallon batch of IPA?

As for the 5# are you sure you are not reading an all-grain recipe for 5 gallons that says 10# pale malt? If you are substitute DME/LME one for one with pale malt then you are using WAY too much. I've never done a 5 gallon batch with more then 8# of LME and most of mine (around 5% ABV) use 5# of DME.

I can't comment on the rest of your post, because its very difficult to understand. What is this extract/water ratio you are talking about? Put simply, how much water are you boiling and how much are you topping off with?

On second thought, when you say you cut the recipe in half did you cut down the amount of water to steep in down from 2.5 gallons to 1.25gallons? That's likely not enough for a 60 minute boil, since a boil off rate can get up to 1-gallon of water lost per hour. Meaning at the end of your boil you have a very concentrated wort on your hands.

Admittedly, the 10# of dme/lme recipes were more along the lines of Imperial IPAs.

http://hopville.com/recipe/281864/imperial-ipa-recipes/five-ninjas-i2pa
http://hopville.com/recipe/257042/imperial-ipa-recipes/2010---tupelo-torpedo-ipa
http://hopville.com/recipe/332588/imperial-ipa-recipes/asylum

My point is that though it may be on the high side, it should be do-able.

When I was referring to % of water to extract, I was wanting to just get an idea. I started with steeping in about 2gal, but in the 1st batch that resulted in a large amount of hot wort and a hot primary. The last two batches I did much less (didn't measure) so of course that is too little. That is my point. I either steep and boil in too much water and it is all too hot for the primary or I do too little and I burn the wort. Could it be that there is that small of a window of how much water to boil with?

I admit, I haven't been sticking to one detailed recipe or directions, but taking bits and pieces of a lot of different sources and creating it myself. So far it hasn't gotten me in a ton of trouble... like I said, none of these batches seem like they will turn out too bad...

I've been reading up on ways to quickly cool the wort (without buying a chiller of some sort)...
http://www.brewfanatics.com/how-to-simple-and-effective-way-to-cool-wort/

That is probably the solution or the next thing I'll try, doing a full boil and cooling it quickly.

You absolutely should cool that wort quickly. You can't add yeast to wort while it's over 90F, and it is shocked/strained less when added to wort which sits at the temp you'll be fermenting at (say, room temp like 65F, dependent on the yeast strain). The longer the wort sits without that yeast starting to make ethanol, the more likely it is to develop an infection.

However, that's not answering your big problem. I've done half batches indoors when it's just too danged cold in the garage. I used to use a 16qt. cheapy stainless steel kettle on my gas stove. I had similar issues with burnt wort, but never had it in my thick 40qt. aluminum kettle on a Bayou burner at far higher BTU ratings. I switched to a thicker bottom 20qt. stainless kettle for indoors (and I still steep grains indoors while striking temp on the big kettle outside), and that problem went away. The thick bottom (three layers) helps to evenly spread the heat.

Also, I find LME to be far easier to stir in, but you have to make certain it's fresh. DME's much better for long-term storage.

I've done full boil with and without late additions of extract. I haven't really noticed a difference. YMMV.

Do you have a hydrometer, and are you taking readings before adding yeast? It's pretty important... It could at least tell us what your true amount of sugars are at the end of the boil. Hydrometers are cheap; get a new turkey baster, and a sample jar (like a fat test tube large enough to hold the hydrometer and the liquid), sanitize them, and pull a sample. Without that one simple tool, you're blindly throwing darts at the wall. And I'll admit, it makes our job easier when trying to help you.

Finally, I use Beer Alchemy on my Mac (like BeerSmith for Windows) to track my recipes and results. When I tell it to take a 5 gal batch down to 2.5, it's never given me a straight 50% split recipe.

Good luck!

EDIT: One more thing: start with lower gravity recipes until you get your process straightened out. I made the same mistake, and had crud Imperial recipes starting out. I was asked to try some simple brown ales and wheats, and those came out great. Practice with the training wheels, even if it should be doable to jump right in at the more difficult levels. Don't mean to sound condescending, but it made me a far better brewer.

meirick said:

Admittedly, the 10# of dme/lme recipes were more along the lines of Imperial IPAs...My point is that though it may be on the high side, it should be do-able.

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As other have mentioned, trying to make big, high-ABV beers as your first homebrew is making things much harder for you. I understand that this style is popular right now, and you may like it, but it is not the easiest beer to pull off well.

That is my point. I either steep and boil in too much water and it is all too hot for the primary or I do too little and I burn the wort. Could it be that there is that small of a window of how much water to boil with?

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Okay, I think we're getting somewhere. If you're hoping that you'll be able to take the hot wort at the end of the boil and directly pour it into the Mr Beer fermentor along with some cold water and be at pitching temperature, you're going to be disappointed.

Mr Beer recipe kits can do that because you pasteurize their HME/UME in only 1 quart of boiling water (and there is no hour-long wort boil at all). But you need way more water than that for any standard extract kit using steeping grains and pellet hops.

I've been reading up on ways to quickly cool the wort (without buying a chiller of some sort)...
http://www.brewfanatics.com/how-to-simple-and-effective-way-to-cool-wort/

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It can be even simpler. You can use a ice/cold water bath in your sink and cool down a pot with 1-2 gallons of hot wort in 20 minutes or less by exchanging the water in the sink a couple times.

On your next batch, do your steeping/boil with 2 gal of water, and I bet your burning problem will go away.

You don't need to boil all of the malt extract. I've made a lot of Mr Beer sized batches where I boil the hops in about 6-8 cups of water and a pound or so of LME. When the boil is at an end, I add the rest of the LME, stir and pour into the fermenter (with cold water in it).

With DME, you probably want to take it past the hot break. It's not technically necessary from a sanitation standpoint, but it gives you a clearer final product.

I regularly do half batches for the same reason, stupid small UK houses! Don't know if this will be of use but here is the technique and kit I normally use. I haven't had any problems with burning the wort and the wort itself doesn't seem particularly viscous during the boil.

I use an aluminium pot to do my boil on the kitchen stove (gas). The pot has a capacity of 15 litres / approx 4 US gallons. It's a decent quality Meyer commercial cookware pot but in my opinion its worth the money if you're going to be making a few brews throughout the year.

Basically I go for a final brew length of 13.5 litres / 3.55 US gallons. I steep my speciality grains in muslin bags in 6 litres / 1.57 US gallons of water at the correct temp for 30 mins. I then remove the grains, rinse them with around 1 litre of water which gives you a volume of 7 litres / 1.84 US gallons for boiling. I then add my DME (I always use DME as its hard to get fresh LME where I live) BEFORE I bring the wort to the boil. Stir well to ensure that the DME is dissolved. Then bring to the boil, make first hop addition and boil for 60 mins adding hops when the recipe requires you to do so. I tend to stand over the stove and stir the pot every few minutes to ensure nothing is sticking. It's quite theraputic and I just listen to the radio to keep my mind occupied while I'm standing there. After all, RDWHAHB!

After the boil I place the pot in a sink of cold water with the lid on to cool the wort. As a previous poster said you may need to change the water a few times to get a good heat exchanger effect. I then strain it into the fermenter and rinse the hops with a little hot water to get the sugars out of them. I've never been sure if I'm rinsing any break products into the fermenter doing this but it hasn't caused me any noticable problems to date! Then top up to the final brew length with cold water. Stir well to aerate, check temperature and if its ok pitch yeast and you're off!

Regarding amounts of DME I've recently made an English bitter and a Sierra Nevada pale ale knockoff which used around 1.75kg / 3.86 pounds of DME each for a 3.55 US gallon batch. Therefore, for an average strength brew you're boiling 3.86 pounds in 1.84 US gallons. I ended up with an original gravity of around 1.051 and a final gravity of around 1.014 giving an ABV of around 5% (maybe the bitter was a bit stronger than style but it tasted nice!!).

Hope this is useful and I'm not telling you stuff you already know. Good luck and enjoy your brewing!

Thanks all for the solid advice. I'm scoping out where to buy a larger and better pot and planning for a full boil next time. I may do a change up of when I add my extract, but the full boil and new pot really should solve the burning problem.

And I will probably modify my recipes a little. To some degree, I want to see how the current ones work out though before I start modifying significantly. It will probably mean less fermentables, but we'll see.

Something I liked to do when cooling a 2.5 gal boil was to use cold water to do an initial cool. Then I replace that water with new cool water and add ice. If you use the ice at the beginning it will melt the ice really quick and you'll wind up needing more to get to pitching temps. Not many people mention this little trick and my first batch I did with an ice bath I ran out of ice with my wort still over 150 degrees. If you look you might be able to find a smaller sized wort chiller for a reasonable price, they're a great investment because they make cooling a breeze.

vicratlhead51 said:

Something I liked to do when cooling a 2.5 gal boil was to use cold water to do an initial cool. Then I replace that water with new cool water and add ice. If you use the ice at the beginning it will melt the ice really quick and you'll wind up needing more to get to pitching temps. Not many people mention this little trick and my first batch I did with an ice bath I ran out of ice with my wort still over 150 degrees. If you look you might be able to find a smaller sized wort chiller for a reasonable price, they're a great investment because they make cooling a breeze.

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I agree with the above. Also, use nature!!! It snows in IL right? Well it sure as heck does in central NY where I live. I have been using the snow and the temps outside to my avantage all winter. With a smaller pot, I had a bus pan of water and then put the pot in the bus pan. Get a shovel and keep putting snow in the water and stirring the DME (the snow melts and makes ice water and chills). I stir constantly for ten minutes and add snow all the while - I could get the wort chilled in about 10-15 minutes (4-4.5 ish Gallons). Fill your chilling water buckets and stick them outside when you brew - free refridgeration!

I just upgraded my pot to a 60 quart and did a 6 gallon batch last night - well the pot was too big for the bus pan, so I stuck it in a snow bank off my porch and stirred constantly (kept pushing the snow up against the pot sides) - I was at 76F in 9 minutes. It was also friggin' freezing out there so that helped too.

Now when summer comes I will have to think about a chiller...

Just because you don't want to go big doesn't mean you shouldn't be creative. Some of the brewing methods are there for a reason though, a good water volume on your boil is important.

I made a small chiller for half batches out of 10 ft of copper tubing for under fifteen bucks and it works great, saved me money when I first started cuz I kept having to buy ice. I still use my small chiller for making starters with

FlatcapBrew said:

I made a small chiller for half batches out of 10 ft of copper tubing for under fifteen bucks and it works great, saved me money when I first started cuz I kept having to buy ice. I still use my small chiller for making starters with

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+1 there. It's pretty cheap and easy to make a small IC so you can cool full boils. There are fittings readily available to let you connect it to the kitchen sink.

When you move up to big batches this baby IC can be recycled into a pre-chiller for a larger IC.