Extract brewing - chill haze and dos and don'ts

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PJ912

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I'm brewing extract kits, basically 3kg LDM with whatever hops, yeast and some steeped grain. 10litre boil topped up with 10litres of water. Getting chill haze lately and a bit of turbidity and flavor definition is out.

Questions:
1. I've varied the amount from 1-3 kg of malt in the boil. As you usually add malt or adjuncts to a kit brew and never have chill haze, is it the boil that plays with the proteins?
2. Following on from that thought, Can you just hop the water in the boil and add malt afterwards? It obviously seems that it's better to mix them both in the boil, but can it be done the other way? The water would be like hop syrup?
3. How does the volume of the boil affect hop bitterness and flavours? Would a 5litre 1kg malt boil work just as well? Cold break would be easier that way.

Trying to keep it easy whilst creating my own flavours. Comments and answers appreciated!
 
Not sure on #1, but #2 is no, boiling just hops and water with no malt will not get the hop utilization you are looking for. Chemistry I'm not really up on yet involved, but sure someone more knowledgeable than me will chime in on why. On #3 the larger the boil with malt in some quantity with hops you get more hop utilization as more hop acids can be "absorbed" by the wort, especially when compared to a partial boil method. Hope that helps and hopefully someone with more technical expertise can add to and correct me.
 
Chill haze is not a flaw. It will drop out after a week or two in the fridge. Most beers will have it. Chilling your wort rapidly after the boil to the low 60Fs seems to help it drop out of the finished beer faster. You can also try Clarity Ferm, an enzyme that is said to eliminate chill haze proteins. I haven't trird it so cannot comment further.
 
Thanks guys, yeah I'm working in my cold break and looking at getting some Irish moss. I've tended to just strain the whole boil into my fermenter and top with water then try and chill -- expecting the stuff to drop out. Last brew I added a bowl of ice at flame out and that dropped the temp more quickly but still not enough.
Seems some people are advocating late addition of malt for extract brews and apparently this doesnt affect the hop utilisation. see thread on baderbrewing. will try that next time. I'll also try not to transfer the trub to the fermenter.
 
I don't filter my wort in any way, nor do I separate out the trub/coldbreak going into my fermenters. My beers are all crystal clear after the chill haze drops out. I do use Whirlfloc in the last 5 minutes of the boil. I've cold crashed with gelatin only a couple of times when dealing with powdery yeast.
 
I cold crash in a big plastic tub from Walmart with ice.

Just so you can't say nobody mentioned it, some styles will always have a hazy appearance, but not due to chill haze. Hefeweizens often have a protein haze and are by definition served with yeast in the glass; wits have a starch-and-protein haze; heavily dry hopped beers like American IPAs often have a haze. In none of these instances is haze considered a flaw.
 
In my extract brews,I boil 2.5-3 gallons of water then add 1.5lb of plain DM for hop additions. At flame out,I add the remaining 1.5lbs of DME & all the LME. Stir to mix well,cover & steep for 15 minutes. The boil is still 180F+ at that point,& pasteurization happens about 162F.
Chilling the hot wort down to pitch temp in 20 minutes or less will greatly reduce or elliminate chill haze come fridge time. Give the bottles 3-4 weeks at room temp to carb & condition on average for average gravity ales. Then at least a week fridge time to get carbonation in the head space into solution. This also gives chill haze time to settle out as well. 2 weeks fridge time gives thicker head & longer lasting carbonation.
 
I tend to put the bottles in the fridge the night before, so will try and fit some in for some fridge lagering.

With a cold break, why not dump everything in the fermenter and drop a big lump of ice in? Or a bag of commercial ice cubes? I've heard people are worried about germs but its only ice from tapwater and I fill up with tapwater anyways?

If I want be anal I could even use boiled tapwater to make the ice and rinse off the outside with boiling water but don't see the point. Is this a "don't"?
 
If you're doing partial boils then using ice for some of your top-up water is certainly an option. Of course boiling it would be the safest way to go.

Chill haze simply takes longer than overnight to fall out. Your best option on that case would probably be Clarity Ferm, as it claims to eliminate the proteins that cause chill haze in the first place.
 
Tanks all. Trying gelatine for the first time in 20 years, a few days before bottling. Got a partial cold break with this brew.
Next brew will try 0.5kg malt in the (partial) boil and add the test at flame out. Then add a big chunk of ice or two, maybe leave some trub behind.
Unfortunately the results are months away....
 
I tend to put the bottles in the fridge the night before, so will try and fit some in for some fridge lagering.

With a cold break, why not dump everything in the fermenter and drop a big lump of ice in? Or a bag of commercial ice cubes? I've heard people are worried about germs but its only ice from tapwater and I fill up with tapwater anyways?

If I want be anal I could even use boiled tapwater to make the ice and rinse off the outside with boiling water but don't see the point. Is this a "don't"?

I put ice in my PV and pour the hot wort over it. I cool the wort in about
2 minutes so it is the fastest cold break you can get. I personally believe thie whole BS about wort chillers is just that BS. I would like to have nickle for everyime I have heard some one say they would never use ice cause your wort will get infected yet they use the SAME water as make up water.
 
I don't use a wort chiller. I use an ice bath and get 5 gallons down to 60F or lower in 20 minutes - that's about the same time most people with wort chillers say it takes. It takes a lot of ice and it's a lot of work - I agitate (spin/counterspin) the kettle constantly, but I get a good result. I get a strong cold break and (I believe) a reduced chill haze time. Eventually I will get an immersion chiller and I'll probably think it's the most bestest thing ever, but for now what I'm doing works.
 
Ok. Tried gelatine in the fermenter a few days out from bottling my last brew after only getting a weak cold break. didn't really do anything.

Today I did the usual 10L boil and bought a 5kg bag of ice. Cold break and pitching temp of 25deg C in 3 minutes!

10L boil flame out at 50 mins. 10 mins resting then I put all if the boil in the fermenter, left behind some hops though.

Added extra fermentables then added 5kg commercial ice. Went cloudy with lots of floaties, some being hops, stirred and 15 mins later its looking pretty clear, with only small particles still suspended.

$4 worth of ice saves time and water and looking weird while nursing my wort trying to get its temperature down! ;-)

Still a month before I can confirm chill haze success....
 
You can have crystal clear wort, and crystal clear fermented beer going into your bottles, and you'll still have chill haze! Gelatin will not pull it out. A fast cold break seems to reduce the time it takes to drop out in the fridge, but we're talking about a week instead of two to three weeks. (I say seems to because I haven't done a side-by-side test. My reported results are anecdotal)

In this thread about Clarity Ferm a user reports excellent results. I'm not shilling for it, it's just that you have a very specific problem and it seems like Clarity Ferm might be your best bet. It's still a pretty new product so there isn't a whole lot of user reports on it. Most of the other threads focus it's gluten reducing effect. Sooner or later I will try it myself and report.
 
I've just been able to try my previous brew (Nelson Sauvign APA) which had a weak cold break and where I used gelatine. It's not crystal clear but that's not a problem, it is certainly better and acceptable to me, plus it tastes great!

My Amber IPA was crystal clear in the fermenter before the yeast started working. There was a thick layer of proteins at the bottom of the fermenter. I say this because it looks different to the usual yeast sediment at the end of fermentation. Have to assume that this will drop back out after the yeast (1056) have had their fun.

Will report back. Cheers.
 
So, amber IPA turned out more like an APA. Certainly not clear but still good enough. Beginning to think my previous issues were a slight infection or too much drub and grains passed over from the boil.
 
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