RIMS for Dummies

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I'm sorry if this had been brought up before....

What water to grain ratio do you guys run? I have yet to incorporate a rims system, however using the typical 10 gallon cooler/false bottom set up, I can't get my mash to recirculate or transfer to the BK without getting stuck, unless the valve is just slightly cracked. I'm talking flow so slow I might as well be fly sparging.

I'd imagine it's either the fact I run 1.25 quarts per pounds, or maybe crush? I run my gap pretty tight (.38) but I condition my grains, and my water/grain ratio is set in stone since we do 10 gallon batches in a 10 gallon cooler.

Really don't want to set up a rims until i figure out my flow issues.
 
Well, I ran my new rims system for the first time today. The mash was perfect, hit my pre-boil exactly.
Many thanks to everyone in this thread for all of the info here.

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image-382720722.jpg
 
I've put together the RIMS system and I'm having a heck of a time with the Auberin SYL-4352 PID.

I got the system wired up and running fine. Per the suggestions on this thread I I set my temp to 150, adjusted the flow to what I would use during the mash and heated the water up to 140 and at that point I put it in Auto Tune. The SV flashed and the temp was rising to 150 and then kept going. 45 min later it was over 167 and still doing it's Auto Tune.

How long is the Auto Tune usually take?

I then set it to manual and the temp went to 155 and kept climbing.

What am I doing wrong? Any and all help would be appriciated.

As for the rest of the setting on the PID I left them in the defaults.

Thanks Much,

Greg
 
First: When you do an "auto tune" you need to set the temp differencial at 10° below your set point. If you bring the temp to your set temp when you start auto, a lot can go wrong in a hurry.
 
You have the PID at 100%. Try turning it down. It is so powerful that it overshoots because it is on all the time. My setup runs best at 20%, which means it is only 'on' 20% of the time. Try changing the setting to 20 under the OUTH setting. Then you will probably need to adjust it up as it most likely won't be able to meet the temperature needs. Try moving it up 10% and running autotune each time.

I just did the same thing last week. :)

http://auberins.com/images/Manual/Manual version 3.4.pdf
 
Thanks for the replies.

P-J, when you say set the temp differential 10 Deg below my set point are you saying if I want a final temp of 150 I need to set the temp to 140? Pardon my ignorance but if I got it wrong please let me know.

Spring Chicken, I do have the manual and have been going through it all afternoon. I give your suggestion a go tomorrow and let you know how it does.

I think there should be a "setting up the PID for Dummies" :)

Again, thanks for the help and I'll let you know how I get along.

Oh, How long should the auto tune take?

Greg
 
What I'm trying to say is that you should have your water temp about 10° below your target temp when you start auto tune. i.e. You want to tune it for 155°. Start your auto tune with the water temp at abour 145°.
 
Today I tried to get the controller working correctly without luck.

I set the OUTH to 30 and preheated the water to 140 as the controller was set to 150. At 140 I started the auto tune. It seemed like it was working and holding the temp at 150 and then it climbed to 167 after running for 1.5 hours. Shut it down.

I returned all the controller paramenters to factory and set it to manual. Again it hit the temp, held and then started climbing.

It's like the heater just keeps cycling on and off even after it goes past the set temp.

I'm totally stumped on why it's doing it and how to fix it. As for the output reading it's dead on but just is not shutting down heater to keep it at the set temp.

Any other ideas? I really do appreciate all the help.

Greg
 
Tell us a more about your setup. What type temp probe are you using? Is the PID configured correctly? Can you confirm that your SSR is working properly? What are the output lights doing on the PID and SSR?

A couple of issues that I've read about that resemble your issue is 1) the SSR is bad. Usually, when SSR's burn out, they do so in the closed position passing current regardless of what the control circuit is doing and 2) if your probe is a thermocouple and your PID is in an unvented control panel, the reference temperature circuit could be getting hot enough to cause the temp to continue to rise.

Something to think about.
 
Tell us a more about your setup. What type temp probe are you using? Is the PID configured correctly? Can you confirm that your SSR is working properly? What are the output lights doing on the PID and SSR?

A couple of issues that I've read about that resemble your issue is 1) the SSR is bad. Usually, when SSR's burn out, they do so in the closed position passing current regardless of what the control circuit is doing and 2) if your probe is a thermocouple and your PID is in an unvented control panel, the reference temperature circuit could be getting hot enough to cause the temp to continue to rise.

Something to think about.

Stlbeer. I'm using an Omega thermocouple. The lights on the PID and SSR are both blinking on and off and I measured the voltage at the heating coil and it goes on in unison with the lights coming on. I have it in a box and put vent holes in it. In fact while having the problems I removed the cover to check the SSR and left it ajar while it was working.

I've confermed that it is heating and cycling but doesn't stop when it hits the set temp. It's not that it's blasting to the set temp but just steadily keeps going. I let it go over an hour and a half on auto tune and the temp rose 17 deg past the set temp. On manual it did the same thing.

I really appreciate any and all help and suggestions.

Greg
 
First, set OutH=100, (the default), it should be left that way unless you have a massively overpowered heating element, then make sure manual mode is OFF. Then set At=2 which will engage the Auto Tune. When Auto Tune is over, it will display At=3. Don't turn it off until it turns to At=3, it will overshoot, it will undershoot, that's how it learns the systems heat input capability and the rate at which it cools. I think mine took 3 hours, but I might have gotten distracted during the process.
 
klyph, that's the answer I've been looking for as far as how long the auto tune might take. I read in the manual that setting the OUTH to anything less than 100 cuts the output of the heater. So I returned it to 100.

Are there any setting that should be set to a different value (besides temp) than the factory settings? Right now everything is back to factory settings.

I read that some set the P to one.

So tonight when I get out of the office I will:

Bring the water to within ten degrees of the set temp of 150
Put the PID in auto tune and let it run for as long as takes

I'll report back my results.

Thanks much for the help.

Greg
 
Success!! I called Auberins today and talked to a guy there about what was going on. He suggested that I turn all the settings back to factory and set the temp to 160 and see if it would hold.

I thought I had all the settings to factory but when I went through the menus I had the A-M set to 0 (manual) instead of 2, the factory setting.

I heated the water with propane until it reached 159 and then turned on the RIMS. It ran great and kept the temp at 160.

I then turned off the heat and let the temp drop to 158 then turned heat back on and turned on the Auto Tune.

Auto tune was completed in less than 10 min and the temp stayed rock solid at 160.

Thanks everyone for you help and support. I'm glad that it's up and running correctly. Now I'm ready to try it out on a brew. It will be a couple of weeks until I'll be able to brew as I have to be out of town next week.

Greg
 
gregkabob said:
Success!! I called Auberins today and talked to a guy there about what was going on. He suggested that I turn all the settings back to factory and set the temp to 160 and see if it would hold.

I thought I had all the settings to factory but when I went through the menus I had the A-M set to 0 (manual) instead of 2, the factory setting.

I heated the water with propane until it reached 159 and then turned on the RIMS. It ran great and kept the temp at 160.

I then turned off the heat and let the temp drop to 158 then turned heat back on and turned on the Auto Tune.

Auto tune was completed in less than 10 min and the temp stayed rock solid at 160.

Thanks everyone for you help and support. I'm glad that it's up and running correctly. Now I'm ready to try it out on a brew. It will be a couple of weeks until I'll be able to brew as I have to be out of town next week.

Greg

Hell go ahead brew now. You already have your mash water heated up
 
Congrats! Glad to hear you got it working. Now go brew or cook something!

Don't forget, you have to help others in need of ebrewing advice. That's how we keep this community of brewers thing going.

Paul
 
klyph, Ya, I know I missed the details DOH :D

stlbeer, More than ready to help out. This is the best home brew site out there and my first stop when I need info. It's great that everyone is willing to help the electrically challenged folks like me. :eek:

Greg
 
Greg,
Thanks for getting the kinks worked out on the PID. I have the same one and should be testing my RIMS this weekend. With the info you found out and the great help from HBT it should help me immensely. :mug:
 
David,

Just so everyone knows what worked for me:

All the parts I used are from the original thead except that the PID is the 4352 and not the 4342 since the 4352 is set up for the SSR.

The thermocouple is the one from omega. The Omega web site shows a 12 inch and I called them to get it made into a 4". Took two weeks to get. After looking at the Auberins site I could have purchased it from them.

In the end the PID is set (kept) at the factory settings except of course for the temp.

I set my temp to 160. Brought the temp of the water to 158 adjusted the flow for brew day and turned on the heater. The PID brought the temp up to 160 and kept it there no problem.

Then I let the water cool to 158 and put it into Auto Tune. It did it's thing and was done in less than 15 min. Worked great and temps are holding great.

I think what I did in the begining was to mess with some of the factory settings. Even when I thought I had them set to Factory I still had the A-M setting at 0 and it should have been at 2. ( as pointed out to me and I missed it DOH :drunk:)

Bottom line is it was operator error.

I hope my exeriance helps others and I really do apprcieate the support offered on this board. Can't wait to return from Fl to try it out. I have a 10 gl batch of Blue Moon clone ready to brew for my wife.

Greg
 
...
I have a 10 gl batch of Blue Moon clone ready to brew for my wife.

Greg
I am so jealous of your planned Blue Moon. That is just plainly an awesome beer that I frequently order at restaurants whenever I can.

I'm also really pleased that you have gotten your setup working properly.

You no longer need luck at this point so I wish you great success.

P-J
 
Thanks P-J. This will be the second batch of BM clone and my wife really likes it even though I drink most of it. I have a Kirin clone just ready to drink now. I tried it last night and have to say I like it. First beer using rice as one of the ingredients. One of the reason's I put together the RIMS is because the rubber maid mash tun will not hold it all per the recipe. Now that I can use the RIMS in the Keggle Mash Tun I'll be able to do the step infushion easier.

I just recieved my PICO style false bottom today and will install when I get home.

Greg
 
I'm moving to a tri-clover attachment on my Rims tube. I had some scorching today for the first time. I think it's because I started using the RIMS to bring the temp of the mash up to 168 for a mashout. Recirculating to clean it just wasn't getting her done.

Anyway, it seems like the element I have, the one from the parts list at the beginning of this post, may be too short. The tri-clover adds some depth to the attachment, I think. So I'm looking for a replacement that's longer, maybe straight. I have about 12" between the end of the tube and the probe.

Here's the element I have. Any suggestions for a new one? Many thanks, guys.

water-heater-element-2853.jpg
 
I used a cam fitting on my RIMs and I've been really happy with it. I think it is as effective as a tri clover but a little cheaper. I have a parts list somewhere if any one wants me to dig it up.
 
I used the same element and was plagued with scorching any time I used the RIMS to bring the temp of the tun up. I don't claim to understand all of the math behind it, but you need a longer element. Spread the heat over more surface area, i.e. reduce the heat density. CAMCO makes the same element in a 5500 watt version for about $20. That said, I brewed two batches with the 5500W element with no issues. I then used it to do a wheat and had a lot of scorching. 120 -> 143, then 143 -> 157, finally 157 -> 168. I did reduce the flow because I was worried about a stuck mash. So this could have been operator error.
 
I used the same element and was plagued with scorching any time I used the RIMS to bring the temp of the tun up. I don't claim to understand all of the math behind it, but you need a longer element. Spread the heat over more surface area, i.e. reduce the heat density. CAMCO makes the same element in a 5500 watt version for about $20. That said, I brewed two batches with the 5500W element with no issues. I then used it to do a wheat and had a lot of scorching. 120 -> 143, then 143 -> 157, finally 157 -> 168. I did reduce the flow because I was worried about a stuck mash. So this could have been operator error.

I wound up ordering THIS ELEMENT.

Hopefully it'll perform better. I was getting such great efficiency doing a mash out. Hopefully the remove and clean of the element will also help.

I'd also read that this particular element may not even be LWD. It seems these were "changed" by the manufacturer some time ago to make them "better." I think that's buried somewhere in this RIMS thread.
 
There was some discussion a bit ago in this thread about how to cap off the element ends and protect you (and them). I had previously been using a PVC cap, grommet, and some waterproof electrical tape. I think I even uploaded a picture some pages ago.

I just came across this stuff called Sugru. It's Air-curable moldable silicone rubber. you basically mold it like clay and once it cures (24 hours) it is heat resistant to about 360F and remains waterproof, solid, though slightly flexible. It feels kinda like the rubber for a bicycle tire. This stuff costs a bit but once I got it I fell in love with it. I've since found all sorts of ways to use it within my build and ended up having to go and order a few more packs.

Here's a pic of the package and the results:

IMG_0362.jpg


IMG_0360.jpg
 
Was wondering if i ordered the right stuff

1 x 25A SSR (MGR-1D4825) = $15.00
1 x Liquid tight RTD sensor, 4 in, 1/2 NPT Thread (PT100-L1001/2NPT) =
$45.35
Cable Option Deluxe Cable
1 x 1/4 DIN PID Temperature Controller (SYL-43X2) = $59.50
Output Configuration Option SYL-4342 Relay Contactor
 
Was wondering if i ordered the right stuff

1 x 25A SSR (MGR-1D4825) = $15.00
1 x Liquid tight RTD sensor, 4 in, 1/2 NPT Thread (PT100-L1001/2NPT) =
$45.35
Cable Option Deluxe Cable
1 x 1/4 DIN PID Temperature Controller (SYL-43X2) = $59.50
Output Configuration Option SYL-4342 Relay Contactor


You need a PID that supports SSR output, such as the SYL-4352. The SYL-4342 supports RELAY output.

You can probably call Auber and have the order changed.
 
stlbeer said:
You need a PID that supports SSR output, such as the SYL-4352. The SYL-4342 supports RELAY output.

You can probably call Auber and have the order changed.

Thanks I adctually read threw allot of post and found out I needed the 4352 sent a email yesterday and the fixed it yesterday witch I thought was odd but I'm happy also ordered the heat sink and they added it to my order from before and refunded me the shipping that was charged for the heat sink that site has great customer service..... I wonder if the op can list the proper pid on his diagram since he has the 4342 shown on it....
 
... I wonder if the op can list the proper pid on his diagram since he has the 4342 shown on it....

Well, it was about 3 years ago, but I'd say nope.

I've built about 4 of these. If you need assistance, don't be afraid to chime in.
 
I've cycled through a few elements in the past year. The first one said it was 120V 1500W ULWD, but I came to find out (as others did) that this 4 1/2" element was definitely not ULWD. I changed it out and went to a 9" element that was 120V and 1500W. Said LWD, but was much longer.

Well, I recently did a pilsner and had some scorching when ramping up for a mashout. I did do a protein rest and that created quite a lot of protein gunk.

So I went to amazon.com and bought a 220V ULWD element that was 4500W. I figured I'd run it at 120V and avoid scorching. Thing is, the element is shorter than a 220V 4500W LWD element I have in my BK running at 220V.

WTF? Does amazon and Camco just lie about these things? The new one is a lime life element, but it's 10" long and the other one is 13." Can't see how it can have less watt density, can you? Thinking about sending it back.

One other question, does anyone successfully do temperature ramps with their RIMS tube? I never have scorching issues just maintaining temps. But I have twice gotten some scorch when doing ramps from a protein rest or for mash out. I get good flow. I'm not measuring it, but it's solid.

Cheers.
 
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Dgonza9 said:
I've cycled through a few elements in the past year. The first one said it was 120V 1500W ULWD, but I came to find out (as others did) that this 4 1/2" element was definitely not ULWD. I changed it out and went to a 9" element that was 120V and 1500W. Said LWD, but was much longer.

Well, I recently did a pilsner and had some scorching when ramping up for a mashout. I did do a protein rest and that created quite a lot of protein gunk.

So I went to amazon.com and bought a 220V ULWD element that was 4500W. I figured I'd run it at 120V and avoid scorching. Thing is, the element is shorter than a 220V 4500W LWD element I have in my BK running at 220V.

WTF? Does amazon and Camco just lie about these things? The new one is a lime life element, but it's 10" long and the other one is 13." Can't see how it can have less watt density, can you? Thinking about sending it back.

One other question, does anyone successfully do temperature ramps with their RIMS tube? I never have scorching issues just maintaining temps. But I have twice gotten some scorch when doing ramps from a protein rest or for mash out. I get good flow. I'm not measuring it, but it's solid.

Cheers.

I do ramps using heat tape outside of a rims tube with no issues.
 
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