Spa Panel hookup

So i am going to pull the trigger and start getting my EBIAB setup going. Just to make sure my thinking is correct I plan to use my 240/30a Dryer outlet I am using this http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...&keyword=spa+panel&storeId=10051#.US5MJfIiW20 spa panel. From reading if i wire a dryer plug to it and plug it in I should be good to go. Using this post as reference.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/spa-panel-wiring-dummies-266751/

Also would this cord work http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202647860&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&ci_sku=202647860&ci_kw={keyword}&kwd={keyword}&cm_mmc=shopping-_-googleads-_-pla-_-202647860&ci_gpa=pla#.US5YQ_IiW20

What do you need the Disconnect for? That type of GFCI is not designed for personal protection but to protect equipment and will not protect from electric shock. Only 120 volt GFCIs provide personal protection and they even make 120 volt GFCI breakers that are designed to only protect equipment.

I was going off of the Diagram and links that was in the diagram. As for why it is 3 prong dryer outlets do not have a true ground which under my understanding is why I am using the spa panel.

RayHomeBrewer said:

What do you need the Disconnect for? That type of GFCI is not designed for personal protection but to protect equipment and will not protect from electric shock. Only 120 volt GFCIs provide personal protection and they even make 120 volt GFCI breakers that are designed to only protect equipment.

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So you are suggesting that a GFCI intended to be used in an application where people are sitting in a hot tub is not designed to trip fast enough to protect said people? Or that an application where a 240v element is immersed in liquid should go without a GFCI?

As far as I know, this a suitable GFCI for the application. I would suggest to the OP that if you are planning to use the 3 wires in / 4 wires out configuration that you read this thread also.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-wire-240v-spa-panel-4-wire-out-again-372667/

jeffmeh said:

So you are suggesting that a GFCI intended to be used in an application where people are sitting in a hot tub is not designed to trip fast enough to protect said people? Or that an application where a 240v element is immersed in liquid should go without a GFCI?

As far as I know, this a suitable GFCI for the application. I would suggest to the OP that if you are planning to use the 3 wires in / 4 wires out configuration that you read this thread also.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/3-wire-240v-spa-panel-4-wire-out-again-372667/

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Yes, hot tubs have internal GFCI protection for personal protection.

You said "240v element is immersed in liquid should go without a GFCI?"

If you have a hot water tank and copper pipes you bath in water that is in contact with a 240v element is immersed in liquid every time you take a bath.

A 240 volt GFCI will not protect you from electric shock.

mrshaund said:

I was going off of the Diagram and links that was in the diagram. As for why it is 3 prong dryer outlets do not have a true ground which under my understanding is why I am using the spa panel.

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Depends if the dryer wiring was done before of after the 1996 National Electrical code. Before 1996 the ground and neutral wire were combined into one conductor. The 3rd wire being classified as a "current carrying conductor" had to be insulated. This is why you do not see the three wire dryers wired with 10-2 Romex as it has a bare ground wire. Many times when you open up an old 3 wire dryer outlet you find the ground wire was just tucked away or cut off and you can replace the 3 wire plug with a 4 wire one with the existing 10-3 Romex. I would caution to make sure the ground wife is full size as in the 50s and 60s they used a much lower gauge ground wire, and to be sure it was connected in the panel.

RayHomeBrewer said:

Yes, hot tubs have internal GFCI protection for personal protection.

You said "240v element is immersed in liquid should go without a GFCI?"

If you have a hot water tank and copper pipes you bath in water that is in contact with a 240v element is immersed in liquid every time you take a bath.

A 240 volt GFCI will not protect you from electric shock.

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If you are correct, then there are many e-brewers who are under the mistaken impression that their 240v GFCIs are affording them some protection.

So if I have a 240v GFCI with 5 milliamps sensitivity, why will it not protect me from electric shock?

I did not mean to start anything on here, I was just looking for a feasible way to power a 1 kettle ebiab setup and from what I have read anytime I have an electrician come in to do the outlet they are required to rewire and if it comes down to it then fine. I just figured there were alot of people brewing using a spa panel so I figured it was not to horrible an idea.

jeffmeh said:

If you are correct, then there are many e-brewers who are under the mistaken impression that their 240v GFCIs are affording them some protection.

So if I have a 240v GFCI with 5 milliamps sensitivity, why will it not protect me from electric shock?

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There is a lot of misunderstanding about GFCIs among electricians too I guess is my best answer. I did a 2000 amp service and the NEC says I have to use a GFCI main to protect the service. That does not mean I don't need to GFCI protect outlets in bathrooms etc.

I hear people talk about short circuiting a 120 volt circuit when that is impossible as the only way to short circuit something is line line to line. If you go from line to ground that is a fault not a short circuit.

RayHomeBrewer said:

There is a lot of misunderstanding about GFCIs among electricians too I guess is my best answer. I did a 2000 amp service and the NEC says I have to use a GFCI main to protect the service. That does not mean I don't need to GFCI protect outlets in bathrooms etc.

I hear people talk about short circuiting a 120 volt circuit when that is impossible as the only way to short circuit something is line line to line. If you go from line to ground that is a fault not a short circuit.

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With all due respect, you did not answer my question. You maintained that a 240v GFCI will not protect person, but only protect equipment. That contradicts the collective wisdom of this board. I know that there are some 240v GFCIs that will not trip fast enough to necessarily save one's life, but that does not mean it is so for every 240v GFCI. I am open to the possibility that you are correct, but you need to explain the logic behind your statement. So again, why would a 240v GFCI with 5 milliamp sensitivity not protect one from electric shock?

jeffmeh said:

With all due respect, you did not answer my question. You maintained that a 240v GFCI will not protect person, but only protect equipment. That contradicts the collective wisdom of this board. I know that there are some 240v GFCIs that will not trip fast enough to necessarily save one's life, but that does not mean it is so for every 240v GFCI. I am open to the possibility that you are correct, but you need to explain the logic behind your statement. So again, why would a 240v GFCI with 5 milliamp sensitivity not protect one from electric shock?

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It is not rated to protect personnel so you would have to direct such a question at a manufacturer.

RayHomeBrewer said:

What do you need the Disconnect for? That type of GFCI is not designed for personal protection but to protect equipment and will not protect from electric shock. Only 120 volt GFCIs provide personal protection and they even make 120 volt GFCI breakers that are designed to only protect equipment.

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That is ABSOLUTELY WRONG. You need to do some research.

RayHomeBrewer said:

It is not rated to protect personnel so you would have to direct such a question at a manufacturer.

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Where are you getting this from? All GFCI's ive seen, SPA panel or otherwise that are UL listed are under UL 943 (http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=0943.html)

1.1 This Standard applies to Class A, single- and three-phase, ground-fault circuit-interrupters intended for protection of personnel, for use only in grounded neutral systems in accordance with the National Electrical Code (NEC), ANSI/NFPA 70, the Canadian Electrical Code, C22.1 (CEC), and Electrical Installations (Use), NOM-001-SEDE. These devices are intended for use on alternating current (AC) circuits of 120 V, 208Y/120 V, 120/240 V, 127 V, or 220Y/127 V, 60 Hz circuits.Note: In Canada, the text "intended for protection of personnel" is excluded.

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You can argue the "protection of personnel aspect", but they are certified to the same standard as the receptacles.

The idea that a 6mA ground fault detection is to protect the equipment is crazy.... While some hot tubs may have internal protection, they do not all. A 240V Class A GFCI will protect you just as well as a 120V one will... What makes you think otherwise?

RayHomeBrewer said:

It is not rated to protect personnel so you would have to direct such a question at a manufacturer.

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If it's rated to trip at 5 milliamp within 25 milliseconds then it is rated to protect personnel. Such 240v GFCIs exist. You are incorrect in your original statement.

Just trying to help sorry, I have been a Master Electrician for over 20 years if you want to think the misuse of a product is a good idea have at it.

AllanMar said:

Where are you getting this from? All GFCI's ive seen, SPA panel or otherwise that are UL listed are under UL 943 (http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/scopes.asp?fn=0943.html)



You can argue the "protection of personnel aspect", but they are certified to the same standard as the receptacles.

The idea that a 6mA ground fault detection is to protect the equipment is crazy.... While some hot tubs may have internal protection, they do not all. A 240V Class A GFCI will protect you just as well as a 120V one will... What makes you think otherwise?

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Listing and labeling, if it is not listed for a use it is not meant for that use.

I will drop it, you are right to misuse a product and think it will protect you. :fro::fro:

RayHomeBrewer said:

Listing and labeling, if it is not listed for a use it is not meant for that use.

I will drop it, you are right to misuse a product and think it will protect you. :fro::fro:

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Exactly my point, these GFCI's are UL 943 listed as Class A GFCI's. Which makes them listed for this use for personnel protection under the NEC. Please don't drop it if you are correct, but please do provide some supporting details.

I believe your thinking of GFEP (Ground Fault Equipment Protectors), which would be used in an industrial environment (30-50mA trip current) and your not going to find at Home Depot.

Shoot, a bit late to this one but, for the record, GFI in general terms doesn't protect you in any way, shape, or form from getting a shock. GFI does, however, greatly reduce the likelihood you'll be electrocuted.

whoaru99 said:

Shoot, a bit late to this one but, for the record, GFI in general terms doesn't protect you in any way, shape, or form from getting a shock. GFI does, however, greatly reduce the likelihood you'll be electrocuted.

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Yep, every time I wrote it I thought I should write [fatal or debilitating] electric shock.

whoaru99 said:

Shoot, a bit late to this one but, for the record, GFI in general terms doesn't protect you in any way, shape, or form from getting a shock. GFI does, however, greatly reduce the likelihood you'll be electrocuted.

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Ok, while technically correct. Come on.... Now were getting a bit too picky on word choice.

Commonly accepted in most studies ive read is 1-5mA is the threshold for perception of electric shock, 6-10mA being the threshold for perception of pain. Actual fatal electrocution has been found to be much higher, although people like to quote 6mA can kill you (and perhaps it may passing directly across your heart, although again, getting a bit specific). Do we really think we would design the safety device at the threshold for fatal electrocution?

If we want to be technical, I would argue GFCIs can in SOME way, shape or form protect you from electric shock as in most cases the GFCI's trip before YOU are the path. Especially in the case of use around water, the fault that would cause a situation that would allow you to come in contact with live power is enough to trip the GFCI before you actually come in contact with it.

My point here was with the statement originally that a 240V Class A GFCI breaker meant for hot tub/spa protection will not protect you as well as a 115V Class A GFCI receptacle installed is most peoples bathrooms will is incorrect. Not to say that GFCI's are the best protection, or that if you have one you should forgo all other precautions.

Now we're getting a bit off topic though, I just felt that the statement that these 240V GFCI's provide no protection needed to be corrected and was to the original topic and may mislead people.

Picky? I prefer accurate.

EDIT: I'm going to drop this, getting too off topic