Brewing Extract, without nuking the Extract.

1. When I first started brewing, I picked up a kit from my LHBS, and followed the directions and ended up with beer. I thought the beer tasted okay, but it was very dark and ugly, for an IPA. This had me scrambling for answers, most of which led me here to homebrewtalk.com

2. I wanted to know how to make better looking beer. I saw a trend, in adding the extract later in the boil. The reason given was simple, the longer sugar is boiled, the darker it gets, and less cooked it tastes. Over the next few batches, I added the majority of the extract, at the end of the boil, which is often referred to as Flameout. Since then, I have noticed a dramatically better increase, in the appearance of my beer. I still add a small amount of extract, at the beginning of the boil, but always have the flame off, when adding extract.

3. There are many other factor's, that may attribute to better looking beer. For example:

A) How fresh is the liquid extract you are purchasing? -Even with full boils, a light liquid extract, thats been sitting on a shelf, in a container for a couple weeks, leads to a poor looking beer, in my experience. Many brew shops, pre pour common amounts needed for a recipe.

B) Are you able to stir in the extract, well enough to not clump up? -If the extract, is not properly mixed, it may fall to the bottom and scorch the extract, leading to an unpleasant cooked taste. Again, I always turn the flame off, before adding any extract, and steadily pour out a constant amount, while stirring it vigorously in a whirlpool.

C) Are you able to cool the wort down quick enough, to get a cold break? -I started out with ice baths, and after almost dropping 6 gallons of hot wort, lugging it to my ice bath, I said never again and bought a copper immersion chiller. What took an ice bath four hours to cool, now takes an immersion chiller 15-25 mins, to cool properly. And a lot less work, I should mention...

These are some things to think about, when getting serious about brewing.

4. Feel free, to share any questions, comments, or suggestions to this thread. As I'm attempting to edit, my absurdly drunken grammar mistakes, and make this more comprehendible to the new brewers, whom this is meant to help...

5. These Pictures are of two different recipes, but both are IPA's and should look similar in color. I thought, I'd share a pic, from my first home brew, to my most recent. You can tell how dark the beer in the first picture is, and in the last picture, see the improvements.

Making sure to stir the extract in well is also important to avoid scorching, which will darken the worth.
For lighter beers, i also add in some corn sugar to lighten it.
Also, i definitely recommend everyone use whirfloc for clarity.
I did all of this for a recent extract pale ale and it turned out very nice looking. Definitely better in appearance than all my previous beers

inflictor-of-grimness said:

Making sure to stir the extract in well is also important to avoid scorching, which will darken the worth.

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Thanks for adding to the thread... Very true, I forgot to add that, I completely shut-off the flame, before adding any extract dry or liquid. And yes, Whirlfloc / irish moss, work miracles for clearing beer. I also cold crash, a couple days prior, to transferring the beer.

Hi there. When you say flame out, do you mean after you have boiled the hops and right before you intend to cool the wort? Or in between when you steep the specialty grains and bring it up to a boil for the hops.

I guess my question is when specifically is flame out?

xxcommxx said:

Hi there. When you say flame out, do you mean after you have boiled the hops and right before you intend to cool the wort? Or in between when you steep the specialty grains and bring it up to a boil for the hops.

I guess my question is when specifically is flame out?

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It is when you turn off the burner at the very end of your boil, before cooling.

boydsbitchinbrews said:

It is when you turn off the burner at the very end of your boil, before cooling.

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That makes sense. But why do most kits have you put the malt extract in and then bring it to a boil to cook the hops? The kit I have is the following:

1-steep specialty grains for 30 minutes
2- remove grains and bring to a boil
3-cut the heat and then pour in lme, stir
4-bring back to a boil and add hops for an hour
5-flame out
6-rapidly chill wort

So are you saying its ok to do the following:

1-steep specialty grains for 30 minutes then remove grains
2-bring to a boil and add hops for an hour
3-flame out
4-add lme
5-rapidly chill wort

Obviously I am new to brewing but will it make a big difference if I do the latter?

Thanks for your help

Most kits a) give crappy advice, and b) try to simplify things for beginners.

You need some extract in the beginning to help with hop utilization. I don't have my brewing software out to get an exact amount but if you put half of it in at the beginning, you'll have more than enough. If you are using software to make your recipes, you want a boil gravity greater than 1.035 I think it is.

OK, on my PC now and not the cell phone Much easier to communicate this way. If you are boiling 2 liters, adding 7 oz of dry extract hits a boil gravity of 1.036. If it's liquid extract in 2 liters of water, 8 oz puts you at 1.034.

This should be your process:

1-steep specialty grains for 30 minutes then remove grains
2-add 8 oz LME, stir VERY VERY VERY VERY well
3-bring to a boil and add hops for an hour
4-flame out
5-add ramaining lme, stir very well again
6-rapidly chill wort

Edit: Well I seem to have really gotten my posts confused This definitely isn't the one with the 2 liter brew. For a 5 gallon batch, assuming you are boiling 6.5 gallons, you'll want to boil about 6 pounds of extract.

inflictor-of-grimness said:

Making sure to stir the extract in well is also important to avoid scorching, which will darken the worth.
For lighter beers, i also add in some corn sugar to lighten it.
Also, i definitely recommend everyone use whirfloc for clarity.
I did all of this for a recent extract pale ale and it turned out very nice looking. Definitely better in appearance than all my previous beers

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I would add that Whirlfloc isn't as necessary if you plan on dry-hopping, because you'll lose some clarity from the hop sediment anyway.

drainbamage said:

I would add that Whirlfloc isn't as necessary if you plan on dry-hopping, because you'll lose some clarity from the hop sediment anyway.

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The pale ale I used it in turned out fairly clear, even with two ounces of dry hops. It definitely helps keep excessive yeast out of the bottles, and the majority of the hops as well. Whirfloc is a pretty inexpensive addition anyway.

xxcommxx said:

That makes sense. But why do most kits have you put the malt extract in and then bring it to a boil to cook the hops? The kit I have is the following:

1-steep specialty grains for 30 minutes
2- remove grains and bring to a boil
3-cut the heat and then pour in lme, stir
4-bring back to a boil and add hops for an hour
5-flame out
6-rapidly chill wort

So are you saying its ok to do the following:

1-steep specialty grains for 30 minutes then remove grains
2-bring to a boil and add hops for an hour
3-flame out
4-add lme
5-rapidly chill wort

Obviously I am new to brewing but will it make a big difference if I do the latter?

Thanks for your help

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Keep in mind if you alter the amount of extract added at the beginning of the boil you will alter your bitterness level from the hops. If the IBUs of the recipe are based on you adding all of the extract at the beginning but you decide to save some for flameout you may have a beer that is more bitter than what was intended. You could plug your ingredients into one of the free online calculators like Brewtoad so you can see you that by adding only half of the extract at the start of boil and the rest at flameout you will slightly raise your IBU levels.

drainbamage said:

I would add that Whirlfloc isn't as necessary if you plan on dry-hopping, because you'll lose some clarity from the hop sediment anyway.

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Agree with the loss of some clarity, but it's better to lose some clarity from a clearer beer than make a cloudy beer even worse. Why not get it as clear as possible before dry-hopping? I would still use the Whirfloc without question.

This is an interesting thread. When I was brewing extract, I had also shifted to adding more of the extract at the end, though I was using about 1/3 early and 2/3 with about 10 minutes remaining. I thought it was advantageous to boil all of the extract for at least a little while. If that's not the case, does it beg the question of what's the point of adding any of the extract at all prior to flameout? I mean why add a tiny bit up front to begin with?

Note that this is a serious question, even if it sounds like I"m being a smart-ass - that's not intended if so :fro:

psymonkey said:

Note that this is a serious question, even if it sounds like I"m being a smart-ass - that's not intended if so :fro:

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On my last extract batch, I made 5 gallons of Blonde Ale. As an experiment, I only boiled for 30 mins, and I added all the liquid malt extract, at flameout (0 mins), then performed a whirlpool/hop steep, for around 30 min. I didn't care too much about IBU's, was shooting for 40 ibu's.

I'd wait for an expert, to chime in, because I am not sure, if this is good brewing practice. I did it, just to try it. I got enough bitterness, out of the hops I added. I was attempting to make the lightest colored beer, I could possibly make. The beer, was meant for my Brother's barbeque, and Birthday party, which they finished it all, except for about a liter.

Here's a Picture, of the finished product.

Ok I love this idea of late additions but if you get better hop utilization do you still need to do a 60 minute boil? How do you calculate how much time you need for the hops?

cooldood said:

Ok I love this idea of late additions but if you get better hop utilization do you still need to do a 60 minute boil? How do you calculate how much time you need for the hops?

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You don't really get better hops utilization, at least not much. It's been recently discussed that IBUs aren't dependent on wort gravity. Break material may impact utilization, but again, not by much.

What I always recommend is using about a pound of extract for every gallon of water in the boil. This isn't exact, and can be a guestimate. I just find that the color and flavor is more like the comparable all-grain version of the beer if you do that.

So, if you've got a 3 gallon boil, and 6 pounds of extract, add 1/2 and 1/2 or so. I wouldn't measure it or worry about being exact, as close enough is just fine.

I think many extract brewers start with 2-3 gallons of wort and top up, and so starting with 2 pounds of extract at the beginning of the boil is very common.

You don't need any extract at all to get the hops oils to isomerize- you can get bittering without it- but the reading I've done seems to suggest that the quality of the bittering is better if at least some extract is boiled during the hops additions. I don't have a more definitive answer or opinion on that, so I just feel that a pound of extract per gallon boiled is about right.

You don't need to do a 60m boil to get enough hop utilization. You just need a lot of hops. Read about hop bursting. I like to make hoppy beers by hop bursting.

For my extract brews: while I steep the grains in one 8g pot @ 155F, I slowly warm up the extract in another 2g pot (in about 1g - 1.5g of water). I stir the extract vigourously and when the steep is done in the other pot, I remove the grain bag and combine the two pots and commence the boil. this technique has virtually eliminated all extract burn and has resulted in great brews.

@ jperry: That blonde looks good and light! Care to share the recipe? How's it taste?

PistolaPete said:

@ jperry: That blonde looks good and light! Care to share the recipe? How's it taste?

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It was pretty good, although I would add some cara/crystal malts, next time. It needs a little more flavor. I don't remember much from the brewday and my notes are very vague.

Full boil: 6.5 gal for 30 mins.
finished: 6 gal
O.G.: 1.040
F.G.: 1.010

6 lbs. Extract: Briess Extra Light/Light Malt Extract
6 oz. Dextrose

Hops:

30min 0.25oz Centennial
30min 0.25oz Simcoe
0min 1.75oz Centennial (steep 30min)
0min 1.75oz Simcoe (steep 30min)

Half a Whirlfloc tab
Safale US-05 @ 66-68*F

Any problems with DMS?

outside92129 said:

Any problems with DMS?

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I haven't had any, cooked/creamed corn flavor, in my late extract beers. It's possible that there was a trace amount, but, If it was noticeable, I'd be able to taste it... and I'd probably dump it all.

Wow, learn something new every day! After all the reading I did about extract brewing I never came across anything about adding most of the extract in at flame out. I'd be interested to hear more people's mileage with this idea. Or even better a "added extract in after steep grains vs added 1 lb per gal before the boil and the rest in at flameout" case

I've been doing late extract additions as well, and adding the extract after the pot is off the flame.

All the way off the flame!

I actually pick the thing up and set it on a trivet which is on the counter next to the stove. I used to just move it to another spot on the stove, but....

Sometimes when I pour in the extract, a little bit of wort splashes out of the pot. When it does this on the counter top it's a bit easier to clean-up afterward than when I splash a little on the stove.

Gunslinger711 said:

Wow, learn something new every day! After all the reading I did about extract brewing I never came across anything about adding most of the extract in at flame out. I'd be interested to hear more people's mileage with this idea. Or even better a "added extract in after steep grains vs added 1 lb per gal before the boil and the rest in at flameout" case

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I've started doing this with all of my brews. They are so light colored now and have great flavor.

Gunslinger711 said:

Wow, learn something new every day! After all the reading I did about extract brewing I never came across anything about adding most of the extract in at flame out. I'd be interested to hear more people's mileage with this idea. Or even better a "added extract in after steep grains vs added 1 lb per gal before the boil and the rest in at flameout" case

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Do a search. There are many threads on late extract addition.

Yooper said:

What I always recommend is using about a pound of extract for every gallon of water in the boil. This isn't exact, and can be a guestimate. I just find that the color and flavor is more like the comparable all-grain version of the beer if you do that.

So, if you've got a 3 gallon boil, and 6 pounds of extract, add 1/2 and 1/2 or so. I wouldn't measure it or worry about being exact, as close enough is just fine.

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This sounds like a pretty sound idea. When reading Brewing Classic Styles, they mentioned this issue specifically. They recommend that you make sure you are boiling at the same gravity as you would in a 7 gal boil (or whatever your preboil volume is).

For example, I recently did an all grain English Mild. The preboil gravity was supposed to be 1.028. If I wanted to convert this to a 3 gal partial boil, then you would have to do two things.

1. Calculate how many gravity points you would get from steeping.

2. Add enough DME to reach the preboil gravity.

3. Add the remaining DME around/after flame out.

This would be really easy to do with something like BrewTarget or ProMash. Just drop your gallons down to three and adjust your DME until you get that target boil gravity. MAKE SURE TO SAVE ANOTHER RECIPE BEFORE YOU EDIT


I could be completely wrong about this, but I think that the boil gravity will have an effect on melanoidin production (more concentrated wort vs less concentrated). Any thoughts on this?

So is the flameout specifically referring to LME? I've always heard that DME is usually at least around my area the "fresher" of the two versions of extract. Would the freshness of the extracts have anything to do with clarity? I'd also think that you'd need a bit of a boil to fully incorporate DME. Anyway just some thoughts.

outside92129 said:

Any problems with DMS?

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From my understanding, the process used to make the extract drives off the sulfur compounds, so DMS shouldn't be an issue when use LME.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that is the case.

Damoxemus said:

From my understanding, the process used to make the extract drives off the sulfur compounds, so DMS shouldn't be an issue when use LME.

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that is the case.

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Ive read that as well, its more of an issue with all grain and not LME or DME.

Also for the OP. Whats the max size of ur kettle. increasing the boil volume will help keep the beer lighter. I noticed a big difference when i stepped up from a 22qt pot to a 15.5 gallon keggle; the color was much lighter. Most stove tops can't get very large quanitiies of water to a rolling boil quickly so u may need to get an outside burner to do this. Another thing to also remember is if u step up the boil volume, its gonna take more to cool it down. When i upgraded to the keggles, i made sure to get a counter flow chiller. The upgrades to keggles with a Blichmann burner and the addition of the CFC guaranteed a great hot and cold break, which def helped with clarity and IMHO a better overall beer.

Also adding the extract late is a very common thing. ive read that its good to add some of the extract early on in the boil and then add the majority in the last 10-15 minutes just to pretty much sanitize it.

Also one more thing about "Freshness" with regards to extract. The more u read around here and in certain books you'll see that this isn't a very big issue anymore. most of the big name retailers for beer kits and beer supply go thru steady inventories. They are constantly being replaced by fresh product. Years ago, and you'll hear this from Palmer alot as well as a few others, the extract supplies were very old. Sitting on a shelf for a few years before being sold in a Mr Beer kit or in a LHBS. That was back when home brewing was just taking off. Nowadays there isn't much of a problem as it once was.

Pratzie said:

ive read that its good to add some of the extract early on in the boil and then add the majority in the last 10-15 minutes just to pretty much sanitize it.

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Sanitizing the LME/DME is the only concern I've heard about adding it late. One suggestion said add it at least 5 minutes before flame out, another said 15. Some of you are saying add it after flame out. On my last batch, I added half at 60 and half at 5 before flame out, sort of... I brew on my stove but my kettle spans 2 burners, but it still took awhile to get it back to a boil after adding LME, so the times were a bit screwy with all the heating up, then flame out to add LME, then heat back up to boil for 5 minutes... I assume LME is food grade (duh!), so it should be "clean" enough to add after flame out. I'll try that next time.

Long time reader, first time poster... Any thoughts on late DME additions? I have been doing any LME later in the boil, to avoid scorching but have been boiling DME the full time, waiting for a hot break to start the timers.

Jonbertsch said:

Long time reader, first time poster... Any thoughts on late DME additions? I have been doing any LME later in the boil, to avoid scorching but have been boiling DME the full time, waiting for a hot break to start the timers.

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Sure, DME too. Just whisk it in well, as it tends to clump.

for those worried about sanitation, you can certainly add at 15 or 5 minutes instead of flame out. Just keep in mind that even raw milk is pasteurized at 160 for 15 seconds and it's totally safe to give to your baby/children. I don't think DME or LME would have more pathogens than raw milk, but I don't have evidence to back it up. If you're adding it at flame out, the wort is around 209-212 degrees which is certainly adequate.

Awesome! Good points! Thanks again Yoop!

Keith66 said:

Sanitizing the LME/DME is the only concern I've heard about adding it late. One suggestion said add it at least 5 minutes before flame out, another said 15. Some of you are saying add it after flame out. On my last batch, I added half at 60 and half at 5 before flame out, sort of... I brew on my stove but my kettle spans 2 burners, but it still took awhile to get it back to a boil after adding LME, so the times were a bit screwy with all the heating up, then flame out to add LME, then heat back up to boil for 5 minutes... I assume LME is food grade (duh!), so it should be "clean" enough to add after flame out. I'll try that next time.

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I used to add my late additions within the final 15 minutes, but lately I've been doing it at flame out. I've had no issues whatsoever. And my beers have gotten even lighter.

For all the talk about the difficulty of brewing a truly light-colored beer with extract, I've been able to get some incredibly light-colored beers. I just about killed a batch of a hoppy cream ale that I brewed with Briess Pilsen LME (that's right....LIQUID extract), and it is as light as most commercial light lagers. We're talking bright yellow. The extract must have been super fresh. With some finings the beer looks gorgeous, and had a clean malt flavor.

You really just need to learn how to handle the ingredient, like anything else, and you can make some kickass beer with extract. Don't believe what some detractors say.

I have no desire to go all grain. I'm making good extract beers and trying to learn ways to improve them. Why complicate things and spend more money?

What affect, if any, would doing full boils have on late extract additions?

I'm only three batches in to brewing, all extract, and I'm pretty darn happy with what I've got so far, but I want to make the best batches possible. My previous boils have all started out with 5.5 gallons, then I have to top off to bring it back to five. I felt doing as close to full boils as possible from the start would be a good habit to get in to.

Doing full boils is better. I still do late boil additions with extract even with full boils. At 5.5 gallons in your boil you are really really close to a full boil. You just need to get up to 6 gallons.

Keith66 said:

I have no desire to go all grain. I'm making good extract beers and trying to learn ways to improve them. Why complicate things and spend more money?

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It's all a matter of preference. If you have the time, and truly enjoy the process, all-grain can be very enjoyable.

Personally I enjoy both processes. I love the simplicity of extract brewing. Once you learn how to handle the ingredient properly (and many do not, which is why it gets a bad rep) you can be very creative without needing to invest in so much time.

That being said, doing a mash is very rewarding. It also doesn't have to be so complicated. Reading about all-grainers who do all of these calculations, using tons of expensive equipment, and being super-meticulous, to the point of it being beyond overkill, can make doing a mash seem daunting. Believe me, it isn't. Brewing is easy. People make it complicated. It's fine if complicated is what they enjoy, but it isn't required to brew all-grain.