Electric Heating Element for RIMs/eHERMS

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This weekend I am testing with a 10 gallon mash of a Dale-Pale Ale clone, and another 5 gallon batch. I will put up the results.
 
So how did the beer turn out?

I've kept this as a plan, but for now I figure I better just work on brewing in general (all-grain is still new, batch #2 coming up with an IPA).

I will switch to a RIMS system, the question is whether it will be RIMS or HERMS, well technically they are all HERMS right?

My question for this system will involve something with a very stepped mash,
like a good oatmeal stout, or wheat beer. How do the steps go, and how are the results? I've read the recommended 2°F/min, does this perform faster or slower?

-Mac
 
So how did the beer turn out?

I've kept this as a plan, but for now I figure I better just work on brewing in general (all-grain is still new, batch #2 coming up with an IPA).

I will switch to a RIMS system, the question is whether it will be RIMS or HERMS, well technically they are all HERMS right?

My question for this system will involve something with a very stepped mash,
like a good oatmeal stout, or wheat beer. How do the steps go, and how are the results? I've read the recommended 2°F/min, does this perform faster or slower?

-Mac

I had 24.5 lbs of grains and 7.5 gallons of water and I ending up filling up the 10 gallon Gott cooler to the top.

I mashed in at 122F and then set the PID target to 153F. Once it reached 153F, I held it at 153Ffor an hour (just let it run), and then I set the PID to 167F and once it it hit 167F, I held it at 167F for 15 minutes. I then batched sparged, by alternating the draining of some of the wort into the copper and replenishing with hot water. I closed the dump valve until I see the circulating mash running clear after the water addition. I repeated this until I collected 12 gallons for the boil.

I achieved 0.5 F degree rise per minute running with pump wide open (max flow), opposed to the 1.8F/minute reported to be used for programmed infusion mashing for some Belgians in Brewing:science and Practice woodhouse. They also use a 1F/minute in some of the tests on yield.

I will switch to a RIMS system, the question is whether it will be RIMS or HERMS, well technically they are all HERMS right?
All of them recirculate, but the HERMS applies heat indirectly to the pipe rather than putting the heating element in the flow of the mash.

The Heat tape approach outlined in this thread is similar to the HERMS in that the heat is applied to the outside of the pipe rather than putting the heating element in the flow.

You could go with more heating tape or more elements, but I was shooting for < 80% of a 15 amp circuit for the whole system to make sure it is safe.

My current plan is to change out the PID I have for a PID with Ramp-Soak so I can set my schedule and walk away.

The weekend brew sessions went well, with 10 gallons of a Dale-Pale-Ale clone and 5 gallons of an IPA being cycled through the system. The 5 gallon batch heat rise rate was about the same.

So far I have put > 10 Five gallon batches through the various versions of the system, and 2 ten gallons batches.

I plan to adjust flow rate/turbulence in the heaters (insert a coil of wire to break up laminar flow to see if I can improve the heat gain).

I have been having really good luck with it, and I think I have been making more consistent beers.

Please let me know if you have any more questions or if I can be clearing on any of the build details.

As always use a GFCI

Joel
 
This weekend I am running two batches through the system.

I am putting in the following (see below) to introduce turbulence into the flow and increase heat transfer. I will try the stainless steel rod in the center of the pipe on one five gallon batch and record the rate of temp increase, and repeat with the spring only and the spring + rod.

89535K26 Multipurpose Stainless Steel (Type 304/304L), 5/16" Diameter, 6' Length
9663K78 302 Stainless Steel Cut-to-Length Compression Spring, 20" Length, .500" OD, .035" Wire Diameter
 
I put a length of stainless steel rod and a spring over the rod in the lower heating pipe and I am currently mashing 12 lbs of grains, with 1.25 qts/lb.

The ambient (outside) temp is 41 degrees Fahrenheit and with the modifications in one of the heating pipes I am getting >1 degree/minute rise. Preheated water and added grains and the system brought 140 degree mash to 153 in 13 minutes.

The system runs on 1 15Amp 110V circuit.

I may add a length of rod and spring to the upper heater, but this one has the brewmeter in it and I suspect I broke up the laminar flow in the lower heater and this introduced turbulence in the upper tube as well.

I don't think I will do any additional mods.

I will post final pictures soon.

Joel
 
Finished two the mashes today, 12# and 13# of grains. System did between 1 degree F/minute and 1.25 degrees a minute. Outside temp started at 41F and at the end 50F.

1 to 1.5 degrees/min.

System ramps from mashing to mashout in < 15minutes. I must admit, once the mashing is done, I set the system for the mashout temp and forget it (deal with the getting the other batch into the fermenter).

I will post updates on reliability of the system.

Joel
 
All,

I chatted with someone who is majoring in bio-chem, and I don't understand why we want > 1 degree F per minute increase
in the mash temp. Everything I have been reading seems to indicate that it is the temp*time rather than the time which is important.

Joel
 
Due to the thermal mass in the tun, temp rise requires the wort coming out of the heat exchanger to be some delta higher than the desired new temp. To ramp faster than 1-2F per minute would require that temp to be something close to boiling and the very top of the tun and grain bed could be overheated.
 
Due to the thermal mass in the tun, temp rise requires the wort coming out of the heat exchanger to be some delta higher than the desired new temp. To ramp faster than 1-2F per minute would require that temp to be something close to boiling and the very top of the tun and grain bed could be overheated.

Thanks. That is what I thought as well.
 
How much additional temp control did you get by using the rod & spring? It would be one less thing to clean if I were to leave it out.

(not sure if you clean in place, but I was thinking of using tri-clamps to connect everything so I can easily disassemble for scrubbing)
 
How much additional temp control did you get by using the rod & spring? It would be one less thing to clean if I were to leave it out.

(not sure if you clean in place, but I was thinking of using tri-clamps to connect everything so I can easily disassemble for scrubbing)

Sorry, work has been getting in the way. I do have to adjust my priorities :)

It increased the ramp, by about 1/2 to 1 degree. It is a bit hard to judge, because the losses in the system depends on the surrounding temp. But, the rate of increase by adding the spring was significant!! I think you could also narrow the tube but, the heated surface area would decrease, and you might still have laminar flow, which reduces heat transfer. Anyway, I am keeping the spring.

After the mashing is done,
1) Dump the grains
2) I fill with cold water, cycle a minute or two which I put the wort on to boil
3) Dump the water. Refill with water, and cycle some PBW though the system.
4) Drain.

I pulled and inspected the spring after 3 batches, and with the above proceedure it was like new.
Before a batch, I simply rinse (fill with a little water, and cycle for a minute) to make sure all of the connections are tight etc... And dump the water.

Then I put in the mash water for the desired thickness, wait till it hits temp. Then I add the grain, while the system is cycling. This prevents dough balls and I have yet to clog the system even when I am mashing for 10 gallons (22lbs of grain, but, it is really full).

I think it is a great little system (I am biased). Sorry for the delay.
-Joel
 
So am I understanding correctly that you are actually running 2 of these pipes concurrently to achieve that 1*/minute temperature rise?

I love this idea. A lot. I just want to make sure I know exactly what's going on before I commit.

Also, do you have a wiring diagram for your setup?

Thanks for all the hard work. People whose minds think in this way amaze me.
 
So am I understanding correctly that you are actually running 2 of these pipes concurrently to achieve that 1*/minute temperature rise?

I love this idea. A lot. I just want to make sure I know exactly what's going on before I commit.

Also, do you have a wiring diagram for your setup?

Thanks for all the hard work. People whose minds think in this way amaze me.

All the parts and build photos are a few posts back.

The heater is wired in just like the RIMS tube, with a Solid State Relay controlling the power the heat tape. I put a thermal fuse in the box with the heaters just to be safe, these go inline with the power.

I will post a diagram in a bit.

Joel
 
Here is the diagram

Joel

WIRE.jpg
 
Thanks for the diagram.

I saw the build and understand how it works, I was just wondering if the desired effect could be achieved with 1 of those units instead of two, and if the drop off in performance was significant with 1 as opposed to two.

You said you'd been running the system for a couple of years. Were you only running 1 unit up until recently? If so, what did you observe to be the efficiency difference in maintaining/controlling temperature?

Thanks again.
 
Thanks for the diagram.

I saw the build and understand how it works, I was just wondering if the desired effect could be achieved with 1 of those units instead of two, and if the drop off in performance was significant with 1 as opposed to two.

You said you'd been running the system for a couple of years. Were you only running 1 unit up until recently? If so, what did you observe to be the efficiency difference in maintaining/controlling temperature?

Thanks again.

I was running with two units for most of the time. In the beginning, over two years ago, I did use only one pipe, but observed < 0.25 degree rise per minute. I then added the second tube and insulated.

I think insulation made a huge difference, and you might be able to get away with only one unit, especially if you add hot water to do the step rises and batch sparge at the end.

I wanted to ramp to mash out in a reasonable time at the end, so I like the two pipe setup.


Joel
 
I was thinking about using heat tape for lagering in a 15 gallon SS Blichmann conical during the winter (keeping it outside in a box made from insulation board). Any thoughts on how much heat tape I'd need and at what strength? This seems more feasable than something like fermwrap because of the shape of the conical and all of the fittings.

I'm hoping that I could use a lower wattage tape to keep the costs down some, but it's been a looooong time since high school physycs and I wouldn't know where to start with trying to figure it out. I can say that I'd probably use 2" insulation board to form the box, and the winters in DC can be anywhere from 0-50 degrees, depending.
 
I was thinking about using heat tape for lagering in a 15 gallon SS Blichmann conical during the winter (keeping it outside in a box made from insulation board). Any thoughts on how much heat tape I'd need and at what strength? This seems more feasable than something like fermwrap because of the shape of the conical and all of the fittings.

I'm hoping that I could use a lower wattage tape to keep the costs down some, but it's been a looooong time since high school physycs and I wouldn't know where to start with trying to figure it out. I can say that I'd probably use 2" insulation board to form the box, and the winters in DC can be anywhere from 0-50 degrees, depending.

Here is a heat loss calculator:
http://www.thermalinc.com/math/aitkenform.htm

I did a 5'x5'x5' cube, and 0 outside temp. with a design temp of 50 degrees and came up with about 50 watts being required to maintain temp. For example a light bulb.

It really depends on fast you want to raise the temp, to maintain temp, a simple solution with a large of amount insulation and a simple heater should work.

You will still need a thermostat since even a 50watt lightbulb in a highly insulated box will, over a long time, ramp to a high temp. If not regulated

Joel
 
Just a post to bring up this link.

There are a number of threads of people discussing issues with RIMS and HERMS, so I thought people might want to follow this thread. It works, and for 5 to 10 gallons in a well insulated system, it works very well.

I hope to post the step by step for a couple of batches I am doing the weekend. Any suggestions I will work into the system.

Joel
 
I will mount the thermal fuses this weekend, and maybe put the mess in the box.

Too many projects.

1) Heater needs to be finished
2) Wifi and RF temp. build starting (see thread)
3) Beer in the bag needs to be finished... still rather good :mug:

Is there a link to the thread for the Wifi and RF temp build? I would like to take a look at this.
 
Today I brewed a English ale, 6.25lbs, mashed with 1.75 qt/lb water to grist.

The following ramp are observed (using 2 elements) in 54 degree F ambient air temp.

10:46am 116F
10:47am 117F
10:48am 118F
10:49am 119F
10:59am 132F
---- Working fine, so I stopped recording.

The attached photos are
1) the system in operation, with the mashtun exit temp and the temp on the exit of the heater
2) the clean in place. After I dump the grains, I use PBW and cycle water through the system. Since I am going to brew in the next couple of days, I will let it soak for a bit, cycle clean water and let it drain before I mash again.

let me know if there are any photos you would like to see.

Joel

IMG_1594r.jpg


IMG_1596r.jpg
 
As I move to an electric brew kettle, I am going to add two more tubes to this for an external electric Calandria which can bring the wort to a boil, for 5 and 10 gallon batches. I will need to use two separate 110VAC circuits, but I should save on the pump.
 
How will this save on the pump?

I didn't see a picture of the spring in the tube. Does it rest against the sides of the tube or is it held in the middle by the rod?
 
How will this save on the pump?

I didn't see a picture of the spring in the tube. Does it rest against the sides of the tube or is it held in the middle by the rod?

The rod is put through the spring and the spring is held in the middle of the tube by the rod as you suggest.

If I add two more tubes to the rims setup to be able to bring the wort to a boil in the copper, then I only need one pump, since I can re-direct the flow to mash, boil and cool.

It turns out some has done this with a conventional RIMS tube.
 
Can you post a link to where someone is boiling wort in a RIMS tube please?

I would like to boil without a propane burner or a heat stick. I do BIAB but I don't think that makes any difference in how the RIMS works.
 
Can you post a link to where someone is boiling wort in a RIMS tube please?

I would like to boil without a propane burner or a heat stick. I do BIAB but I don't think that makes any difference in how the RIMS works.

Here is one reference:
[ame]http://youtu.be/_l0v5dmHN3k[/ame]

There are concerns when pumping the "boiling" wort through the external calandria.

Cavitation will occur if you don't get the flow and pressure right through the pump.

I want the tube to fail safe, meaning, if the flow stops, the tube should simply shut down. I have used thermal fuses to trip if the temp outside the tube reaches a given temp. I selected these based on mashing temps, I need to recalculate them if I am going to use the tube to boil.

Also, I want to make sure there is no way for steam to build up and stop the flow through the pump, so I am studying the designs used by brewers and looking at the safetys.

I am still looking for the link I had found, the builder had a >3kw rims tube with an internal element, attached horizontally to the outflow of a pump mounted below the copper.
 
Thanks for that link.
He talks like the whole pot doesn't have to boil at once, but I gather that the whole pot has to be boiled even if a little at a time to drive off the "stinky" parts.
I hope you can find the link to the 3kw internal element builder.
 
Is there a reason you went with stainless steel over copper for the heating tube?
 
Is there a reason you went with stainless steel over copper for the heating tube?

When I was testing I used Copper, and I still have one unit. It works fine and would be a good way to go to reduce the cost. You can move the heat tape to stainless tubes later if you want too. If you go with copper you might want to watch for electrolysis if the plan is to mix metals.

I went with stainless since I think it holds up a little better.
 
I was actually thinking more of the better heat conductivity of copper rather than the cost. Can you explain more detail on the electrolysis issue?
 
I was actually thinking more of the better heat conductivity of copper rather than the cost. Can you explain more detail on the electrolysis issue?

If you insulate the tubes well, the heat should transfer even in a stainless steel tube. The major issue is laminar flow, that is why a spring is used to introduce turbulence into the heating pipe to help with heat transfer.

For the corrosion issue here is a great reference, depends greatly on the type of metal.

http://www.copper.org/applications/architecture/arch_dhb/fundamentals/arch_considerations.html
 
Hey, am thinking of putting something like this together. I'd like to put it in a toolbox or something similar. Assuming I used the same materials as you, do you think there is any chance I could get away with the heating pipes in the same small enclosure (thinking a 24"x9"x9" aluminium box) as the PID controller and the SSR? Or does the system, even well insulated, still just put out too much heat to operate in an enclosure with temperature sensitive electronics?

Thanks for the thread.
 
Hey, am thinking of putting something like this together. I'd like to put it in a toolbox or something similar. Assuming I used the same materials as you, do you think there is any chance I could get away with the heating pipes in the same small enclosure (thinking a 24"x9"x9" aluminium box) as the PID controller and the SSR? Or does the system, even well insulated, still just put out too much heat to operate in an enclosure with temperature sensitive electronics?

Thanks for the thread.

When the mash is circulating, the tubes remain roughly at the temp of the exiting liquid, and significantly lower that than the temp of the exiting liquid on the outside of the insulation (I can put my hand on the outside of the insulation for as long as I like).

However, once the liquid stops circulating the temp rises quickly and the carry over heating can be significant. I am controlling the system by measuring the temp of the mash exiting the mash tun. If a sensor is placed at the entry of the tubes it might keep the over shoot in check.

You could put a reset-able thermal breaker in the case, one which would trip if the enclosure gets above the working temp of the PID.

I have thermal fuses in the box to make sure it never gets hot enough to cause a fire.

Joel
 
Finally had to replace the plastic in the cooler.... major distortion. I put in a 44 quart stainless Bayou classic.

Decided to do a Utah Bio Diesel stainless basket (12x13) to allow removal of the grains so 5 gallon boils using a 1500 watt heat stick to occur in the mash tun.

Since I have the pump, I plan to use ice and water in a separate cooler and make a recirculating wort cooler.

Pictures will be added soon.

Joel
 
1 lb Ice to 1lb of 32 degree water requires 144 BTUs. Plan is to run roughly 10 ft 1/2 inch copper in bottom of cooler and throw ice on it. With losses might be roughly one to one, 5 gallons of ice for 5 gallons of 200 degrees wort. Parts on order.
 
An initial fill with 5 gallons of 50 degrees water will reduce the required ice significantly. The trade off is time.
 
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