I've been doing some reading on first wort and mash hopping. Supposedly you can get flavors different from traditional boil additions. I'm intrigued as well as thinking of the practical side possibly reducing the kettle load of hops on IPA's and such. Anyone out there use hops in either your mash or runoff? If so, can you explain why a flavor that would boil away in a kettle addition would remain in first wort that is about to be boiled anyway? It's kinda blowing my mind!!!
First wort hopping
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I do a lot of first wort hopping, though never in the actual mash.
There's no single explanation for the difference, other than to say that the composition of hops is very complex and it's no surprise that spending an hour at a hot but non-boiling temp would produce a different final product. One mechanism would be that some volatiles that would blow off in a strong boil end up converting to more stable compounds if left to rest at ~150ºF.
There's no single explanation for the difference, other than to say that the composition of hops is very complex and it's no surprise that spending an hour at a hot but non-boiling temp would produce a different final product. One mechanism would be that some volatiles that would blow off in a strong boil end up converting to more stable compounds if left to rest at ~150ºF.
My experience with hopping the mash is don't do it. The hops can interact with the mash chemistry in weird ways and I ended up with some crazy harsh flavors. First wort hopping, on the other hand, is awesome. The reason that more flavor is retained is that the alpha acids (and various other compounds) have to be isomerized (change shape) in order to dissolve in the wort. At the lower temperature of the runoff, the flavor compounds have plenty of time to isomerize and dissolve before the boil. Once they are dissolved, there's no more risk of boiling them away.
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Demus
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Awesome. Would running off into a colander with a few ounces of hops do the trick? How do you do it? Should I account for these hops as bittering or consider them flavor hops as far as IBU considerations? Can you share a few recipe examples of first wort hop successes?
I just throw the hops into the kettle during the sparge and let them hang out for the full boil. Because of that, my IBU's are similar (just a touch higher) to using them as bittering hops for the full boil time. I just did a fwh ESB:
10 lbs Marris Otter mashed @148 for 1 hour
1 oz. Challenger FWH
1 oz. EKG @20
1 oz. EKG @5
1 oz. EKG Dry Hop
Ferment with Wyeast 1968.
If you're wondering about the absence of crystal malt in an ESB recipe, that's a whole other story. (Let's just say I've been experimenting with getting all my color and flavor from kettle caramelization.) I'm drinking it right now, and the hop flavor is fantastic!
10 lbs Marris Otter mashed @148 for 1 hour
1 oz. Challenger FWH
1 oz. EKG @20
1 oz. EKG @5
1 oz. EKG Dry Hop
Ferment with Wyeast 1968.
If you're wondering about the absence of crystal malt in an ESB recipe, that's a whole other story. (Let's just say I've been experimenting with getting all my color and flavor from kettle caramelization.) I'm drinking it right now, and the hop flavor is fantastic!
I ran across a post about mash hopping last month so I figured I'd give it a shot with an IPA I was brewing. I have to say with this specific brew I am happy with the results. I only used 1 ounce in the mash but the aroma is actually pretty nice with no noticeable harshness. Now I never did a control batch without the mash hop so I can't say for sure how effective it was, but it seems like something I would explore a little more. There seems to be a lot argument on either side on the discussion though. Here's another post with a little more information. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/mash-hopping-4182/
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Demus
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Ok now you have me excited! If I'm understanding right, the full boil hops normally don't contribute much flavor. But first wort hops pull flavor compounds and add their bitterness if you leave them in for the boil. Why wouldn't every all grain brewer use this technique when they're doing a hop forward style?? I know I'm going to try it...
I would think that everyone who knows about it would, for hop-forward styles, as you said. I fwh all my ESBs and IPAs, and sometimes even fwh and forget about late additions for less hoppy styles. I made a really nice Kolsch with tettnang that way once.
The bitterness you get from FWH is very different than what you get from a 60 min. addition. It's much smoother and softer. I always use a 60 min. addition in addition to the FWH. I consider the FWH a flavor addition.
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Demus
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Thanks. Do you leave the FWH in for the boil or discard them?
You leave them in!
Here's the thing to consider. I absolutely respect Denny and I would never disagree with him.
Except in this! My taste is that FWH does contribute bitterness, and I use it instead of 60 minute bittering.
But there are so many other considerations. One is that I found that I dislike high sulfate water, even for IPAs and APAs, so I like that "softer" bitterness. Perhaps that is why I think FWH is a great sub for bittering hops, while Denny does both FWH and bittering hops.
My suggestion is to try it both ways, and make your decision based on your taste buds.
I like lots of late hops in ambers, IPAs, and APAs, with just enough bitterness to balance. Maybe that's why I love FWH instead of bittering hops.
I rarely do mash hopping now, but I used to back when hops were cheap. I never did a head-to-head comparison, but don't recall a significant difference.
In my experience, I'm with yooper on this. I've been using FWH in place of a 60 min addition on many brews lately, and I find that it contributes bitterness. I haven't really noticed any flavor contributions from it, but haven't really done any side by side comparisons or anything. I just use it to smooth the bitterness on some hops that give me a "harsher" bittering.
I definitely get some bitterness, but it never seems to me like a full 60 minute addition. I tend to stop liking beers once the BU:GU gets north of ~0.8 or so, though with FWH'd beers I'm still happy closer to 1.0 (if calculated like a 60min addition).
It's definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison in any case, but I treat my FWH like 20 minute addition and it works out nicely for me. That's about 60% of the calculated IBUs of a 60min addition.
It's definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison in any case, but I treat my FWH like 20 minute addition and it works out nicely for me. That's about 60% of the calculated IBUs of a 60min addition.
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Demus
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Just to be sure I'm understanding here, despite leaving FWH's in for the boil, they do not contribute a full boil bittering charge? I get the flavor extraction part, longer contact time at sub-boiling temperatures, but I'm having a tough time understanding what happens to them in the boil. Isn't all the alpha acid still present after use as FWH?
Yes, it is. But, the perception of bitterness (like all taste) is a very complicated thing. If you get the thing tested by a lab, I'm sure you'll see IBU levels appropriate to a full sixty minute boil. What you actually perceive might be something else.
The fact that two of the more accomplished brewers on here, Denny and Yooper, describe very different perceptions of FWH bitterness is a pretty clear indication that there's no simple answer to this.
Bamsdealer
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I've been doing it for all my pales, ipas, and ambers. They've been plenty bitter, but they generally get a nice dose of hops at various stages of the boil. I just brewed a German lager with 2 oz of hellertau FWH and nothing else. Curious to see what I get in the way of bitterness/flavor. I brewed the same beer earlier this year with just a bittering addition so I'm anxious to see how it turns out.
My first FWH beer(IPA) is 1 month in bottles at the moment. Tasted first bottle a few nights ago and its still slightly green, but very promising, although it does taste like I've undershot the bittering-cant say if this is because of the lower 'perceived' bitterness with FWH?. Will try it again in a week or so. Heres the thread I started looking for advice on FWH
http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1798&hilit=considering+fwh
See post #3 by PistolPatch where he explains how to convert to FWH from a normal recipe.
Although from what I've read(and am still reading) people tend to FWH differently. I'd love to undertsand it better myself as it makes little sense to me to rob for FWH only from late additions
http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1798&hilit=considering+fwh
See post #3 by PistolPatch where he explains how to convert to FWH from a normal recipe.
Although from what I've read(and am still reading) people tend to FWH differently. I'd love to undertsand it better myself as it makes little sense to me to rob for FWH only from late additions
Hermit
fuddle
Maybe if you are a non hop lover like myself you would notice the flavor more.
Seriously, the idea that 'any bittering hop' will work because it doesn't add flavor might work for some. It could be genetic. My son gave me a Leffe blond because it was too bitter for him. I could taste the hops but didn't find it bitter.
I do mostly Belgians, English Pale Ale, Kolsch, Alt, and lagers. I use the 60 min hop amount to FWH. I always FWH and treat it as my 60 min. bittering addition.
You are free to do what you want but traditional First Wort Hopping involves the flavoring or aroma hop, not the bittering hop.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try whatever you like, experimentation is good.
But it's confusing to see a term being used in an imprecise way.
maybe "FWH - with bittering hops" as opposed to "First Wort Hopping"
This is an excerpt from Palmers "How to Brew".
>>Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. This FWH addition therefore should be taken from the hops intended for finishing additions.
I'm not saying you shouldn't try whatever you like, experimentation is good.
But it's confusing to see a term being used in an imprecise way.
maybe "FWH - with bittering hops" as opposed to "First Wort Hopping"
This is an excerpt from Palmers "How to Brew".
>>Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. This FWH addition therefore should be taken from the hops intended for finishing additions.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that FWH don't contribute bitterness. I've had beers analyzed that were all FWH and the same amount at 60 as the only hop additions. The FWH beers actually measured about 10% more IBU, but in a blind triangle tasting they were generally perceived to taste less bitter. If I'm making an AP/AIPA, I want a big slap of hop bitterness. Yooper saying that she doesn't like high sulfate beers is a clue to the fact that she likes a smoother, mellower bitterness. It's all about your own tastes, and since it's your beer you can make it taste like whatever you like. For me, I've found that neither FWH bittered beers (or all late hop beers, for that matter) don't give me the bitterness I like.
And Yoop, I hope you ALWAYS feel free to disagree with me.
And Yoop, I hope you ALWAYS feel free to disagree with me.
And this is one thing I very much disagree with John about. You can use ANY hops like the flavor of for FWH. I use high alpha hops for it more often than low alpha.
Denny said:
Agreed--I love to FWH with Chinook! Plus, I'd agree with Denny (not that he needs it) that if you want a strong bitterness, you need a 60min add as well. On my Imperial hoppy beers, I actually do 'em all--FWH, 60, 15, FO. Unbelievable hop character!
Denny, you're so gracious when we "argue"!
As much as I LOVE IPAs (my favorite style), the beers I drink mass quantities of all are hoppy with a "smoother" bitterness. As Denny said, I like lower sulfate in my hoppy beers, as I perceive a "harsher" bitterness from a higher sulfate water in my brewing water. I like a smooth, mellower bitterness, but with moderate to intense hoppy flavors.
I find that FWH indeed gives enough IBUs for my taste. As Denny's testing proves, FWH tests out at about 10% higher IBUs than 60 minute additions, although blind testing shows that it's perceived as less bitter. It's plenty bitter for me, but it's smoother and mellower. I highly recommend that each brewer decide for themselves. Some love very high sulfate levels (350 ppm in Mosher's ideal pale ale water profile!), some love lower sulfate. Some love intense bitterness, some love it less intense but still "firm".
Yes, I agree here with Denny. But I think it depends on the beer and what you're making. It makes sense to FWH with columbus or chinook when you're making an IPA, but not a pilsner for example.
High AAU hops are common for FWH for me.
Hermit
fuddle
To each their own I guess. Even at a buck and a half a pint on tap I won't buy this beer because to me it is like biting into an unpeeled grapefruit. Nasty bitter but I guess it must be my 'buds'.
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/fat-heads-head-hunter-ipa/101856/
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/fat-heads-head-hunter-ipa/101856/
And what's funny is that just last night I was telling Bob that when we get down to Ohio again, that we have to get another growler of that! I LOVE that beer, and it's one of my favorite IPAs around.
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Demus
Well-Known Member
This may be the "traditional" technique, but I think Palmer misses the mark when he states it as a rule rather than explaining what's actually happening in the process. I'm looking to understand FWH, not use some hard fast rule. I that's truly "how to brew", understand a process then cater it to your own taste and style. If we followed all the rules, what would be the point of making our own beer?
Here's one better for ya: read Stan Hieronymous' new book, "For the Love of Hops". He explains some new research that shows insights into HOW and WHY the FWH process does what it does. Better than a rule, b/c if you know the process you're more likely to accurately produce what you plan. :rockin:
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Demus
Well-Known Member
So let's say hypothetically I'm brewing a batch using a hop variety with 10% AA. The normal recipe calls for 1 oz for :60, 1 at :15 and one at knock out. If I wanted to use the same 3 ounces in this recipe and not increase the bitterness, how would I change the hop schedule?
Also, if this were an extract batch, could you just heat it to 155 for :30 minutes or so before boiling and have it work the same as FWH?
Also, if this were an extract batch, could you just heat it to 155 for :30 minutes or so before boiling and have it work the same as FWH?
Hermit
fuddle
What's really frustrating to me is I was drinking some Belle's Two Hearted last night thinking that if only it weren't so bitter it would be a fantastic beer. Greg, of Pump House fame, told me that they changed it because it didn't used to be that bitter and he didn't like the change either. I guess I know the next clone to look up......And what's funny is that just last night I was telling Bob that when we get down to Ohio again, that we have to get another growler of that! I LOVE that beer, and it's one of my favorite IPAs around.
And also listen to his interview on the BN, he gets into some pretty interesting topics such as perceived bitterness and FWH
Move the 15 min. addition to FWH. It will increase the measured bitterness, but not the way you perceive the bitterness.
That's what I do. I have a batch of extract waldo Lake amber on tap where that exact technique was used.
ScrewedBrew
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If I understand this correctly, Yooper moves the 60 minute to FWH, and Denny moves the 15 minute to FWH and still does the 60 minute?
I'm about ready to mash out a pale ale, trying to decide what to do. My recipe calls for all Cascade:
1 oz 60
1 oz 30
1.5 oz 5
1.5 oz 0
1 oz Dry hop
I'm thinking of:
1 oz FWH
No 60 min
1 oz 30 min
1.5 oz 5 min
2 oz steep after flameout
No dry hop
Critique?
I'm about ready to mash out a pale ale, trying to decide what to do. My recipe calls for all Cascade:
1 oz 60
1 oz 30
1.5 oz 5
1.5 oz 0
1 oz Dry hop
I'm thinking of:
1 oz FWH
No 60 min
1 oz 30 min
1.5 oz 5 min
2 oz steep after flameout
No dry hop
Critique?
For me, that likely wouldn't give me the bitterness I was looking for. For Yooper, it's probably be great. And I always dry hop APA/AIPA.
Yes, Denny's right. I'd move the 30 minute addition, though- either to flavor hops for more flavor (15 minutes) or to 60 minutes for more bitterness depending on your preference. And I usually dryhop APAs as well, but I LOVE hops flavor and aroma!
ScrewedBrew
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Yooper, I'm going to go with you on this one. I don't like harsh bitter but prefer lots of flavor and aroma. (just drank an IPA that tastes like grapefruit juice)
New plan
1 oz FWH
No 60 min
1.0 oz 15 min
1.5 oz 5 min
1.5 oz steep / whirlpool
1.0 oz Dry Hop
Going to lauter and add 1 oz right now.
New plan
1 oz FWH
No 60 min
1.0 oz 15 min
1.5 oz 5 min
1.5 oz steep / whirlpool
1.0 oz Dry Hop
Going to lauter and add 1 oz right now.
The Pliny the Elder clone recipe, which is all over the internet, shows us that you can brew a beer with no first-wort hops, an insane amount of early addition boil hops, along with huge amounts of late hops and dryhops yet still have a very pleasantly bitter beer that is not harsh by any means.
There are few set-in-stone answers when it comes to brewing a smooth beer with a decent amount of hops.
There are few set-in-stone answers when it comes to brewing a smooth beer with a decent amount of hops.
Bamsdealer
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I brewed a similar ipa that came out like grapefriut juice. Just kicked the keg. All whole hops I got from victory brewing. Turned out really good. Only difference was a 60 min addition of cascade in addition to the fwh to get the ibus I was looking for.
Went light on the crystal malts. Quarter lb of c10 and honey malt each was it. Really helped it finish bright and refreshing. Went with a little sugar to help it finish around 1010.
ScrewedBrew
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I bumped up the 15 min to 1.5 to get me back to 40 IBU. The grapefruit IPA beer was 100 IBU with Simcoe and Centennial. So hopefully all Cascade will not be too harsh. The sample I tasted had a light grapefruit, but so far tastes excellent
Thanks for the quick help!
Thanks for the quick help!
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