Roasty aftertaste in Red Ale

I've made two batches of a red ale that has been a staple for several years, that have had a rather strong roasted grain flavor. The recipe is:

2 lb munich light
4 lb two row
1 lb crystal 60
0.5 lb crystal 120
0.5 lb cara-pils

mashed at 155 for 60 minutes, mashed out at 168 and did a single batch sparge. The last sparge ran out at 1.013 sg for ~ 86% efficiency. I used carbon filtered city water with 5.2 ph stabilizer. Fermented with a starter of Rogue Packman at 65 degrees and finished at 1.014 sg.

Any ideas on this one? This has been my favorite beer for years and it just isn't turning out now. I'd appreciate any advice.

thanks,
Shane

I'm confused...what exactly isn't turning out about it?

Usually the easiest thing to to track back and see what has changed between the good batches and the bad batches...

It has a fairly strong roasted grain taste that wasn't in the batches from past years. It used to finish with a sweet malty flavor, but now it's a little astringent. I've been very careful to avoid over sparging, so I don't think that is the problem. I can't say anything has changed. It's really frustrating!

chew on some of the grains. Does any of them have a roasty flavor? Make sure the grain bill is really what you think it is

Is 1.014 where your ferment has finished out in the past? Pacman is a beast and may be fermenting out more of your sugars, leaving less residual to counter and soften any roastiness (probably from the 120). Residual sweetness really counterbalances roast in almost any beer. A dry finished beer with a roast malts tends towards a roast astringency. To counter this, you could try mashing a little higher.

That's a good point mk. or leave out the 120... that may be the issue right there.

It wouldn't be as red anymore if you left out the 120. Maybe use some Special B for color?

Yeah, I'd leave in the C120 -- that's what makes it a Red Ale. I'd just either mash higher or try a less attenuative yeast strain and see if that makes a difference. Only change one thing at a time, though -- otherwise, you won't be able to pinpoint cause & effect.

Also true, however Special B is rather roasty as well. might have to switch to a less aggressive yeast or crash it when it hits 1.018 ish.

You could sub C90 for the C120. That might cut back on the color in addition to the roastiness, but you could offset the color loss by subbing an extra pound of the Munich for one of the pounds of base malt. It'll be a different beer, not just less roasty, but it should have more of a German-lager type maltiness to it that I particularly like in a red ale.

I don't see C120 isn't an absolute requirement for a red ale, you can get that color by using a VERY small amount of roasted barley (so little that it imparts virtually no flavor) or even better, a Carafa Special (de-husked/de-bittered) dark malt.

Hmm this isn't adding up to me ... you used words like "astringent" so I'm wondering if something else is off, like your filtering process isn't removing Chloramine. I'd suggest taking your brew into Austin Homebrew and having them try to help you diagnose it. Or you could bring it by my house Sunday or come to the next Zealots roaming happy hour where multiple brewers could give you feedback.

It may be a stretch, but has your water changed from the previous brewings?

Sacc. I thought of that as well, but the filter is new and I used it on a Kolsch that turned out great. I will take it over to AHS, can't believe I hadn't thought of it since I live 2 blocks away. I've been trying to make some of the Zealot meetings, but with a 3 y/o it's been tough. I appreciate the invite.

What about your crush... could you maybe have over-crushed and are picking up some astringency from pulverized husks?

DSV said:

Sacc. I thought of that as well, but the filter is new and I used it on a Kolsch that turned out great. I will take it over to AHS, can't believe I hadn't thought of it since I live 2 blocks away. I've been trying to make some of the Zealot meetings, but with a 3 y/o it's been tough. I appreciate the invite.

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Yeah the guys over there are pretty good at giving you the feedback you need in a case like this. From your description I certainly don't have any good ideas.

I have to admit, this kind of surprises me.
Below is the recipe that I use currently for my red recipe that actually uses roasted barley, and the taste is always very smooth and not astringent at all.
I really think it is something other than your grain bill.
Temperature, yeast batch, change in your water supply, possible infection?
Best of luck, sudden changes like this would freak me out.
Just to add, I'm brewing this tomorrow just becuase it does not last long at all once kegged.
Man do I love this stuff.
82.0 % 10.00 American Two-row Pale
4.1 % 0.50 American Munich (Light)
4.1 % 0.50 CaraPils
4.1 % 0.50 American Crystal 60L
4.1 % 0.50 American Crystal 120L
1.6 % 0.20 American Roasted Barley

Well I got an answer from Austin Homebrew. They are really good guys, if you've not met them.

Short story is that the 5.2 Stabilizer is not strong enough to properly buffer Austin's water. The filter I used is fine, no off flavors in the fermentation department, just a slight tannin astringency. So the answer is buy a ph meter! My favorite, new equipment! Now why did everything work last year and the years before, I don't know. I'm chalking it up to the one thing I didn't test and it bit me in the A$$.

I appreciate all the help!

Your water profile could have changed - different well or something...

DSV said:

Short story is that the 5.2 Stabilizer is not strong enough to properly buffer Austin's water. The filter I used is fine, no off flavors in the fermentation department, just a slight tannin astringency. So the answer is buy a ph meter! My favorite, new equipment! Now why did everything work last year and the years before, I don't know. I'm chalking it up to the one thing I didn't test and it bit me in the A$$.

Click to expand...

Aah, yeah that makes sense. I use lactic acid to treat my sparge water, 3-4mL. Our water up here in P-ville is even harder than yours, so I usually also mix 1:1 RO water to dilute the hardness and add some gypsum to replace the calcium that comes out through diluting.