Saison recipe, What do you think?

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mattldm

mattldm

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Fairly simple saison recipe, look good?

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 7.24 gal
Estimated OG: 1.060 SG
Estimated Color: 9.1 SRM
Estimated IBU: 29.7 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (1.1 SRM) Grain 81.82 %
0.75 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
0.50 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
0.25 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.27 %
1.00 oz Pearle [6.50 %] (60 min) Hops 24.3 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz [4.00 %] (10 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
1.00 oz Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 4.55 %
1 Pkgs Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) Yeast-Ale

Total Grain Weight: 10.50 lb
----------------------------
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
70 min Step Add 4.52 gal of water at 157.8 F 149.0 F
 
The biggest thing I see is that you probably need to trade out the abbey ale yeast for a saison yeast. I would recommend either wyeast 3711 french saison, or WLP578 Belgian Saison Ale Style blend.

Otherwise, some people might say take out the special B as it will add plum/raisin flavors, but that is all to a persons taste. So feel free to keep it. But I will say, it is not a saison without a saison yeast.
 
You don't need that orange peel. A properly made saison will get you those nice orange and lemon flavors from the yeast alone. Definitely get yourself an actual saison yeast. The Wyeast 3711 (as mentioned above) is my favorite.

A good saison yeast will provide that silky mouthfeel that you want in a saison.

Also that little dash of special b is fine. Not trying to contradict the previous poster but that small of an amount will get you to a nice golden color without adding hardly any flavor.

Here's my recipe for a saison. It's pretty damn fantastic and is about to become a house staple. It features Nelson Sauvin hops, but I've done the same recipe using all Willamette and it turned out great too.
 
You might also consider upping the percentage of wheat. It will really help with the mouthfeel.

Something important when brewing a saison is to properly carbonate it. I typically carb mine up to 3.2 volumes.
 
I'd increase the percentage of sugar to 10-20% of the fermentables, there are too many overly sweet saisons.
 
I don't know about 20% sugar. That's a little high. While I agree that the best part of a saison is the dryness, you don't want it to be too thin, or have harsh alcohol. Instead a good low mash is the real key. 147 is what I like to mash at.
 
rockfish42 said:
I'd increase the percentage of sugar to 10-20% of the fermentables, there are too many overly sweet saisons.
Click to expand...


I would say that perhaps 1lb-1.5lb would be about right. Maybe a bit much, but it wouldn't be overdoing it.

I normally only add 1lb to my belgain tripel, and that is a 1.078 gravity and it gets sub 1.010 (around 1.008-006).
 
Use of spices is allowed and practiced by some Belgian breweries. Saison Dupont is said to use no spices and all the flavors come from the yeast.

I am going to bang out a few other recipes while its still early spring here. 3711 is going on a few rides this summer and I am thinking of doing a dark saison and might do one at a really high temp (90F).
 
thanks for the comments.

Would upping the sugar during the boil be a good idea or should I reserve some sugar and add it to the carboy during fermentation? Say 1/2 lb. in the boil and 1/2lb. in the carboy?
 
Homebrewtastic said:
You might also consider upping the percentage of wheat. It will really help with the mouthfeel.

Something important when brewing a saison is to properly carbonate it. I typically carb mine up to 3.2 volumes.
Click to expand...

Ill need some longer beer lines for that high a carb level. I can get 2.6-2.7 ish out of my current setup without too much trouble, but 3.2 Ill have a glass of saison du foam! lol
 
mattldm said:
thanks for the comments.

Would upping the sugar during the boil be a good idea or should I reserve some sugar and add it to the carboy during fermentation? Say 1/2 lb. in the boil and 1/2lb. in the carboy?
Click to expand...

Just try and keep the sucrose at 15% or less of the Fermentables in the SG. Yeast will quickly lose the enzyme power it takes to digest maltose if there is an abundance of simpler sugars such as sucrose in the wort.

As a rule of thumb, if it's over 15% of fermentables, add it in increments like you have listed above. If it is not, add it during the boil.
 
KyleWolf said:
The biggest thing I see is that you probably need to trade out the abbey ale yeast for a saison yeast. I would recommend either wyeast 3711 french saison, or WLP578 Belgian Saison Ale Style blend.

Otherwise, some people might say take out the special B as it will add plum/raisin flavors, but that is all to a persons taste. So feel free to keep it. But I will say, it is not a saison without a saison yeast.
Click to expand...

I do like the flavor of the special B, I hope that It adds a little complexity to the brew. I will have to try the 3711 next time, it seems quite popular around these parts. However I already have the 530 so Im going to go with it this time.
 
mattldm said:
thanks for the comments.

Would upping the sugar during the boil be a good idea or should I reserve some sugar and add it to the carboy during fermentation? Say 1/2 lb. in the boil and 1/2lb. in the carboy?
Click to expand...

I would say add all of it (as a simple syrup) half-way (2-3 days) into fermentation.
 
mattldm said:
I do like the flavor of the special B, I hope that It adds a little complexity to the brew. I will have to try the 3711 next time, it seems quite popular around these parts. However I already have the 530 so Im going to go with it this time.
Click to expand...

Not trying to be too critical here, but I'm telling you that a saison yeast is really important to making a good saison. If you already have the 530, and are set on using that for a beer, why not tweak your recipe to make a different style altogether?

I don't think that your beer will turn out bad with that yeast at all, in fact you'll probably make a pretty good beer. But it probably won't be the beer for which you are hoping.

My .02.
 
Homebrewtastic said:
Not trying to be too critical here, but I'm telling you that a saison yeast is really important to making a good saison. If you already have the 530, and are set on using that for a beer, why not tweak your recipe to make a different style altogether?

I don't think that your beer will turn out bad with that yeast at all, in fact you'll probably make a pretty good beer. But it probably won't be the beer for which you are hoping.

My .02.
Click to expand...

No Problem. I guess It doesnt really fall into the saison catagory without the yeast, but It doesnt fit any other catagory either. Oh well, will see how it comes out!
 
I went ahead and picked up some WLP565 saison yeast, so now I can officially call it a saison! lol

I will save the WLP530 for another day... any ideas on a tasty recipe to use the 530??
 
Oh, and kill the sugar...if you go w/3711 you wont need the sugar. Is it warm enough (even in CA) to brew w/wlp 565? Stuck fermentations suck.
 
While I don't agree with need for more grain and no sugar (I prefer a more "table strength" saison... but it's all a matter of taste I suppose), I would be concerned about the wlp565 pooping out on you. That yeast is notorious for sticking at around 1.020, and then taking a couple of months to dry out. So if you can after the first 5 - 7 days of fermentation, ramp that sucker up to the mid 80s. That will help it dry out.
 
Homebrewtastic said:
While I don't agree with need for more grain and no sugar (I prefer a more "table strength" saison... but it's all a matter of taste I suppose), I would be concerned about the wlp565 pooping out on you. That yeast is notorious for sticking at around 1.020, and then taking a couple of months to dry out. So if you can after the first 5 - 7 days of fermentation, ramp that sucker up to the mid 80s. That will help it dry out.
Click to expand...

thats the plan. I have a temp controlled fermentation box with a heater and a digital controller so I can set whatever temp I need. I pitched last night at around 67° and its up to 71° and going crazy this morning. I plan on bringing the temp up a degree or two a day to around 78-80. I also have a bunch of wlp001 so I will probably add some of that in a few days if it seems to be stopping
 
I was just wondering, if the 565 does stall out and I need to add more yeast to get it going, do I need to add sugar as well or will just pitching some 001 yeast finish out the beer? I have plenty of good 001 from a local brewery on hand so the additional yeast is not a problem, I was just wondering if I should add some sugar along with it?
 
Id use 3711, if you stall. I really is a beast when it comes to eating all the sugars. If you can get the 001 for free though, Id go that way.
 
I agree with bh10.

From the Wyeast website

A very versatile strain that produces Saison or farmhouse style biers as well as other Belgian style beers that are highly aromatic (estery), peppery, spicy and citrusy. This strain enhances the use of spices and aroma hops, and is extremely attenuative but leaves an unexpected silky and rich mouthfeel. This strain can also be used to re-start stuck fermentations or in high gravity beers.

Origin:
Flocculation: Low
Attenuation: 77-83%
Temperature Range: 65-77F 18-25C
Alcohol Tolerance: ABV 12%
Click to expand...
 
How does mine look?
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.062 SG
Estimated Color: 6.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb American 2-Row (1.0 SRM) Grain 54.00 %
4.00 lb Pilsner Malt (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 43.00 %
0.50 lb Vienna Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 3.00 %
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 24.3 IBU
0.25 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (60 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
0.25 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (20 min) Hops
0.25 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (5 min) Hops
0.50 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (1 min) Hops
1.00 lb Orange Blossom Honey (1.0 SRM) (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 lb White Grape Juice, (1.0 SRM) (3 days into Fermentation) Misc
1 Pkgs Saison (Wyeast 3711) Yeast-Ale

Total Grain Weight: 9.50 lb
----------------------------

I'm hoping the lemony hops will match up with the white grape juice really well.

http://rem4606mancave.blogspot.com/2011/04/creating-your-signature-brew.html
 
Fermentation is still going strong after 3 days, however it's slowing! Maybe I'll have good luck with the 565 and it will finish out on it own? I have the temp at 80, going to check the gravity tomorrow.
 
brewmaster12 said:
How does mine look?
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.062 SG
Estimated Color: 6.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb American 2-Row (1.0 SRM) Grain 54.00 %
4.00 lb Pilsner Malt (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 43.00 %
0.50 lb Vienna Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 3.00 %
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 24.3 IBU
0.25 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (60 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
0.25 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (20 min) Hops
0.25 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (5 min) Hops
0.50 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (1 min) Hops
1.00 lb Orange Blossom Honey (1.0 SRM) (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 lb White Grape Juice, (1.0 SRM) (3 days into Fermentation) Misc
1 Pkgs Saison (Wyeast 3711) Yeast-Ale

Total Grain Weight: 9.50 lb
----------------------------

I'm hoping the lemony hops will match up with the white grape juice really well.

http://rem4606mancave.blogspot.com/2011/04/creating-your-signature-brew.html
Click to expand...

Why are you using grape juice?

Aside from that I would shift the ratio of Pilsner to 2-Row. Use less 2-Row and more Pils. Other than that maybe use a touch of wheat for mouthfeel, and a small dash (quarter pound) of dark crystal malt for color (if you want it that nice golden color).

But I think your hop profile looks great. I love a saison with a great hop character.
 
Homebrewtastic said:
Why are you using grape juice?

Aside from that I would shift the ratio of Pilsner to 2-Row. Use less 2-Row and more Pils. Other than that maybe use a touch of wheat for mouthfeel, and a small dash (quarter pound) of dark crystal malt for color (if you want it that nice golden color).

But I think your hop profile looks great. I love a saison with a great hop character.
Click to expand...

I got inspired by the He'brew Rejewvenator and really liked the idea of using grape juice in a beer. I thought that the crisp and peppery saison yeast was the perfect candidate. I'll definitely up the Pils and add a little bit of crystal 60 to it. I'll let you know how it goes.
 
brewmaster12 said:
How does mine look?
Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.062 SG
Estimated Color: 6.0 SRM
Estimated IBU: 38.4 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb American 2-Row (1.0 SRM) Grain 54.00 %
4.00 lb Pilsner Malt (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 43.00 %
0.50 lb Vienna Malt (3.0 SRM) Grain 3.00 %
0.75 oz Cascade [5.50 %] (60 min) Hops 24.3 IBU
0.25 oz Centennial [10.00 %] (60 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
0.25 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (20 min) Hops
0.25 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (5 min) Hops
0.50 Sorachi Ace [13.7 %] (1 min) Hops
1.00 lb Orange Blossom Honey (1.0 SRM) (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 lb White Grape Juice, (1.0 SRM) (3 days into Fermentation) Misc
1 Pkgs Saison (Wyeast 3711) Yeast-Ale

Total Grain Weight: 9.50 lb
----------------------------

I'm hoping the lemony hops will match up with the white grape juice really well.

http://rem4606mancave.blogspot.com/2011/04/creating-your-signature-brew.html
Click to expand...

Well that will certainly be an interesting beer. It won't be a saison but it should be interesting. Why not try a more neutral yeast so that your ingredients show to advantage?



PTN
 
So after 9 days the gravity on my saison is down to 1.013 (started at 1.063), Id say I did pretty well with the 565 yeast not crapping out on me!

However, the beer tastes good, but its a little plain. Not as much character or spice as I was hoping. So im thinking of dry hopping it with a bit of Saaz and maybe some fresh orange zest.

What do you think?
 
So the saison is kegged and carbed, and tastes pretty good. however it has absolutely no head whatsoever! The beer is carbed fine but just will not pour a head no matter what! I have never had a beer act this way!

I have my pale ale on tap also, running off the same CO2 bottle (at lower pressure, dual regulator) and it pours a perfect head, so I dont think the problem is the CO2.

There is nothing "weird" ingredient wise in this beer. Is there some reason the Saison would act this way?
 
mattldm said:
So the saison is kegged and carbed, and tastes pretty good. however it has absolutely no head whatsoever! The beer is carbed fine but just will not pour a head no matter what! I have never had a beer act this way!

I have my pale ale on tap also, running off the same CO2 bottle (at lower pressure, dual regulator) and it pours a perfect head, so I dont think the problem is the CO2.

There is nothing "weird" ingredient wise in this beer. Is there some reason the Saison would act this way?
Click to expand...

Hrm.... Not too sure. What did your OG and FG end up being?

I usually use a higher percentage of wheat in mine to help the body and head retention.
 

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