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SqueegeeBob

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I'm trying to brew an English Bitter (5 gallon batch) starting with my local municipal water supply.

Recipe:
8 lbs British 2-row
8 oz crystal 120L
4 oz special roast 50L
Expected SRM = 11

Municipal Water:
Calcium = 50
Magnesium = 28
Sulfate = 119
Sodium = 161
Chloride = 202
Bicarbonate = 215
Alkalinity = 177
Total Hardness = 237
pH = 7.7

My Plan:
Mash with 1.25qt per lb of grain, dilute the source water with 85% distilled water, and add the following:
.2g/gal of gypsum <-- Mash and Sparge
.5g/gal of epsom <-- Mash and Sparge
.25g/gal of pickling lime <-- Mash only

I believe that will give me a profile that looks like this:
Calcium = 55.6
Magnesium = 17.2
Sulfate = 98.8
Sodium = 24.2
Chloride = 30.3
Bicarbonate = 140.9
Alkalinity = 117
Total Hardness = 210


What do you think? Am I on the right track?
 
I'm trying to brew an English Bitter (5 gallon batch) starting with my local municipal water supply.

Recipe:
8 lbs British 2-row
8 oz crystal 120L
4 oz special roast 50L
Expected SRM = 11

Municipal Water:
Calcium = 50
Magnesium = 28
Sulfate = 119
Sodium = 161
Chloride = 202
Bicarbonate = 215
Alkalinity = 177
Total Hardness = 237
pH = 7.7

My Plan:
Mash with 1.25qt per lb of grain, dilute the source water with 85% distilled water, and add the following:
.2g/gal of gypsum <-- Mash and Sparge
.5g/gal of epsom <-- Mash and Sparge
.25g/gal of pickling lime <-- Mash only

I believe that will give me a profile that looks like this:
Calcium = 55.6
Magnesium = 17.2
Sulfate = 98.8
Sodium = 24.2
Chloride = 30.3
Bicarbonate = 140.9
Alkalinity = 117
Total Hardness = 210


What do you think? Am I on the right track?


Personally i never do water adjustments anymore, but it does look solid.
 
IMO, you only need to doctor the water if something's really out of line. I've been using double filtered water (unit is under the sink) to brew all my batches to date. I'm focusing on styles from the British Isles, so ESB is just one of them. To date, I've had great tasting brews... Not 100% sure it would be the same when compared with something from across the pond, but it's not that easy to get something that is the same as what's served over there. Most of the time, they alter the stuff they export.

To the OP, if you're comfortable with the changes, and someone that has a better grasp on the water chemistry gives a thumb-up on your changes, then go for it. I would just wait until you either know your plan is solid, or try it with a future batch.

I wouldn't use straight tap water for your brew (I won't do that here), but I'm not sure if you really need to add elements to the mash and sparge waters.

I wish I had good info for the water supply where I am. Alas, the only info I have sucks for brewing. It's broad strokes with what it does list, and doesn't list nearly enough information to be of any real value.

I do hope you're going to use a very accurate scale to measure the additions... I got the 11oz capacity one from Williams Brewing not that long ago. It's insanely accurate... I plan on getting their 35# scale next, to weigh the grain for batches. Anything under 11oz, though, will go onto the first scale. Pretty nuts when you can see how a few grains changes the reading.
 
My concern is that the sodium in the local water is so high, but the calcium is pretty moderate. So if I dilute the water to bring the sodium down I end up with hardly any calcium left.

I've done a few batches using the local supply and they all come out with an odd flavor that I'm sure is from the water. I'm pretty new to using additions though, so I'm just not sure what kind of modification is appropriate.
 
I don't like the additions. I've never used lime, so I'm not sure what the pH of the mash will be, but it seems like too much sulfate. I'd probably ditch the MgSo4 and the CaSo4, and use calcium choride for the calcium.

What is the water profile with just your tap water and the distilled? That would be a better place to start to see what you're working with.
 
50% Distilled
Calcium = 25
Magnesium = 14
Sulfate = 59.5
Sodium = 80.5
Chloride = 101
Bicarbonate = 107.5
Alkalinity = 89
Total Hardness = 120

75% Distilled
Calcium = 12.5
Magnesium = 7
Sulfate = 29.8
Sodium = 40.3
Chloride = 50.5
Bicarbonate = 53.8
Alkalinity = 44
Total Hardness = 60

85% Distilled
Calcium = 7.5
Magnesium = 4.2
Sulfate = 17.9
Sodium = 24.2
Chloride = 30.3
Bicarbonate = 32.3
Alkalinity = 27
Total Hardness = 36
 
I like the 75% distilled! That looks really good to me.

For additions, I'd probably use just 2 grams of gypsum and 2 grams of calcium chloride. That should be fine. If you check with a pH meter and your mash pH is too low (highly unlikely), then you could consider a base to add.
 
When you say 2 grams do you mean just in the mash? It seems like that would yield a pretty high value for both Sulfate and Chloride.

Though I admit I don't know the first thing about water adjustments.


**Edit**

If I mash with 2.75 gallons of 75% distilled and 25% local and add 1 gram each of gypsum and CaCl it should give me the following values:

Calcium = 59.2
Magnesium = 7
Sulfate = 81.4
Sodium = 40.3
Chloride = 95.1
Bicarbonate = 53.8
Alkalinity = 44
Total Hardness = 177

To keep those numbers in the sparge I'd need to add another 2 grams each to about 6 gallons of water. Is that something I should worry about? Or would it be just as well to sparge with just the straight diluted water?
 
What if I were to use 75% distilled, 25% local, and then added 4 grams of gypsum to the whole 9.25 gallons (2.75 in mash, 6.5 for sparge) of water I plan to brew with?

The calculators say that would give me something like this profile:
Calcium = 39
Magnesium = 7
Sodium = 40
Chloride = 51
Sulfate = 94

Is the low-ish calcium a problem? Is there any reason I shouldn't adjust all the water at once instead of treating them separately?
 
What if I were to use 75% distilled, 25% local, and then added 4 grams of gypsum to the whole 9.25 gallons (2.75 in mash, 6.5 for sparge) of water I plan to brew with?

The calculators say that would give me something like this profile:
Calcium = 39
Magnesium = 7
Sodium = 40
Chloride = 51
Sulfate = 94

Is the low-ish calcium a problem? Is there any reason I shouldn't adjust all the water at once instead of treating them separately?

4 grams of gypsum is too much. Two grams (in the mash) is fine. Grain has some calcium in it. I'd not go with sulfate that high- it makes the beers taste kinda harsh and weird.
 
May I recommend Pale Ale by Terry Foster. He gives recommended water profiles for the recipes in the book. For each recipe, he recommends the required calcium, sulphate, and chloride, and I've found this informatory invaluable.
For a Special Bitter, he recommends Ca 50 - 100 ppm, S04 100 - 200 ppm, and Cl 20 ppm.
You may also need additional treatment to adjust the mash pH, but with my fairly soft water, I am fortunate. Adding some gypsum and a small amount of CaCl brings the pH within range and also matches Foster's recommendations.

-a.
 
4 grams of gypsum is too much. Two grams (in the mash) is fine. Grain has some calcium in it. I'd not go with sulfate that high- it makes the beers taste kinda harsh and weird.


I feel like an idiot, but it seems to me you're telling me to do two opposite things.

If I add 4 grams to 9.25 gallons that's about .43 grams per gallon, so in a 2.75 gallon mash (if I treated it separately) I'd be adding 1.2 grams.

If 1.2 grams in the mash is too much, then how will adding 2 grams instead (.71 grams per gallon) going to be better?

Or am I completely misunderstanding you?
 
I feel like an idiot, but it seems to me you're telling me to do two opposite things.

If I add 4 grams to 9.25 gallons that's about .43 grams per gallon, so in a 2.75 gallon mash (if I treated it separately) I'd be adding 1.2 grams.

If 1.2 grams in the mash is too much, then how will adding 2 grams instead (.71 grams per gallon) going to be better?

Or am I completely misunderstanding you?

I'm finding that I love IPAs, APAs, and other hoppy beers. But I'm not loving high sulfate water for them. I'd add the salts to the mash to get the pH in range, and then not add any other salts. I meant two grams total, not divided up and added in the sparge water as well.

I've been sort of following ajdelange's posts on water, and I like my beer much better with far less salts.

If you want to match a profile, that's up to you of course. I'm just saying that it's not my preference.
 
So what you're basically saying (please correct me if I'm mistaken) is that I could dilute my total volume of water with 75% distilled, and then treat my 2.75 gallons of mash water with 2 grams of gypsum, giving me a mash water profile like this:
Ca = 56
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 137
pH ~ 5.3 to 5.4 (@ room temp)

And then sparge with the other 6.5 gallons of 75% distilled (and untreated) water, giving me a combined mash + sparge water profile in the boil that looks like this:
Ca = 25
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 62
 
So what you're basically saying (please correct me if I'm mistaken) is that I could dilute my total volume of water with 75% distilled, and then treat my 2.75 gallons of mash water with 2 grams of gypsum, giving me a mash water profile like this:
Ca = 56
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 137
pH ~ 5.3 to 5.4 (@ room temp)

And then sparge with the other 6.5 gallons of 75% distilled (and untreated) water, giving me a combined mash + sparge water profile in the boil that looks like this:
Ca = 25
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 62

Yeah, that's what I meant. But now that I see the S04 in the mash, I think it's too high! I'd rather see less S04. What happens with no gypsum?
 
75% distilled, no additions
Ca = 13
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 30


75% distilled, 1 gram gypsum in 2.75 gallon mash
Ca = 34
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 83


75% distilled, 1 gram gypsum in 2.75 gallon mash + 6.5 gallons of 75% distilled sparge
Ca = 19
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 46
 
One other option I am mulling around is diluting the local water with 59.4% distilled water and adding .324 grams of gypsum per gallon of water. That yields the following profile:
Ca = 40
Mg = 11
Na = 65
Cl = 82
SO4 = 97
 
75% distilled, no additions
Ca = 13
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 30


75% distilled, 1 gram gypsum in 2.75 gallon mash
Ca = 34
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 83


75% distilled, 1 gram gypsum in 2.75 gallon mash + 6.5 gallons of 75% distilled sparge
Ca = 19
Mg = 7
Na = 40
Cl = 51
SO4 = 46

I like this last one. I'm confused because it seems like the mash profile is changing weirdly. Are we looking at JUST the mash profile here? It's weird because the middle and bottom are different, but still with 2.75 gallons for the mash and 1 gram of gypsum. I'm so confused!
 
Right, sorry, the middle and bottom one are the same batch, the bottom set of numbers just reflects the combination of treated mash water and untreated sparge water.

In other words, the middle set is the mash, and the bottom set is the mash + sparge while ignoring any minerals gained from the grain in the mash, or if I were to treat the entire volume of water with a single gram of gypsum.
 
Right, sorry, the middle and bottom one are the same batch, the bottom set of numbers just reflects the combination of treated mash water and untreated sparge water.

In other words, the middle set is the mash, and the bottom set is the mash + sparge while ignoring any minerals gained from the grain in the mash, or if I were to treat the entire volume of water with a single gram of gypsum.

Ah! Thanks for clarifying. I'd just look at the mash for now, and talk about lowering the sparge pH (with the RO or distilled water and lactic acid if needed) later. Usually, "sparge additions" are not actually in the sparge water, but instead added to the boil kettle for flavor.

I just treat my mash water to get a nice pH, and then acidify my sparge water a bit because I have very alkaline water.
 
May I recommend Pale Ale by Terry Foster. He gives recommended water profiles for the recipes in the book. For each recipe, he recommends the required calcium, sulphate, and chloride, and I've found this informatory invaluable.
For a Special Bitter, he recommends Ca 50 - 100 ppm, S04 100 - 200 ppm, and Cl 20 ppm.
You may also need additional treatment to adjust the mash pH, but with my fairly soft water, I am fortunate. Adding some gypsum and a small amount of CaCl brings the pH within range and also matches Foster's recommendations.

-a.

I could actually bring my water to these levels fairly easily. About 88% distilled with .75 grams of gypsum per gallon of water (7 grams for my 9.25 gallons) would get me to this:
Ca = 52
Mg = 3
Na = 19
Cl = 24
SO4 = 127
Alkalinity = 21

Would it be wise to add .5 gram of baking soda to the mash which would raise the Na to 32 and the Alkalinity to 50? I'm a little concerned that the mash pH might be a little too acidic without it.
 
I'm certainly not an expert on water treatment. As I said, I am fortunate with my water, and in my case the gypsum and CaCl works fine. If my pH meter is to be believed (and that is a big if), my mash pH for a bitter comes in very close to 5.4, but the alkalinity of my water is about 42. Based on what I have read, I'm not so sure that I would like to add extra Na with the high SO4 levels. My Na comes in close to 8.5 ppm, and I find that acceptable. Perhaps you could use chalk instead of baking soda, but I have no idea how much you would need to add.

-a.
 
Just to give this thread some closure, I ended up going with 8 gallons of distilled water, 1.5 gallons of tap water, and added 4 grams each of gypsum and calcium chloride for a profile that looks like this:

Ca = 64
Mg = 4.5
Na = 25
SO4 = 81
Cl = 85
Alkalinity = 28

I ended up getting 80% efficiency and had visible signs of fermentation in less than 5 hours. I'll update once more when I know how it turned out.
 
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