Making mead like a Winemaker vs Beer Brewer

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WVMJ

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I have been reading through some of the threads here and there seems to be two ways of looking at how to make mead, as a winemaker or a beer brewer. I just learned about Boche on here this week and started one today, thanks for the info. As a winemaker we use winemaking methods for our meads such as:

Acid blend at the begining - I see most recipes dont add acid.
Tannin - we use wine tannin or if making a melomel my favorite tannin source is elderberries. They make tannins now for both white and red wines or meads.
Oak - Meads do go really well with oak, oak sawdust in the primary, cubes, chips or staves in carboys.
Topping off - leaving very little space under the airlock.
Nutrients - I usually add half up front and half before midway.
Degassing - for a still mead a vacum pump reallly makes degassing easy.
Initial Gravity - I see a lot of recipies start with a very high gravity hoping the yeast will give up somewhere before all the honey is eaten up, its so much easier to start around 1.1 - 1.2 and let it go low, feeding in steps if you want more alcohol and later backsweetening.
Backsweetening - If the mead fermented dry its much easier to put the sweetness exactly where you want it rather than hoping it will get to where you want it if the yeast gives up on a high gravity must.
Fining - Especially after backsweetening some protein comes in with the honey, SuperKleer or Bentonite do a good job in degassed mead of removing protein hazes and making the mead stable.
Sulphites - Used in wine all the time, helps keep meads stable, slows oxidation, kills bad bugs in the mead, but I dont see much mention of such a basic step that will help you keep your meads fresh for years.
Sorbate - I dont see this mentioned much, but if you add sorbate to your mead before bottling it shouldnt start to ferment again if you want a still mead.
Melomels - They taste so much better with more fruit (even 4 gallons of fruit juice and starting at 15 pounds of honey).
Heating Honey - Dont do it, you might as well just use HFCS if you are going to boil up your honey, finings can remove and protein before bottling.

We just got our own bees this year and I am looking forward to having lots more honey to experiment with. Our best meads for the last couple of years have been black raspberry mels, blackberry mels, fresh elderberry and really interesting dried elderberry mels. I havent made a carbonated mead yet on purpose, have made some early on accidentally and need to learn a little about doing it the right way.

WVMJ
 
I've never added acid blend or tannin to my batches of mead (or any fermentations that are not beer). I've been making mostly traditional meads, although I do have a blackberry melomel that I made in 2010 that I'm looking to try out.
I've been using CO2 to take up the headspace in my vessels (for aging, or post fermentation). Works really well when you're using a vessel that can be sealed 100% (not a carboy or bucket).
I've not back sweetened a single batch to date. I've had them all finish above 1.000 (anove 1.006 actually) so I'm good.
Which also means I don't need to stabilize my meads. I have a family member that has bad reactions to the sulphites that can be used to stabilize wine (and such). So, I don't use it so that she can enjoy my batches without reservation.
At this point, I'll say there's 0% chance you'll find me boiling my honey. About the same chance of finiding me heating it up above 110F actually.
When making a melomel, plan to add a significant amount of fruit once fermentation is over. Otherwise the majority of the flavor and aroma from the fruit will go right out the airlock.

Just what I've learned from making mead over the past 2 years. Plus communicating with people that have been doing it for MUCH longer.
 
Nice posts both.....

I view it slightly differently. Meads are basically country wines, but made with honey, rather than sugar.

Because there's no real standards, other than the difference between a "show" mead and everything else, I just take it that if it's made like a wine with the usual sort of alcohol levels associated with wines, then it's mead of one sort or another (irrespective of what the more anally retentive want to call them in the break down of ingredients).

Whereas if it's made like a beer, with beer-like alcohol levels, it might be considered a braggot, but I'd more likely consider it a "honey beer".

I've made mostly traditionals, but this year has been a bit different. It's been fruit meads i.e. banana melomels (having been given some cases of banana from free) and fresh grape pyments. Bob, who runs WaH over here, has an annual "grapefest". The grapes are generally a small range of French and Italian varieties, that depend on what's available at the time/date set for the grapefest (rather than trying to guess the exact date of the harvest, so people can arrange the time to travel up to his place to collect the grapes after they've been through his de-stemmer/crusher machine, and if necessary a press). The grapes tend to be Italian grown, as it seems very hard to get hold of French grown French varieties.

So this year, I've done Merlot, Tempranillo and Shiraz pyments. I've basically made then in a more "red wine" sort of way i.e. twice daily punch down of caps, then once the ferment stops (and yes, I added honey at the start to up the gravity, then step fed a couple of times) I was hoping for the skins to drop, but I just got impatient, and was worrying about oxidation from the skins/flesh etc, so managed to cover the kitchen in fermented must while trying to press the grape skins etc.

So I've got about 15 gallons between the three grape types, that are now waiting to be racked off the sediment and have some oak staves added to age, until the middle of next year at least.

The taste at pressing time, was rather like a medium sweet red wine with distinct honey notes (the honey used was just a wild flower).

Oh, and before I forget, the first batch of the banana melomel I made, I just used a banana wine recipe as guidance and sliced up and boiled the hell out of the fruit, then strained it off and used the liquor for the batch. Once it was done, I wanted to back sweeten before ageing and chucked a 1lb jar of malt extract in (which wasn't enough to really sweeten), and then added a little honey. Damn, the malt brings out the banana flavour......:rockin:
 
I should have titled it "Making mead like a Winemaker OR Beer Brewer". My mead mentor introduced us to the beer brewer style first as he was a beer brewer. We turned to making wines and made still meads. We do a lot like FatBloke, adapting country wine recipes and using honey as the carb source for the yeast plus whatever is in the fruit. Since we also grow most of our own fruit putting enough in at the begining so its not lost during the fermentation is easy, put in as much as you can, even 4 gallons of 100% berry juice and honey to raise the SG, and then feed back some honey during fermentation to get it a little stronger to balance out the acid levels.

Acid isnt important for beer based recipes for making mead as the CO2 protects the mead, but as more people make more wine style still meads some of the winemaking based methods lend themselves to making better meads.

FB, we are making a banana mead, to bad we cant swap a bottle.

WVMJ
 
Nice posts both.....

I view it slightly differently. Meads are basically country wines, but made with honey, rather than sugar.

Because there's no real standards, other than the difference between a "show" mead and everything else, I just take it that if it's made like a wine with the usual sort of alcohol levels associated with wines, then it's mead of one sort or another (irrespective of what the more anally retentive want to call them in the break down of ingredients).

Whereas if it's made like a beer, with beer-like alcohol levels, it might be considered a braggot, but I'd more likely consider it a "honey beer".

I've made mostly traditionals, but this year has been a bit different. It's been fruit meads i.e. banana melomels (having been given some cases of banana from free) and fresh grape pyments. Bob, who runs WaH over here, has an annual "grapefest". The grapes are generally a small range of French and Italian varieties, that depend on what's available at the time/date set for the grapefest (rather than trying to guess the exact date of the harvest, so people can arrange the time to travel up to his place to collect the grapes after they've been through his de-stemmer/crusher machine, and if necessary a press). The grapes tend to be Italian grown, as it seems very hard to get hold of French grown French varieties.

So this year, I've done Merlot, Tempranillo and Shiraz pyments. I've basically made then in a more "red wine" sort of way i.e. twice daily punch down of caps, then once the ferment stops (and yes, I added honey at the start to up the gravity, then step fed a couple of times) I was hoping for the skins to drop, but I just got impatient, and was worrying about oxidation from the skins/flesh etc, so managed to cover the kitchen in fermented must while trying to press the grape skins etc.

So I've got about 15 gallons between the three grape types, that are now waiting to be racked off the sediment and have some oak staves added to age, until the middle of next year at least.

The taste at pressing time, was rather like a medium sweet red wine with distinct honey notes (the honey used was just a wild flower).

Oh, and before I forget, the first batch of the banana melomel I made, I just used a banana wine recipe as guidance and sliced up and boiled the hell out of the fruit, then strained it off and used the liquor for the batch. Once it was done, I wanted to back sweeten before ageing and chucked a 1lb jar of malt extract in (which wasn't enough to really sweeten), and then added a little honey. Damn, the malt brings out the banana flavour......:rockin:

This is a shot in the dark but I was wondering if you would share your banana recipe. And had one other question can your fortify Mead?
 
You can fortify your ice cream if you want to:) Of course you can fortify it. I think its important to have a balance of acidity, sweetness and alcohol that would accept fortification rather than just dumping some in to boost the alcohol levels.

Our banana mead is an unproven recipe but here it is. We added more acid to bring it to the right level.
Wine Type Banana Mead 12
Start Date: 11/23/12
Gallons 5
Yeast Premier Cuvee
Recipie Ref.
Fruit Source Dole Bananas
Fruit Quantity 17.8 lb
Maceration Slice w/peels, simmer 30 min
W/5 Tbsp Acid Blend
Zymoclear 10 drops after cool
Amylase Hazyme C P.I. 10 drops after cool
Honey-Herb Everhart 1 gal Raw Locust
Superferment 1 tsp/gal P.I. 5
Fermocel P AEB 15 at start, 15 halfway
Opti-Red 1 gm/gal MoreWine 5 gm

Macerate bananans with enzymes overnight, then squeeze in strainer bag, ferment with just this juice, discard pulp.


WVMJ
 
This is a shot in the dark but I was wondering if you would share your banana recipe. And had one other question can your fortify Mead?
If you follow my blog link, most of the info is there (I think....).

I didn't actually follow a recipe, I just asked at some other forums about how to handle the fruit, plus I just googled for recipes and ideas. The first batch was a boil the sliced fruit one and then it was strained and the liquor was fermented etc, the second batch was a boil the fruit and then ferment on the pulp.

The third batch was the same but then also once fermented, it was racked and more fresh sliced fruit added to secondary.

As for fortifying, yes of course you can. Just remember that you may also have to do something to add body i.e. back sweeten to not only sweeten it up but the sweetener would also help with body/viscosity. Think sherry or port - both fortified.

Plus it would depend on the batch ingredients as to what you'd actually fortify with. Something like rum would probably go well with a banana mead, etc etc.......
 
as far as making mead like wine or beer, i would say mead is nothing like beer brewing.
granted there is the style of mead that is low in alcohol like beer, but other than that i can't think of anything that is beer like in mead making.
 
Some beer brewers have adapter their beer brewing techniques to mead. You could also consider besides its low alcohol level in that style that is also carbonated and bottled in little beer bottles, often with a beer cap, served cold etc.

A mead maker in NZ, what kinds of honey do you guys use, eucolyptus? I bet your wildflower honey is extrodiare.

WVMJ
 
Golddiggie earlier talked about how they have adapter their beer brewing techniques to mead. You could also consider besides its low alcohol level in that style that is also carbonated and bottled in little beer bottles, often with a beer cap, served cold etc.

A mead maker in NZ, what kinds of honey do you guys use, eucolyptus? I bet your wildflower honey is extrodiare.

WVMJ

whaaaaaa??? I've not said that, nor do I do that. ALL my meads are in the 14% ABV range and ABOVE. I have one in process that's 21% (needs the flavor additions started) and another on deck that will go (I hope) above 24%.
 
Whoops, shows what I know about making beer then :):) One thing you mentioned about the fruit, if you add enough fruit it doesnt get blown away by the fermentation, a few pounds per gallon gets blown away, 5 or 6 pounds doesnt. I do like to add a few pounds of strawberries a couple of days before racking to add even more nose to the meads, that little bit of strawberries can fill a room up. WVMJ

whaaaaaa??? I've not said that, nor do I do that. ALL my meads are in the 14% ABV range and ABOVE. I have one in process that's 21% (needs the flavor additions started) and another on deck that will go (I hope) above 24%.
 
Whoops, shows what I know about making beer then :):) One thing you mentioned about the fruit, if you add enough fruit it doesnt get blown away by the fermentation, a few pounds per gallon gets blown away, 5 or 6 pounds doesnt. I do like to add a few pounds of strawberries a couple of days before racking to add even more nose to the meads, that little bit of strawberries can fill a room up. WVMJ

I've never added fruit to any beers, just to ONE melomel (a blackberry) that I made over two years ago. Early on, it wasn't all that good (unlike my traditional meads). I'm hoping that after spending another 1-1/2 years on bottles, that it will be good to drink. I don't know if I'll ever make another melomel. I have much better luck when NOT using fruit in my meads.

BTW, before you start comparing mead making and beer brewing, you should (IMO) become more knowledgeable in brewing beer.
 
Some beer brewers have adapter their beer brewing techniques to mead. You could also consider besides its low alcohol level in that style that is also carbonated and bottled in little beer bottles, often with a beer cap, served cold etc.
that more bottling rather than brewing.
beer dosn't have to worry much on nutrient, often a different heat range, mead doesn't have any mashing etc.
A mead maker in NZ, what kinds of honey do you guys use, eucalyptus? I bet your wildflower honey is extrodiare.

WVMJ
your thinking of aussie.

i'm not having much luck with manuka and bush honey. official description of manuka honey includes "earthy" and thats exactly the taste that comes through. so next lot i may just stick to clover.
 
GD, We make very good melomels, maybe go back and read post #1 to help:) Wife likes the Black Raspberry best, I like the Dried Elderberry, lots of fruit is the key, most melomel recipes add so little fruit it turns out more like a Rose. The acid also has to be there and degassing to eliminate the CO2 bite. WVMJ

I've never added fruit to any beers, just to ONE melomel (a blackberry) that I made over two years ago. Early on, it wasn't all that good (unlike my traditional meads). I'm hoping that after spending another 1-1/2 years on bottles, that it will be good to drink. I don't know if I'll ever make another melomel. I have much better luck when NOT using fruit in my meads.

BTW, before you start comparing mead making and beer brewing, you should (IMO) become more knowledgeable in brewing beer.
 
GD, We make very good melomels, maybe go back and read post #1 to help:) Wife likes the Black Raspberry best, I like the Dried Elderberry, lots of fruit is the key, most melomel recipes add so little fruit it turns out more like a Rose. The acid also has to be there and degassing to eliminate the CO2 bite. WVMJ

If you read all of my post (that you quoted) I was talking about your referencing to the beer making process. Since it seems like you have very little (if any) beer brewing experience, IMO, comparing them is invalid. About all they share is you pitch yeast and need to take care of them. Virtually everything else is different. Since I've made ONE melomel (also in my posts) I've NOT seen the need to use tannins, or acid, in my meads. In my traditional (and even flavored meads) degassing hasn't been an issue, nor have they needed acid. IME, adding acid will [shock] reduce the ph, which can seriously stress out the yeast (they really don't like it below a ph of ~3.2, getting grumpy around 3.3-3.4) and give you issues. Adding acid to a must that's already high in acidic fruit is (IMO/IME) stupid. Also, without checking my notes for specifics, I ended up adding about 6-7 pounds of blackberries (mashed up) to my 3 gallon melomel batch. Some in primary, the rest post fermentation (maybe 3# in primary). It's been sitting in bottles for about 1-1/2 years now, and I hope it's finally getting to the point where it's good in the glass.

Just as I wouldn't apply the exact same ingredients, and techniques, to all beer styles, applying the same techniques to all mead types/styles is unwise (at best).

Maybe you should actually read MY posts again. :eek: :D
 
GD, I was going through the posts on the mead section and seeing how different some of the mead makers make mead here with their beer brewing backgrounds as being different from winemakers making mead. Most beerbrewers I understand dont care about the total acidity of their brew because the ingredients are not acidic. As your last post in this thread shows you dont seem to have an understanding of the total acids in wines. Yes, you would have to be stupid to add acid to a high acidity fruit, but winemakers know how to measure the total acidity of the must and adjust it with acid blend for each batch. Adding acid blend is not the same as adding sulfuric acid, there are many things that contribute to the total acidity, and its only a part of the pH. There is very little acidity in honey, once its diluted in the must its hard to even taste, so adding some acid to a traditional mead would bring the pH down to where the yeast prefer and give a healthier fermentation and help keep the must from being contaminated.

As far as degassing, if you let them bulk age enough you wouldnt have to degass, but sometimes even a year in a carboy they still have some gas, reducing the CO2 reduces the sharp taste, not a problem in beer as its supposed to be part of the taste, but in a still mead or wine its not supposed to be there so removing it is beneficial to the final taste.

I like 6 or 10 pounds of fruit per gallon in melomels and bring the sugar level up with honey and keep adding honey until it stops, then add a little before bottling to freshen up the honey taste so its kind of equal fruit, equal honey. Traditionally its more often made with so much less fruit that you can barely taste the fruit even if you add it at the end, you get a blush of a wine if you are lucky.

There is a book called Award Winning Wines by Bill Smith, he likes to get a fermentation going and then add the fruit at the end of the fermentation to preserve the fruit flavor, I think that is what the trend is in traditional mels, its a good book to read to give meadmakers some more insight on how to balance the entire batch, acidity etc and make a better melomel, and one that doesnt take a couple of years to drink. Ours with all that acid blend etc are good out of the carboy before they are even aged a year. I think if the traditional meads were made more balanced to support the health of the yeast a better product would be made and you wouldnt probably have to wait years for the offtastes to settle out before enjoying a bottle.

WVMJ
 
GD, I was going through the posts on the mead section and seeing how different some of the mead makers make mead here with their beer brewing backgrounds as being different from winemakers making mead. Most beerbrewers I understand dont care about the total acidity of their brew because the ingredients are not acidic. As your last post in this thread shows you dont seem to have an understanding of the total acids in wines. Yes, you would have to be stupid to add acid to a high acidity fruit, but winemakers know how to measure the total acidity of the must and adjust it with acid blend for each batch. Adding acid blend is not the same as adding sulfuric acid, there are many things that contribute to the total acidity, and its only a part of the pH. There is very little acidity in honey, once its diluted in the must its hard to even taste, so adding some acid to a traditional mead would bring the pH down to where the yeast prefer and give a healthier fermentation and help keep the must from being contaminated.

As far as degassing, if you let them bulk age enough you wouldnt have to degass, but sometimes even a year in a carboy they still have some gas, reducing the CO2 reduces the sharp taste, not a problem in beer as its supposed to be part of the taste, but in a still mead or wine its not supposed to be there so removing it is beneficial to the final taste.

I like 6 or 10 pounds of fruit per gallon in melomels and bring the sugar level up with honey and keep adding honey until it stops, then add a little before bottling to freshen up the honey taste so its kind of equal fruit, equal honey. Traditionally its more often made with so much less fruit that you can barely taste the fruit even if you add it at the end, you get a blush of a wine if you are lucky.

There is a book called Award Winning Wines by Bill Smith, he likes to get a fermentation going and then add the fruit at the end of the fermentation to preserve the fruit flavor, I think that is what the trend is in traditional mels, its a good book to read to give meadmakers some more insight on how to balance the entire batch, acidity etc and make a better melomel, and one that doesnt take a couple of years to drink. Ours with all that acid blend etc are good out of the carboy before they are even aged a year. I think if the traditional meads were made more balanced to support the health of the yeast a better product would be made and you wouldnt probably have to wait years for the offtastes to settle out before enjoying a bottle.

WVMJ


Actually one of the reasons why acid blend is not added up front to a mead is because during fermentation the PH can take a wild swing downward thus stalling out the yeast.
 
Actually one of the reasons why acid blend is not added up front to a mead is because during fermentation the PH can take a wild swing downward thus stalling out the yeast.
Correct.

Plus reading other posts here I find a little frustrating at times.

Because of the massive amounts of beer making experience hereabouts, a lot of people move over to trying meads but using similar methods to their beer making.

Whereas those of us who're more wine and mead people see those kind of practices completely differently and sometimes get shot down in a shower of **** when we try to explain some of the finer points in the different techniques.

Of course, there will always be some parallels, but generally meads are closer to wines, than to beers, even if you can make some stellar brews with honey and a beer-like technique.

It's easily forgotten that with beers, the starches need converting first, or that they need extracting from the grain etc etc, just because you end up with the carbs/sugars to ferment, the earlier processes make it very different. Wines and meads generally already have the carbs/sugars ready to go, and with meads and/or honey it's all sugars and very little else, hence a reliance on nutrients/energisers/etc etc to get it to do it's thing "properly".

Also it doesn't help, that it would be much easier to get our point across in the sense of which the advice/guidance is really offered in a big debating chamber - especially as so much of communication/interaction between people is visual, whereas here we're trying to pass on our ideas, points of view, etc purely by text.

Ergo, it's very easy to take someones posts/comments out of context and feel that they're being critical, when they're just trying to convey something in the more direct method with text. It'd be great if we could all do this with a giant "conference call" that included visual/webcam input and still be searchable like with forum posts etc....

See, stuff like WVMJ alluding to using dried elderberry. Now I've done a couple of dried elderberry batches and they both came out with a "dusty" or "earthy" note, whereas I like using fresh elderberry. Those batches come out fine but now, I wouldn't use dried elderberry (and yes I'm fully aware that the base genus of elderberry grown in the US is a bit different from those available this side of the pond).

Or as Golddiggie alludes, I also do mostly traditionals, but can be quite picky on the type of honey I use for those. We don't have a wide range of varietals available here, the ones that are, seem good, but shipping costs preclude attempting a wider range - and yes, most of my trads also weigh in at about the 14% ABV range or thereabouts. And no, I understand the basics of beer making but don't make beers as I haven't got the space for the additional kit and that beer takes up more room, given the bigger volumes generally made, so I don't make them.....

I like it here, but I also like it over at Gotmead as the main focus is mead, yet I also get frustrated when it's clear that someone posts a question that's been answered a number of times (whether by me or other "regulars") because they haven't used the search facility, or if they have, haven't learned that you only need to vary the search terms/criteria a tiny amount to get completely different answers.....

Well that's my tuppence worth ATM. I like threads like this as they're conducted how I presume the original person/people who start such forums intended. Civilly, with respect for others points of view, understanding and tolerance.

Keep it up all :rockin::ban::mug:
 
I thought that would happen to all those people making skeeter pee where they add concentrated lemon juice right ontop of the leftover yeast from making a batch of wine but they get theirs to fement just fine. That big dip in pH is not going to hurt your yeasts in a mead, when you dilute the honey you dilute its small amount of acids and dilute out pH so there is not enough acid to provide a healthy enviornment for the yeast, that is much more important than worrying if the pH will drop to much, since at the start without any added acid your pH is very high, high enough that other contaminating microbes could grow. I keep wondering why traditional mead makers say their meads take years to age out to be drinkable. I keep wondering if its the initial enviornment lacking such basics as a proper acid level and nutrients.

WVMJ

Actually one of the reasons why acid blend is not added up front to a mead is because during fermentation the PH can take a wild swing downward thus stalling out the yeast.
 
Hi Fatbloke, how is your banner mead coming along, I started one recently, did a big boil of all the bananas and skins, cooled, hit them with some anylase to break down more of the starch into sugars and its very nice golden color right now. WVMJ
 
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