Oxidation

I'm not sure when I'm justified worrying about oxidation and when I should just relax. From what I understand, you're only in danger of oxidizing your brew if you splash hot wort, or if you splash after fermentation has begun.

And yet, I find myself timidly "rocking the baby" after I've pitched the yeast for fear of oxidizing, and I'm overly cautions not to blow bubbles when I rack to my secondary for the same reason.

When should I truly be worried about oxidizing?

Rock the baby all you want, if the airlock is still in you have only co2 mixing things up to roust the yeast. Serves them right for getting lazy and not doing their job.

Racking from your primary on the second floor to your secondary in the basement with an open air flow....
That might be a problem.

Err on the side of caution, if I see bubbles racking, I stop it and crank down the seals, but if primary fermentation is done, it is a small, possible issue. Don't ignore it, but don't freak about it.

Just relax....it take a lot of O2 to cause oxydation. Just breath, your beer is heartier than you're giving it credit for...

Just take proper percautions, have a good process, but do't be hyper sensative about it...

If the wort is at pitching temperatures you really don't need to worry about oxidation until after the fermentation.

I shake the bejesus out of my carboy to aerate before pitching yeast. The yeast need the O2 to help get going.

Until fermentation begins you don't have to worry about oxidation. The yeast need oxygen to begin the fermentation process so a wort with lots of oxygen is beneficial to the little yeasties. The effects of oxidation take so long to be noticable that even if it does happen your beer should all be gone by then anyhow RDWHAHB

I also shake vigorously after pitching the yeast.

If I need to rouse yeast in the primary, I give a pretty good shake, too. I do not worry about oxidation, as my primary is full of CO2.


TL

Adding to this oxidation subject..........How do you know for sure you have oxidized the beer? and I was also want to comment on the bubbles in the racking tube. I may be wrong but isn't your beer slightly carbonated in the primary and as you rack it off it should release that trapped CO2 in the tube and secondary?

Madcat100 said:

Adding to this oxidation subject..........How do you know for sure you have oxidized the beer?

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When you smell or taste oxidation. For a fairly young beer, that usually comes across as a papery or cardboard-like flavor or aroma. More often than note, you get it in the finish. Oxidation also tends to reduce malt character.

In older beers that have been exposed to far less oxygen, you can get nutty, sherry notes that do not compete with the malt and can be quite nice.


TL

TexLaw said:

I also shake vigorously after pitching the yeast.

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That'll be the over-excitement then?

Seriously though, how do you vigorously shake a 5 gallon primary without getting 6 of your friends to help?

GroovePuppy said:

Seriously though, how do you vigorously shake a 5 gallon primary without getting 6 of your friends to help?

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I giver' a bit'o huggin' and move to da' music. Of course, I grew up playing outside as well.

GroovePuppy said:

Seriously though, how do you vigorously shake a 5 gallon primary without getting 6 of your friends to help?

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I put a stopper and a dry airlock in the top, get down on the floor, steady it with my legs a bit, and rock it like I was at a Maiden concert. I usually do it in the kitchen, on a floormat, to avoid breaking anything, including my arse. When I'm done, I clean up the neck of the fermenter a bit with a StarSan soaked paper towel, insert a newly santized stopper and airlock, and put the baby to bed.


TL

(now, just how much of that is going to end up in quotes thread, out of context?)

I may be wrong but isn't your beer slightly carbonated in the primary and as you rack it off it should release that trapped CO2 in the tube and secondary?

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At this point the beer IS slightly carbonated, but most of the CO2 has escaped out of your airlock during fermentation, and the small amount still present is negligible and wouldn't be visible in the form of bubbles in your siphon hose. (At least it hasn't been in my experience.) The bubbles I was referring to in my original question (thanks for the replies!) were those resulting from a hiccuppy flow in the hose instead of a steady stream -- when those air pockets escaped the end of the hose, they blew bubbles in the beer.

Madcat100 said:

Adding to this oxidation subject..........How do you know for sure you have oxidized the beer? and I was also want to comment on the bubbles in the racking tube. I may be wrong but isn't your beer slightly carbonated in the primary and as you rack it off it should release that trapped CO2 in the tube and secondary?

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Trust me, you WILL know! It's easily the most unpleasant off-flavor I have ever tasted in beer, it makes it undrinkable IMHO. Picture taking a wet cereal box, then putting your nose in it and breathing...

got it?

Now picture that beer TASTING how that smells, totally gross. Wet cardboard, ugh. I had two beers do this, and I have never been able to find out what caused it.

GroovePuppy said:

Seriously though, how do you vigorously shake a 5 gallon primary without getting 6 of your friends to help?

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It's the only exercise I get, weight lifting while brewing. I also get a work out force carbing kegs. :rockin:
Its all fine until I get a bad cramp or mess up my back, I keep forgetting that I'm not that young any more.

Old thread bump, but I have a question. (all-grain brewer)

I've never experienced the wet cardboard phenomenon but it seems as if any beer I keep around for more than a few months develops sherry notes. Of course now that I'm on the lookout for the flavor it seems 10x worse.

Will avoiding HSA prevent this from happening? Or is HSA more directly linked to the fairly immediate wet cardboard problem than sherry notes a year later?

Since I noticed this I've become HSA paranoid and my new precautions add about 45 minutes to the brewing process.

Will going to OxyCaps (or similar) prevent the sherry phenomenon?

I don't have central air so I can't really brew after March. Any homebrews I have left in the fall tend to have varying levels of sherry notes.

I started off fine with all-grain brewing. Then I read an article about aeration and how that helps with fermentation, so I thought I would be clever and smack my wort into submission during the cooling process. BIG MISTAKE. I made 6 -8 batches and noticed a distinct 'papery' flavor for each one.

Word to the wise, any air in your wort prior to boiling will probably be eliminated in the boiling process. But, if you spank your wort before it is at pitching temp (below 86 F), it will be ruined. The beer will still be slightly drinkable but the malt character will vanish. You will be left with nothing more than aroma hops and alcohol. Lesson learned, aeration is great but DO NOTAERATE YOUR WORT ABOVE 80 F. Also, getting it off the trub early will help. Some folks let the wort settle for 24 hours then (using extremely persnickety sanitation techniques) rack off into a clean fermenter before pitching the yeast.

I promise to never spank my hot wort again.

Tim

I use a whisk to stir and aerate my wort as its cooling. I generally let it cool to around 110 before doing this, but definitely don't let it get down to 80 first.

I don't think I've ever had a problem with oxidation by doing this, as it sounds like the flavor would be pretty apparent. But I have had what could be described as a yeasty flavor in some of my brews, could I be mistaking oxidation for yeastiness?

I just want to clarify something that is being said more often, and that is that the yeast -needs- oxygen to start fermentation. According to Palmer (and science), yeast will start fermentation with -or- without oxygen, it will just take longer without. That's why it is vital to adequately aerate your pitched wort so that the yeast will within 24 hours start a healthy and strong fermentation that's not too fast and not too slow (either of the two can cause off flavors due to biproducts of the yeast, or cause the yeast to not start fermentation for many days). You also need to make sure you don't pitch the yeast into wort hotter than 80F, as that will result in what Palmar describes as a "cell division orgy" that will create way too many biproducts that will give off-tastes to your beer.

I use a whisk to stir and aerate my wort as its cooling. I generally let it cool to around 110 before doing this, but definitely don't let it get down to 80 first.

I don't think I've ever had a problem with oxidation by doing this, as it sounds like the flavor would be pretty apparent. But I have had what could be described as a yeasty flavor in some of my brews, could I be mistaking oxidation for yeastiness?

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As stated above, it's not advised to aerate the wort when it's not at pitching temp.

I read on these forums that Oxyclean can oxidize wort. How much are we talking about? I use it as a sanitizing agent and rinse thoroughly, but there could be some residual.

peilhauer said:

I read on these forums that Oxyclean can oxidize wort. How much are we talking about? I use it as a sanitizing agent and rinse thoroughly, but there could be some residual.

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?????????? You've not seen that on THESE forums.

I've never heard or seen that, that is pure unsubstantiated bs....

Oxyclean is a cleaner, and after you clean you have to rinse then sanitize, so oxclean isn't even touching your beer..

I run my wort (once cooled to about 70) through a sanitized strainer I got at my LHBS shop. It gets most of the trub out and I think also does a pretty good job aerating too. I still give it a few dumps back and forth to aerate (sanitary of course) just for good measure.

I've never heard about the oxyclean thing, that seems off to me... Plus I use oxyclean for cleaning, not for sanitizing.

peilhauer said:

I read on these forums that Oxyclean can oxidize wort. How much are we talking about? I use it as a sanitizing agent and rinse thoroughly, but there could be some residual.

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OxiClean is a cleaning agent. StarSan, among others, is a sanitizing agent. While I am not sure of the potential for oxidizing your beer you really shouldn't be using OxiClean to sanitize.

I'm just getting back into brewing after not doing it for a couple years and I'm making some rookie mistakes again.

I just racked to the secondary after 7 days of fermentation; when I racked I left the racking tube end near the top of the secondary, so the brew pretty much dropped the distance of the carboy, splashing around and likely airating it.

I remember looking at it and thinking "yeah, I"m doing something wrong here". The theory at first was if I kept the exterior of the tubing out of the brew I'd have less chance for contamination, but now I'm thinking it probably should have been near the bottom of the carboy to prevent oxidation.

Did I just ruin this brew?

Lambo3 said:

I'm just getting back into brewing after not doing it for a couple years and I'm making some rookie mistakes again.

I just racked to the secondary after 7 days of fermentation; when I racked I left the racking tube end near the top of the secondary, so the brew pretty much dropped the distance of the carboy, splashing around and likely airating it.

I remember looking at it and thinking "yeah, I"m doing something wrong here". The theory at first was if I kept the exterior of the tubing out of the brew I'd have less chance for contamination, but now I'm thinking it probably should have been near the bottom of the carboy to prevent oxidation.

Did I just ruin this brew?

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No, again it takes a helluva lot of o2 to ruin it, usually much more than the stupid mistakes we make on brewday...Your biggest mistake was racking your beer too soon...but even that won't ruin your beer. it just wouldn't be a good as it would be if you let it sit for 3-4 weeks in primary instead, or at least waited 2 weeks before racking.

Revvy said:

or at least waited 2 weeks before racking.

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Really? I always worked under the impression that you wanted to rack after the initial fermentation was finished, so you could get it off the sediment. SG was 1.020 (down from an OG of 1.050). So, its not quite done, but getting there.

Lambo3 said:

Really? I always worked under the impression that you wanted to rack after the initial fermentation was finished, so you could get it off the sediment. SG was 1.020 (down from an OG of 1.050). So, its not quite done, but getting there.

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There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;

How To Brew said:

Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

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John Palmer

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis.

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People have left it as much as six months. Autolysis is a myth for homebrewers.

Even when Palmer is talking about it, he's talking about it in terms of LAGERS not ales. Most people get so freaked out about in reading Palmer, that they don't notice it is in the Lager chapter, nor do they notice the caveat at the end of the section that I posted above.

I still believe that POSSIBLY autolysis WAS a concern to homebrewers 20-30 years ago, when the yeast came in dry cakes, of dubious heritage and came across from where homebrewing was legalized in the hot cargo holds of ships and may have sat for months in terrible conditioned...In other words was unhealthy to begin with.

And therefore may have crapped out and made for nastiness, (and also was prone to stick fermentation as well.) and tales of it just continued to perpetuate over time, even though yeasts are much more healthy and fresh, and more is understood about them nowaday....people gravitate to the negative and fear and still perpetuate those worries...over and over and over....

And I still maintain that as much as I like Palmer, he contributed to the hysteria.....I mean noone but me seems to notice that that section on the scary autolysis appears in the chapter on lagering. He is not talking about it with ales...or beers in general..just lagers..because flaws are more perceptable in lagers...since in essence most commercial lagers are tasteless...anything would stand out..

and I think most new brewers have crapped themselves at the mere thought long before the notice the closer to the section I mentioned earlier.

This is where the most up to date brewing wisdom and ideas can be found...In fact a lot of stuff has been started on here, and made it into byo or zymurgy or podcasts...in fact BYO DID a piece on no secondary/long primary, along with the BASIC BREWING PODCAST and even they said that there were no issues/harm with doing it and in some beers it did actually improve the flavor and clarity. And I believe that really WAS influenced by the discussion we have had for the last couple years on here.

And as to when to transfer to secondary. Start with reading the info here, including the two linked articles in there, then you can make up your OWN mind up about when to move, take a grav reading and how long to leave your beer where you choose to leave it.

But you will be informed enough to do so...you are basically getting half answers to whether or not to secondary...if you read this, you'll get the full picture.

But you'll find even with the different opinions at what point to rack, the agreement is not to rush it off the yeast cake any sooner that you can..more yeast time= cleaner beers.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/multiple-questions-about-secondary-fermentation-140978/#post1601829

you do have to give the yeast some time to clean up the combustion byproducts. strike that. i mean fermentation byproducts. personally, i give it 7-14 days primary then rack to a carboy for however long i wait until keg time.

mordantly said:

you do have to give the yeast some time to clean up the combustion byproducts. strike that. i mean fermentation byproducts. personally, i give it 7-14 days primary then rack to a carboy for however long i wait until keg time.

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YUp, if I do rack to secondary I wait 2 weeks. Then secondary for 2 weeks. But now having even dryhopped in primay the last 2 batches and they came out awesome, the reasons to secondary are getting few and far between.

Combustion byproducts...you're funny! :rockin:

last month, i trasferred 3 batches after 14 days straight to keg.. the only difference i found from my "standard" procedure was a greater ammount of yeasties to blow out.

read the next post

GroovePuppy said:

That'll be the over-excitement then?

Seriously though, how do you vigorously shake a 5 gallon primary without getting 6 of your friends to help?

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Tilt it to a balance point and rock it 5 to 10 degrees you will feel the liquid slosh. go with the flow of the slosh and let the momentum and inertia keep the rocking going with minimal energy input. Practice with water. Its like pushing someone on a swing if you push or (rock) to soon or to late you'll cancel the periodic motion of the wave motion created. Go with the flow and the wave will be amplified. Don't go over board or it might get away from you. if you have glass place a folded towel underneath to prevent cracking or breakage. Seal the top to prevent overflow but vent every so often to maximize O2, remember air is only a little less than 20 percent oxygen. With this method aeration can be accomplished with minimal effort and even with one hand tied behind ones back. remember work smart not hard.

How much is a helluva lot of O2? Because yesterday was my first bottling day, and I really mucked up starting my autosiphon and it let in what appeared to be two massive farts worth of air into the wart. I mean massive. All the O2 in the siphon, x2 because it did it again on my second pump. It's my first batch, and it has been my baby. I don't want my baby to be oxidized, and am slightly worried. Please console me.

I'm bottling my first brew today. I didn't know the importance of areation and only rocked my fermented for a minute more or less. What should I expect? Can you rock it days later?

I wanted to post this here because I think oxidation is the issue. So batch #2 was (key word "was") a northern english brown ale and batch #3 was a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone. Both were 2.5 gallon batches that ended up being closer to 2gal. The brown was in a 3 gal. carboy for primary and the SNPA was in a 5 gal. carboy for primary.

Both had great fermentation by appearance. I kept the light out and the temp good and steady. I decided no secondary for the brown so at two weeks out I wanted to take a gravity reading. I sanitized everything and drew some out. It tasted great and FG was good. Capped it back up and let it sit another week. When bottling day came I got everything out and ready. I opened it up and I could tell something was wrong by the smell. Tasted it. . . no real flavor just an alcohol presence. Knowing that it tasted right a week ago I figured it was ruined. Down the drain.

So feeling like I needed to do something (I gotta get better about that) I decided to rack the SNPA into the 3 gallon carboy as a secondary. I scrubbed and sanitized the 3 gal and made the transfer. Took a sample as well and it tasted great. Hop flavor and aroma very noticeable. After racking I realized there was a lot more headspace than I anticipated. I should have realized the simple math wouldn't work out. 2-2.5 gal in 3 gal carboy = too much headspace for secondary. I decided to just bottle it the next morning so I might be able to salvage something drinkable. Well when I opened it up after 12hrs. Same thing as the brown. I could tell it was off by the smell. Tasted it, no hop flavor or aroma, just alcohol-y presence. I've read the descriptions of all the off flavors but with no real experience tasting them I can't really describe what I'm tasting. I sanitize with iodine to the ppm that Palmer recommends. Could an infection set in over night or is oxidation the culprit? Pale ale down the drain too.

Oh Sam,Sam...
I think you pulled the dump switch too soon. Revvy started a thread a couple years ago about 'Never dumping your beer'. You should look for it and read through it.
Oxidation flavor wouldn't be apparent that soon, and I doubt infection would either. Unless you have floaters doing the backstroke, and sometimes even when you do, always carbonate and bottle(or keg) and let your beer sit for at least 3 weeks before deciding it's off. And then give it 6 months anyways before dumping. Precarbonated and conditioned beer always tastes different than it will when it's finally ready.

Jim thanks for the direction. I checked out Revvy's post. Now it seems so obvious I should have just waited. I'm still recovering from the idea that beer has to be made by professionals in laboratories with fancy and expensive equipment. I just assumed that I failed and I should just start over. I'm still wondering though, why would my pale ale taste so much different after transferring to a secondary? It really did taste good when I transferred and then really weird the next day after only 12hrs.

I don't know for sure, but here's my guess:
When you took the sample you drew off the top. Then you transferred it which of course mixes the beer pretty evenly. Would this make a difference? I don't know,but guess it could.