British Yeasts, Fermentation Temps and Profiles, CYBI, Other Thoughts...

88% 2 row (supplier was out of MO)
8% Crystal 60
4% Victory

1:1 water to grain

150 deg. for 60 min

Thermo is new and was calibrated the week before and temps were the same between it and temp strip on outside of carboy.

I had 1968 do this same thing to me 8 months ago on a different ESB and a couple other guys in my club experienced the same thing at that time.

I've used this yeast in the past and it's always fermented fast and floc'd really well and given at least 75% attenuation so it seems kind of strange that these last two times have been like this.

Is your fermentation temp constant? I know that the english yeasts I've used will flocc out at the drop of a hat if your temp drops, and it's hard to get them going again.

Seems to be pretty constant. I've been checking every morning and evening and there's never been more than 1 degree of variation.

Hope you get info from someone who's used that yeast in particular. I've used a number of english yeasts, but not that one.

The only other english yeast I've used is Notty and that's nothing like 1968 in my experience.

I use London Ale III regularly, but have also used notty, s04 and ringwood.

If I can't get 1968 to behave for me then I'm going to have to find another strain to use because I have to brew english beers.

Do you find that London Ale III always finishes sweet or have you been able to get it to dry out in a bitter?

How did you oxygenate? Did you pitch a "proper" amount?

No, it doesn't finish sweet unless you want it to, by means of recipe formulation or mash temp.

Don't use too much crystal and mash around 151 and it dries out appropriately for an english ale.

I used 1968 a lot last year. Did you make a starter or just pitch the activator? I think it needs a bigger pitch to get going especially at that gravity. i've had problems using a fresh activator in a 1.040 beer (see https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/n...e-fermentation-267303/index2.html#post3735664). Its a great yeast when it works for you but it can be tricky ...but so are a lot of the high floculating british yeasts.

10 gal batch
2 liter starter with 2 smack packs

Actually a little higher pitch rate than Mr. Malty says to do.

For aeration I siphon from my BK into the carboy splashing as much as possible and then shake the whole thing for at least 5 min.

I do love the nuances that this yeast brings to an ESB it just doesn't seem to be very cooperative for me.

Beirhaus15,

I just found this thread, looking for answers on my issues using 1968.
I decided to use this yeast for my ESB. I fermented 3 weeks at 65 degrees. The yeast cake was alarming hard and dry, but I figured it was normal for this yeast. It tasted fine going into the bottles. Primed with dextrose as I always do.
After 3 weeks in the bottle, it was overcarbed and had a cider tart taste to it. The carbonation issue got worse and I had to dump the beer.
I always use 1098 with my English Ales and always get a great beer. I've been brewing for 4 years now.

I made the mistake of re-pitching this yeast on 2 other batches before I got to taste the ESB. I made a hoppy pale ale and a Mild after that. The mild developed the same issue, foaming and cider off flavors. While the Hoppy pale ale made it out fine. I know it isn't a sanitation issue on the bottles as the whole batch has the issue.
Some who tasted the beer have said it was an infection, but how do we explain the IPA not having any issues and the 1st and 3rd batch did? Weird.

I am going to make sure on the sanitation issue and replace some hoses and a fermentor bucket in the process. This was the first time I ran into the issue of gushing bottles.

Having said this, I won't use this yeast again and stick with my tried and try 1098.
Just thought I'd share my experiences.

Is it possible the hops "hid" the cider flavor in the middle beer?

To me it sounds like you're abandoning a great strain due to issues that aren't yeast related. Maybe split a batch and do both yeasts side by side, minimizing all the other sources of variation...?

Louie said:

Is it possible the hops "hid" the cider flavor in the middle beer?

To me it sounds like you're abandoning a great strain due to issues that aren't yeast related. Maybe split a batch and do both yeasts side by side, minimizing all the other sources of variation...?

Click to expand...

Other people have complained about this yeast's performance when bottle conditioning. I've only used it when kegging and it works fine for that.

lx302 said:

I just found this thread, looking for answers on my issues using 1968.

Click to expand...

It is definitely a yeast issue. I thought it might a sanitation issue at first - due to the off flavors - but it does appear to be due to the flocculative nature of the yeast. The yeast are basically re-activating in the bottle with all the new sugar and oxygen. Why the cidery flavor develops, I still don't know. I emailed wyeast about this and they confirmed the yeast reactivating part, but didn't say anything about what could cause the off flavors. I pretty much only keg my English beers now (without any problems) though I can only recommend making sure your yeast has reached a FG before bottling. If this means not cold crashing or rousing a few times, it can't hurt. I've also encountered this issue with a few other strains, including 1318.

I am not a huge fan of 1098 but if it works well for you, stick with it. However, 1968 is one of those strains that you just can't replicate the flavor with a different yeast. I wouldn't give it up just yet, though I can understand why you might if you only bottle. Good luck!

Bierhaus15
Waaaaaaaaay back at the beginning of this thread, you said you were "on the fence" about 1335. Can you elaborate on that, particularly in a bitter? Thanks.

bump

Edit: has anyone tried this type of ferm schedule with other types of brews using English yeasts? Browns, porters, etc?

I can't freaking believe I missed this post. Holy cow. I'm so fired up right now I can hardly see. The thing that makes me craziest is that I remember reading it when the post first started last year....

Here's why I'm spazzing: like lx302, I not only embraced 1968 but washed and re-pitched on four successive beers. I started with a Fuller's clone, then a dark mild, an American brown, and finished with an RIS. At bottling time, every one was fantastic--some of the best beer I've made, or so I thought. I even sent all four to a competition in February.

Fast forward to March: I get exactly what's described here--foaming & off flavor. The first bottle bombs I've had in 30+ batches of beer. I thought I'd somehow gotten an infection. Needles to say, the competition scores came back disappointingly low.

I wish I'd focused on the warning about not bottling/using priming sugar. I'd given up on 1968. Now that I can keg my beer, I'm going to give it another shot!

--pirat

Just wanted to mention that WLP022 Essex Ale is now available for all you British yeast enthusiasts. Similar to s-04/1098 but with a bit more character. Give it a try.

Hi all, this is a great thread, and has been a real eye-opener. I'm glad to be able to learn from everyone else's experience.

I don't have a keg (yet) and am only doing bottles, and for fermentation I have a swamp cooler for temp control.

I'm planning on doing a Southern English Mild for my next brew, and after looking through the thread, decided to switch the yeast from wlp002 (recommended for the recipe) to wy1318, since it seems like the 1318 yeast works better with bottle priming.

It also sounds like the ideal procedure is to start the fermentation low and let it gradually rise to about 68 or 70 degrees for a couple of weeks, with a short D-rest at the end before bottling. Leaving the wort too long on the yeast will clean the beer too much and take away all the lovely English character.

Is the best bet to sample the beer until it tastes about right (and the gravity hasn't changed for a couple of days) and then go straight to bottling? Is crash cooling necessary to "lock in" the flavor?

Wow, finally got through this whole thread, and just in time. I brewed KingBrianI's Common Room ESB on Sunday and have it split between 1968 and S-04. They are both chugging away in their respective carboys at 59F ambient. I'm going to start bringing the temp up by 3 degrees a day until I hit 68 ambient, let it rest for a 5 days, up to 70 for a day or 2 for D-rest, and then crash cool to 33F for 2-3 days before kegging.

I know the consensus is 64-68-64, but do you think this method of raising the temp for a short D-rest and then dropping to crash cooling temps will give a similar effect? KingBrianI's ESB was fantastic the first time using S-04, and that was done by letting the beer ride on the yeast for 6 weeks, it will be very interesting to try it with the shortened fermentation schedule!

Thank you to all who have provided in depth information into British style yeasts and fermentation experiences!

D_Ranged_Eskimo said:

Wow, finally got through this whole thread, and just in time. I brewed KingBrianI's Common Room ESB on Sunday and have it split between 1968 and S-04. They are both chugging away in their respective carboys at 59F ambient. I'm going to start bringing the temp up by 3 degrees a day until I hit 68 ambient, let it rest for a 5 days, up to 70 for a day or 2 for D-rest, and then crash cool to 33F for 2-3 days before kegging.

I know the consensus is 64-68-64, but do you think this method of raising the temp for a short D-rest and then dropping to crash cooling temps will give a similar effect? KingBrianI's ESB was fantastic the first time using S-04, and that was done by letting the beer ride on the yeast for 6 weeks, it will be very interesting to try it with the shortened fermentation schedule!

Thank you to all who have provided in depth information into British style yeasts and fermentation experiences!

Click to expand...

Be sure to let us know how it works for you on your latest batch of Common Room. I'd suggest tasting the beer before the diacetyl rest to see whether it really needs it or not. You may be happy with it without the rest and may lock in more flavor by crash cooling then.

As an aside, I've brewed my Common Room with many different yeasts and have liked the results from 1968 the most. I think you'll find your 1968 carboy even better than the s-04 carboy, but please report back with your findings.

Glad to hear the 1968 turned out so well. Full disclosure, I've never been over the pond to try the real deal, so my knowledge is lacking, but it will be interesting to see the difference from the first Common Room.

The next time this is brewed, it will be with 1318. With the amount of positive responses and personal experience with an APA, it seems it would really compliment your ESB KingBrianI.

I'll update in a week and a half when it's time to rack over and hopefully have a photo to go along with it.

Does anyone have experience repitching wy1968? I have a 1.064 pale ale fermented with a second generation pitch that I'm about to keg. I was thinking about harvesting the yeast to brew with this weekend. Has anyone gone that high gravity with wy1968 and successfully repitched? Did you get decent results? Did it still taste and behave like wy1968 (malty, low(ish) attenuation*, super flocculent)?

*1968 always hits 75-80% attenuation for me

I just pitched WLP 002 (same as 1968 supposedly) into a 1.077 English IPA. Not technically a repitch, but grown from a slant. It was a split batch with WY1318. I pitched on 28 June low at 63F and set the ferm chamber for 66F, letting it rise naturally. I would normally set for 68, but since I split the batch and had 2 ferementers in there, I took the temp from the ambient air as opposed to taping the sensor to the side of a fermenter. Cautioning on the low side a degree or 2 seemed the thing to do in this circumstance.

1 July the 002 was 1.035, the 1318 was 1.040. I set the chamber for 64.
5 July the 002 was 1.020, the 1318 was 1.026. I set the chamber for 68.

Right now, the 002 is definetly the more flocculant of the two. Seems like it'll be clear in no time, as I have found in the past. It is malty up front, with some minor fruityness on the back end that goes away with the swallow. It is mildly harsh bitterness-wise, with a little 'hot'ness. It is very subtle on the nose as far as yeast/hop aroma goes. So far it looks like I am in the low 70's for attenuation. Which is low for me, I usually over attenuate with most strains, and this one ion the past. I do expect it to drop a few more points.

Once the bitterness subsides, and that little hotness mellows, it should be a very nice balanced,clean beer.

For the record, the 1318 in this batch is smoooooth. No harshness at all. It is also malty up front, but the fruitiness hits sooner, tastes noticeably bigger, and lingers a bit longer. It is also fruity on the nose.

I am kind of disapointed actually on the hop character displayed, that is, very little. That comment is for both. I am dry hopping these, so hopefully it'll pick them up a bit. This is what my water looked like. I did try to treat it, used the Brun Water spreadsheet. Any errors are of course mine. I meant to have some distilled on hand to build proper, but that was failure #1 of many that day.

Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Sodium (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Chloride (ppm) Bicarbonate (ppm) Cations (meq/L) Anions (meq/L) Total Hardness

158.9 0.0 72.3 294.9 63.8 191.9 11.1 11.1 397

Here was the recipe:

Boil Size: 5.97 gal
Post Boil Volume: 5.20 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.073 SG
Estimated Color: 8.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 52.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.0 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs Pale Malt, Golden Promise (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.7 %
6 lbs Pale Malt, Marris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 44.7 %
1 lbs 1.0 oz Carastan, Light (15.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.9 %
6.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.8 %
1.00 oz First Gold [3.30 %] - First Wort 90.0 mi Hop 5 13.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] - First Wor Hop 6 23.5 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
1.00 oz First Gold [3.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 5.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent pellets [5.80 %] - B Hop 9 9.9 IBUs
1.00 oz First Gold [3.30 %] - Aroma Steep 30.0 m Hop 10 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.80 %] - Aroma Ste Hop 11 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg English Ale WLP002 (White Labs #WLP002) Yeast 12 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 13 lbs 7.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 16.79 qt of water at 163.7 F 152.0 F 60 min

Sparge: Batch sparge with 2 steps (0.40gal, 2.99gal) of 168.0 F water

To be clear, I'm wondering about repitching the wy1968 from the 1.064 beer into a 1.035 bitter. I'm hoping it ferments out ok and hasn't changed too much. In a low grav beer, it will suck if it decides to ferment out super clean to 85%. I normally would buy a new pack of yeast but i won't get a chance to go to the LHBS before brewing so its either re-use the 1968 or break into the nottingham, s-04 or us-05 packs I have in the fridge for emergencies.

...the 1.064 beer is a golden promise/EKG smash(english ipa?) with 6oz of 6.5%AA EKG split between FW, 45, 30, 15 and 2oz at 0. It fermented down to 1.012 in 4 days at 65F ambient temp. I kegged it last night and its nice...really malty, the 7% alcohol is barely perceivable, there is a good amount of bitterness but the hops aren't nearly as prominent as I would have thought. ...and I collected 2 mason jars full of clean yeast for the weekend if i decide to go that way.

Generally on repitching you go to an identical beer or up in flavor 'intensity' and/or gravity. Not down. Read an article in BYO about it yesterday, actually. However the article, at the end, states you can go back a 'level', but it is a small gravity change with a similar style. I.e. from a dry stout (1.045) to a robust porter (1.053), to a brown porter (1.046). Based on the articles suggested schemes for repitching, it seems you can go backwards up to around 7-8 points. Not that BYO is the final word or anything, and I have yet to hear an explanatio as to why.

i know this is a yeast thread (amazing source of info) but seems to be a pretty definitive bitter thread on here as well

i have little experience with english hops so hoping for some feedback on a special bitter hop schedule - looking for balance between hops and malt, def want to notice the hops but would prefer the malt to shine through a bit more. keep going back and forth on whether or not the additions should be 1/4 or 1/2 of each hop for each addition. thanks

OG 1.045
IBU 32
WY1968 (following 64-68-cold crash schedule)
mash temp 154: 90min

6 lbs 8.0 oz Maris Otter (4.0 SRM) 81.9 %
12.0 oz UK Crystal, Medium (55.0 SRM) 9.4 %
5.0 oz Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM) 3.9 %
6.0 oz Turbinado (10.0 SRM) 4.7 %

0.80 oz Challenger [7.20 %] - Boil 60.0 min 24.0 IBUs
0.25 oz Challenger [7.20 %] - Boil 20.0 min 4.5 IBUs
0.25 oz EK Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 20.0 Hop 3.4 IBUs
0.25 oz Challenger [7.20 %] - Boil 0.0 mi Hop 0.0 IBUs
0.25 oz EK Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 0.0min Hop 0.0 IBUs

Personally, I wouldn't push the IBUs any higher than they already are. If you want ti increase the other hop additions, decrease the 60 minute addition. Unfortunately, it all falls to personal preference, and some people like their bitters with different balance. Whatever you decide, you can always rebrew it differently if it's not perfect yet

I would def scale back the 60min addition and possibly move the 20min addition up to 15 I just have no idea how much flavor /aroma to expect from these hop varieties

gbx said:

To be clear, I'm wondering about repitching the wy1968 from the 1.064 beer into a 1.035 bitter. I'm hoping it ferments out ok and hasn't changed too much. In a low grav beer, it will suck if it decides to ferment out super clean to 85%. I normally would buy a new pack of yeast but i won't get a chance to go to the LHBS before brewing so its either re-use the 1968 or break into the nottingham, s-04 or us-05 packs I have in the fridge for emergencies.

...the 1.064 beer is a golden promise/EKG smash(english ipa?) with 6oz of 6.5%AA EKG split between FW, 45, 30, 15 and 2oz at 0. It fermented down to 1.012 in 4 days at 65F ambient temp. I kegged it last night and its nice...really malty, the 7% alcohol is barely perceivable, there is a good amount of bitterness but the hops aren't nearly as prominent as I would have thought. ...and I collected 2 mason jars full of clean yeast for the weekend if i decide to go that way.

Click to expand...

I brewed a 1.037 mild with the yeast from the 1.064 SMaSH (harvested from the bottom of a primary only ferment) It turned out really nice but...it definitely isn't the same wy1968 it was a couple pitches ago. It didn't floc out nearly as well and not near as malty. It is still malty but not the same...its almost like Danstar Windsor in terms of malt profile and flocculation - when i first kegged it there were dusty bits of yeast in the head and it had a musty yeast taste I get from Windsor fermented beers rather than the bready yeast taste i get from wy1968 when try hydrometer samples. Its been in the keg fridge for 4 days now and its clearing nicely but not crystal clear right out of the carboy that I get from fresh pitches of 1968.

Are you washing the yeast, or just pitching on the cake? You might be unintentionally selecting for lower flocculating yeast, and/or overpitching. I don't have all the details of your process, just asking questions, so if you're doing neither, someone else might have some ideas with that strain.

poley said:

Are you washing the yeast, or just pitching on the cake? You might be unintentionally selecting for lower flocculating yeast, and/or overpitching. I don't have all the details of your process, just asking questions, so if you're doing neither, someone else might have some ideas with that strain.

Click to expand...

I did a primary only ferment in a carboy. I kegged on day 10, sanitized the mouth of the carboy, swished the last bit of beer around to stir up the cake and then poured it into mason jars. I put the mason jars in the fridge until the yeast cake had settled again, poured the beer off and replaced with boiled and chilled water and swirled it all up again. 4 days later when I brewed, I took the jars out of the fridge, dumped the water off, replaced with a bit more pre-boiled water, swirled around to break up the cake and dumped it in the fermenter. I used the pitching rate calc to approximate how much I needed.

In the past, I've tried to top crop 1968 but haven't had much luck with it. It doesn't leave the big floaty krausen something like 1318 does. 1968 is a strain that seems to mutate very fast and I think the >6.5% ABV beer would have had a greater impact on the repitch than the process. Any thoughts? Maybe its a multistrain? I wonder if you had a conical if you could harvest the early flocc'ers and get it back to the way it was. ...I have since retired that pitch and bought a fresh smack pack for my last brew.

Ok guys. I've read through most of the thread and skimmed the rest. Here is my situation. I am currently fermenting a Northern English Brown using WLP007. It was recommended by the staff at NB-Milwaukee. I'm going for a traditional northern brown, with a hint of esters, but mainly malty nuttiness. I brewed Friday night. Chilled to 65. Oxygenated with pure O2 for 90 seconds. Pitched a 2L starter. Placed bucket in my chilly brew room with a comforter wrapped around it. The next day it was hanging around 64.5 and active so I opened the cover for an open fermentation. Krausen was small, but I skimmed what I could and carefully stirred in the yeast.... Man is that stuff chunky. By Sunday morning the temp was up to 68 and the brew was rolling, but the krausen was all but gone, so I put the cover & airlock back on. Monday temp was down to 63. (My brew room sits at 58-60 in the winter.) Since my swamp cooler and fish tank heater are currently occupied with a Hefe, I went to the store and got another heater to fashion a second swamp cooler. My issue is this.... When I put the fermenter in the swamp I did a gravity reading and it was at 1.016 or 1.018... I can't remember which, but the sample was ridiculously fruity. A taste that I know most in this thread are striving for, but I am looking for barely noticeable and in style for a northern brown. Diacetyl was minimal to none. I turned the heater on to about 68, and will check to see where my brew lies at lunchtime. What is my best plan of action? I keg, can crash cool in my keezer and can filter if I need to. This is going to a contest and my entry needs to be in the bottle & ready by feb 2nd for a feb 13-16 judging. The malt profile in my sample was great, and the hopping was right on, but the esters were overwhelming. I know it is super young, and I expect it to finish in the next few days dropping 2-8 more points. I mashed at 155 at 1.4 qt/lb and by 1/2 hour temp dipped to 152. I infused 2 L of boiling water to bring temp up to 156-157 and at the end of my hour temp was at 154. OG for 5.6 gal batch was at 1.049. I'm not sure what to expect for attenuation with my mash profile... But I'm guessing a FG of 1.013 or 1.014. Suggestions or experiences with 007 would be appreciated. Thanks!

I never used 007 before but it seems like you did a number of things to limit ester production. It's still young so maybe just time? I think with NEB you can be a bit short on carbonation if you need to bottle before the end of the week or next to mellow those esters out. I assume you are bottle conditioning and not bottling from a keg. Good luck at Midwinter, I'm still debating my stout - haven't tried it yet!

14thstreet said:

I never used 007 before but it seems like you did a number of things to limit ester production. It's still young so maybe just time? I think with NEB you can be a bit short on carbonation if you need to bottle before the end of the week or next to mellow those esters out. I assume you are bottle conditioning and not bottling from a keg. Good luck at Midwinter, I'm still debating my stout - haven't tried it yet!

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I was planning on bottling from keg, the last few times I bottled a few and kegged the rest I got those gushers. I think my coopers carb drops may be a source of contamination. If I can keg by the 27th I can get it carbed up in time to bottle a few on the 1st and drop off for midwinter on the 2nd. Should I just let it ride on the warm yeast for a few days then crash & keg? I did try for a clean ferment profile... Except for my open fermentation time. I want clean & complex.

You've got nothing to lose as the beer is only 4-5 days old.

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I should have listened to bierhaus15 back in post #2 re: wy1968 and bottling, but I guess some lessons have to be learned the hard way. I made Common Room ESB with 1968 a couple months ago and when I bottled it tasted fantastic. Like, one-of-the-best-beers-I've-ever-brewed fantastic. After conditioning for ~3 weeks the beer had lost some of it's malt character and it had a very slight cider taste (which has started to mellow after a couple more weeks).

Anyway, I'm not set up to keg so can someone recommend a strain I should try in place of wy1968? I've seen positive comments about wy1318 so I'm leaning toward that at the moment. My plan is to use it mostly in English and American pale ales. Thanks!

Has anyone experienced the above issue naturally carbing a keg with 1968?