Electric BIAB Questions

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Antler

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I brew 5 gallon batches, eventually I'd like to move my setup indoors.

Im thinking about just using an element and PWM controller to basically replace propane as the heat source. I'm also tossing around the idea of a recirculating mash, and using a PID to control temps during the mash. I don't know why but I hate the idea of controlling the boil with the PID. Can I use a PWM to control the boil in the same system? Say a switch with mash mode, letting a PID control the element and pump during the mash. Then turn the switch to boil mode, and the element is then controlled by the PWM for the boil. Is this possible?
 
If you're going to use a PID to control the temp during the mash then switch to a PWM to control the boil, this is easily accomplished with just a PID that has manual control.

The Auber 2352 has an Auto/Manual button on the front. Push that then set % of power you want. 0-100%. Pretty much like a dial, but using buttons.

What you have proposed is definitely possible and I think Walker uses the same concept on his rig, but why when you can have all of it in 1 device?
 
I don't like the idea of pushing buttons for the boil, it's just my preference, but if I'm going to be standing there watching it the whole time (which I do) I'd much rather take control with a dial then pushing buttons.
 
I know the boil can be controlled with a PID in manual mode, but I prefer to use a dial for controlling a boil.


Well here's a pic hoping for some replies. I'm super bored so drew up a pretty crude drawing of what I'd want my control panel to look like. Nothing big, maybe 10"x10"?

Sorry for the rough artwork.

image-3256796081.jpg
 
I don't like the idea of pushing buttons for the boil, it's just my preference, but if I'm going to be standing there watching it the whole time (which I do) I'd much rather take control with a dial then pushing buttons.
But what "control" do you have to take? When you boil you don't ever change the setting. For your setup, for the amount of water you boil, you find what duty cycle is needed and then use it for all your batches. There's nothing to adjust during the 60-90 minute boil.

My boil usually goes something like this:

(1) Set duty cycle to 100% to get up to boil.
(2) Once boiling, reduce to 85% and maintain for entire duration.
(3) When boil is done, turn off boil.

You can certainly watch the boil the whole time, but there's no need to constantly tweak or adjust the duty cycle. That would indeed probably be easier with a rotary knob, but it's not required.

I'd stick with the 1 PID to do it all. It makes it simpler.

Kal
 
I'm always adjusting heat when boiling. Maybe it's just me playing with it but I always turn it up a little when I have the cover off for hop additions, turn it back down when the cover goes back on.
 
I'm always adjusting heat when boiling. Maybe it's just me playing with it but I always turn it up a little when I have the cover off for hop additions, turn it back down when the cover goes back on.
You shouldn't boil with the cover on. You need to boil with the cover off to drive off all sorts of volatile compounds (like DMS). It's one of the purposes of boiling.

I've never seen or heard of anyone turning the power up/down during boiling like that. Mostly because you should not boil with a cover.

Kal
 
I didn't know that! Thanks! This project is a long ways off. I'd like to see your upcoming BIAB system before making a decision.
 
Ok still researching this, and still want to have my control panel like the one in this crude drawing. What size box would I need. Could I fit everything in a 6x6 enclosure that's 4" deep?

image-456118110.jpg
 
I'm assuming you're boiling outside? I do as well and tend to play with the gas to increase or decrease the heat but I think that is more to adjust for wind than anything. Inside I don't think this will be as big a deal. And yeah, keep the lid off.
 
Ok still researching this, and still want to have my control panel like the one in this crude drawing. What size box would I need. Could I fit everything in a 6x6 enclosure that's 4" deep?

I don't know which PID you're wanting to use but the Auber ones are 100mm (3.93") deep. Not much of the PID is on the outside so it's going to be very close against the back and it may not be enough as 4" deep may be the outside of the enclosure, not the inside.

Remember that it's not just the stuff on the outside, but the stuff on the inside you need to fit in as well. All the wiring, and other things like SSRs, outlets, relays, and so on. Without knowing how much "stuff" you need to cram in there it's impossible to say if it'll work but I'll go on a limb and say "no" as the switches will take up half the inside room too. You need room for a PWM circuit board. It'll be rediculously tight and impossible work on (IMHO).


Kal
 
kal said:
I don't know which PID you're wanting to use but the Auber ones are 100mm (3.93") deep. Not much of the PID is on the outside so it's going to be very close against the back and it may not be enough as 4" deep may be the outside of the enclosure, not the inside.

Remember that it's not just the stuff on the outside, but the stuff on the inside you need to fit in as well. All the wiring, and other things like SSRs, outlets, relays, and so on. Without knowing how much "stuff" you need to cram in there it's impossible to say if it'll work but I'll go on a limb and say "no" as the switches will take up half the inside room too. You need room for a PWM circuit board. It'll be rediculously tight and impossible work on (IMHO).

Kal

I want a master switch, switch to switch mash mode/off/boil mode, PID, PWM, a switch for a pump and switch for exhaust fan.

I've also seen 8"x8"x6" enclosures, would this work?
 
Again, you're only naming the things that go on the outside. What about the things on the inside? You need room for them too. What about SSRs, receptacles, a heat sink (which should be outside actually), relays, and so on. I'm not sure how you're building/designing this thing but get your design 100% complete with all the parts figured out first. I'm not sure what parts you actually need inside as I don't know how you plan to build this.

I would even suggest getting all the parts first and seeing how much room they take up and *THEN* buying an enclosure to fit them all.

You also need some room to work. It's impossible (and not safe) to have zero wiring clearance inside the enclosure.

It also depends on how wires attach to the devices. Some may have wires coming out the bottom, some the side. You may need to leave room to get a screwdriver or other tools in there.

It also depends on the type of enclosure you talk about. If it's one where the backplate can be removed then it's a bit easier to wire since you can do it externally and then install the loaded backplate into the enclosure. The caveat to this is that that eats indo the depth of the enclosure. If it's a simple box with no backplate you have to figure out how you're going to mount things and if it's even possible to get a screwdriver or similar in there to wire things up in the first place.

Even if you were list every single part that goes inside and outside of the box and provided extreme details on these items and how the enclosure is made, I'm not sure anyone can answer this question for you without out them doing what I mentioned above: Buying all the parts and trying to figure out a layout that works and see how big it is.

So that's what I suggest you do: Buying all the parts and figure out a layout that works and see how big it is. There are enclosures of every shape and size available no matter how big or small you need this to be. The enclosure should be the last thing you buy, not the first.

Kal
 
I've also seen 8"x8"x6" enclosures, would this work?

looks like you drew that on a 11 '' x 8 1/2 '' paper, would you be comfortable using that layout? if so there are 2 of 3 dimensions! depth should be at least 8'' in my opinion, jim (2 cents worth)
 
looks like you drew that on a 11 '' x 8 1/2 '' paper, would you be comfortable using that layout? if so there are 2 of 3 dimensions! depth should be at least 8'' in my opinion, jim (2 cents worth)
IMHO you're assuming the drawing is to scale (not sure) and that there's nothing of consequence inside the box. I'm not sure those are valid assumptions.

Kal
 
kal said:
IMHO you're assuming the drawing is to scale (not sure) and that there's nothing of consequence inside the box. I'm not sure those are valid assumptions.

Kal

Thanks both you guys. I would like something small, same size as the paper if it could work but I know it's not to scale. Guess I'll just have to wait until I but everything to see what enclosure I need!
 
FYI my biab design uses a phase angle ssr for dial boil control and pid relay output to enable/disable 220v power contractor for mash temp control. I used a 8x11x6 enclosure with only one ssr and one contractor inside the panel.
 
FYI my biab design uses a phase angle ssr for dial boil control and pid relay output to enable/disable 220v power contractor for mash temp control. I used a 8x11x6 enclosure with only one ssr and one contractor inside the panel.

Must be a really tiny contractor to fit inside the panel. Perhaps a subcontractor rather than a general contractor? :cross:
 
I'm not sure the things of need for my panel besides what I've listed above. I'm assuming an SSR for the PID, a heat sink. Would I need an additional SSR for the PWM as well? Guess I have a lot more research to do.
 
Ssr controls one leg of 220v AC. Most designs use a contactor, power relay, or 30 amp switch to disable both phases when the element is off. Contactor or relay coil can also be tied to an e-stop. Check out some of the schematics posted on the forum.
 
Yes, I would recommend getting your design figured out once you know what sort of process you want to use. Once the design is known you'll know what parts you need. Once you know what parts you need you'll know what sized enclosure you need.

Otherwise you're working backwards. Sort of like asking how big of a toolbox you need to carry all your tools when you don't know what tools you need yet. ;)

Kal
 
Kal. Rather than use a 4 prong outlet/plug for a panel, could you just hardware the cable from you main breaker to the control panel?
 
You can hardwire a power cord to the control panel, but hardwiring anything to your breaker panel is a massive can of worms:

If/when you hardwire to your breaker panel everything hardwired in (ie: the whole control panel) now becomes part of the electrical structure of the house and to be correct has to be done 100% to code. If you reno your house the electrical inspector doesn't care what type of stereo or lamps you plug into your outlets. But if you hardware anything in, then the items have to be part of the inspection. In the case of the control panel they would want specific certifications to make sure it passes. That costs many thousands of dollars.

IMHO the fact that you're asking if it's ok means you really should not be doing it.

Just my 2 cents.

Kal
 
kal said:
You can hardwire a power cord to the control panel, but hardwiring anything to your breaker panel is a massive can of worms:

If/when you hardwire to your breaker panel everything hardwired in (ie: the whole control panel) now becomes part of the electrical structure of the house and to be correct has to be done 100% to code.

IMHO the fact that you're asking if it's ok means you really should not be doing it.

Kal

I'm not going to be doing it. One of my close friends is an experience electrician. He's the one who'll be doing it. I'd planned on doing everything to code.
 
I don't think you understand the point I was trying to make. Every device you hardwire into your house electrical grid must meet all sorts of specific certifications that you likely won't meet regardless of who does the wiring unless you're very careful with the choice of parts you use.

I highly suggest you don't do this. You're trying to save about $50 in plugs by directly hardwiring to the electrical panel and causing all sorts of complexities with inspectors/permits? (Since you say you want to do it all by the book). I don't understand the logic in that.

At the end of the day the choice is yours of course.

Kal
 
No I'm not doing it to save the cost of the outlet. I just though it would be a cleaner looking setup if I could hardware the control panel and have it built into the wall, rather than bolting it to the wall.
 
Hardwiring correctly and to code would require the thing you build to most likely to be CSA/UL certified and approved and/or all the parts inside would have to be CSA/UL certified/approved.

The reason you can't just wire anything into your electrical grid is the same reason you're not allowed to "make" your own light switches or electrical sockets or similar.

If you ever have any issues or problems and (heaven forbid) the house burns down due to a failed part or faulty wiring and you did not have sign-off by inspectors and permitting agents, your insurance company is not going to pay you.

Kal
 
kal said:
Hardwiring correctly and to code would require the thing you build to most likely to be CSA/UL certified and approved and/or all the parts inside would have to be CSA/UL certified/approved.

The reason you can't just wire anything into your electrical grid is the same reason you're not allowed to "make" your own light switches or electrical sockets or similar.

If you ever have any issues or problems and (heaven forbid) the house burns down due to a failed part or faulty wiring and you did not have sign-off by inspectors and permitting agents, your insurance company is not going to pay you.

Kal

Ok thanks. Sounds like a whole lot of extra work. Thanks for all the help really appreciate it!
 
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