Saison with Honey, original recipe seeking feedback

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tbrown4

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I want to get one more saison brewed this summer. I've been wanting to make a saison in the 7.5%ABV area that's relatively light in color, with galaxy hops and honey.

Here's what I've got so far:
Original Gravity: 1.076 (1.048 - 1.065)
Terminal Gravity: 1.019 (1.002 - 1.012)
Color: 5.05 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 7.57% (5.0% - 7.0%)
Bitterness: 32.6 (20.0 - 35.0)

Ingredients:
1.0*lb 2-Row Caramel Malt 10L (steep)
6.0*lb Dry Extra Light Extract
0.5*oz Australian Galaxy (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 45.0*m
0.5*oz Australian Galaxy (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 15.0*m
0.0*tsp Irish Moss - added during boil, boiled 15.0*m
3.0*lb Honey
1.0*ea WYeast 3711 French Saison

I don't want this thing to be overly bitter, but I've also been wanting to use galaxy hops as I've really enjoyed beers with it. Is a 45 min addition worth doing? I see that at 60 min it may push beyond my preferred IBU range. Or, should I just go with more of a different strain of hop and do a full 60 min with a smaller late aroma addition? Or, do you think the perceived bitterness wont be as much due to somewhat large malt bill?

The honey I plan to add after fermentation has begun. Did some reading on brewing with honey and this seems to be the general consensus, no? I understand that I wont be able to get a real accurate gravity reading as a result.

The yeast was harvested from the first saison, which I just bottled a few days ago. It's washed. I plan to make a little yeast starter to wake it up.

I could be brewing as soon as this weekend. Thanks in advance for any feedback!
 
32.6 IBUs is pretty low for a 1.076 beer, but not too low. If you are really wanting to capture the flavor and aroma from the galaxy hops, I would move the 45 minute addition to flameout, and use some other high alpha for bittering. As far as when to add your bittering hops, 60 or 45 is fine but you need a smaller addition at 60 so it is prefereed. The honey should be fine to add after high krausen. It seems to me that with 3# of honey in there it should ferment lower than 1.019, but i may be wrong. Overall sounds good!
 
Thanks for the feedback!

I changed the recipe up a little. Using 2# honey malt to steep. Changed the hops totally. Using 1 oz Saaz for bittering at 60 or 45, and 1 oz Citra for aroma at 5. For the honey I went with orange blossom.

If all goes well with the yeast starter I just kicked off, this baby should be brewed tomorrow morning.
 
Awesome! The honey malt will give you quite a bit more honey flavor than the actual honey, but 2# is a ton for a 5 gallon batch. Just my .02, but 1/2# would probably give a better result.
 
smokinj said:
Awesome! The honey malt will give you quite a bit more honey flavor than the actual honey, but 2# is a ton for a 5 gallon batch. Just my .02, but 1/2# would probably give a better result.

Would the flavors from 2# of honey malt be too much? Like, cloyingly sweet?
 
Would the flavors from 2# of honey malt be too much? Like, cloyingly sweet?

Yes, way to much. Cut it back to 4-6 oz. Brew software does not understand 3711. It will finish way lower than the software predicts, so take that into account with your OG. It usually finishes very low. Even an extract brew should finish at something like 1.004-1.005. Which will give more Abv than you are looking for.
 
beergolf said:
Yes, way to much. Cut it back to 4-6 oz. Brew software does not understand 3711. It will finish way lower than the software predicts, so take that into account with your OG. It usually finishes very low. Even an extract brew should finish at something like 1.004-1.005. Which will give more Abv than you are looking for.

Hmm, ok. Ill consider that. Smokinj, thoughts?
 
32.6 IBUs is pretty low for a 1.076 beer, but not too low.

If you believe the hops chart that actually falls right into evenly balanced. With adding honey and using 3711 I'd expect that saison to go dry which would make the hop bitterness more pronounced.

hopsgraph1.jpg
 
I'm in no position to argue with the hop chart. You are absolutely right. I must have been in an IPA frame of mind when I made that comment.
 
Jukas said:
If you believe the hops chart that actually falls right into evenly balanced. With adding honey and using 3711 I'd expect that saison to go dry which would make the hop bitterness more pronounced.

Thanks! That chart looks pretty helpful!
 
Ill take a starting gravity reading. How can I get an accurate reading after honey is added, and again when fermentation slows to a crawl to figure out the final ABV?
 
The gravity added by the honey is more of an assumption than a measurement. I don't have beersmith handy, but if you are using brewing software, and honey is entered in your recipe, then it will calculate it for you.
 
Honey typically adds 7 gravity points/#. Remember to take that into account when you are taking your OG reading, too.
 
smokinj said:
The gravity added by the honey is more of an assumption than a measurement. I don't have beersmith handy, but if you are using brewing software, and honey is entered in your recipe, then it will calculate it for you.

Im using BeerToolsPro. I have the honey in my recipe, but there's no option for adding in to primary. Currently in the software I have it as a late kettle addition. Would the final abv be the same regardless of when the addition happened in relation to the boil?

smokinj said:
Honey typically adds 7 gravity points/#. Remember to take that into account when you are taking your OG reading, too.

I could see this info being helpful. Thanks!
 
Yep. It will be the same regardless of when it is added. Sugars don't boil away. To get your actual OG just add 7 pts/# to your post chill measurement.
 
smokinj said:
Yep. It will be the same regardless of when it is added. Sugars don't boil away. To get your actual OG just add 7 pts/# to your post chill measurement.

Great. That all makes sense. I appreciate all the help.
 
So, if I reduce the amount of honey malt to say...0.5#, should I increase the DME? I could by as much as 13 oz.
 
That's totally at your discretion. It will gain you some fermentables(alcohol), but that's about it. The beer will be great either way.
 
smokinj said:
That's totally at your discretion. It will gain you some fermentables(alcohol), but that's about it. The beer will be great either way.

Thanks. I appreciate the encouragement!
 
Brewed this mornin. Came out to 1.054, prior to honey which will go in at peak krausen. Heres hoping my yeast starter was good!
 
It was chugging along quite well yesterday. This is a huge relief to me, being my first attempt at washing, starting and re-using yeast.

So at peak krausen I'm going to add the honey. For this process I have two questions:

Is there anything I need to do to prep the honey prior to adding it to primary?
Do I stir the beer while adding the honey, after adding, both or not at all?

I'm also thinking about racking off one gallon after primary is complete and adding brettanomyces, lactobacillus, and pediococcus which I harvested, washed and fed from a Russian River Supplication. This is the mad scientist in me. I've really enjoyed some of the tart and sour saisons. Any thoughts on this with my beer?
 
Sorry, probably a little late to be of much help, but the only thing you might do to the honey is warm it up so it pours easier. I would not recommend stirring. I see no reason not to sour a gallon of it. Glad it's all going well.
 
Update. Yesterday it was at 1.013, today it's down to 1.010. Going to keep checking over the next few days. It seemed very happy with the honey. Smells really nice.

Continuing in my crazy mind are some ideas for secondary small batch treatments (1 gallon each)....I had posted about adding brettanomyces, lactobacillus, and pediococcus. What about only brettanomyces? I've not worked with any of those guys, but I'm willing to take the risk on a gallon.

Also...I've had a thought on doing secondary with chardonnay soaked oak chips. I've got white and I've got French medium toast on hand. Got this idea from drinking a Nebraska Hop God (IPA aged in chardonnay barrels, I think). I think this treatment could be interesting in this saison. I do feel that with oak chips, I'd go with a very small amount as I've heard and tasted undrinkable over-oaked brews.

If I did both of these, it would leave me with roughly 3 gallons un-treated for base taste testing.

Any thoughts or tips would be greatly appreciated!
 
Brett saisons seem to be growing in poplularity lately. Boulevard's Saison Brett is very good. Not sure which brett you'd want to use. Do you plan to buy it or use dregs?
 
smokinj said:
Brett saisons seem to be growing in poplularity lately. Boulevard's Saison Brett is very good. Not sure which brett you'd want to use. Do you plan to buy it or use dregs?

Probably dregs
 
once I have determined fermentation has slowed, I'm considering moving this to secondary to get it off yeast and to clarify a little bit.

how much longer should I let it sit and rest prior to bottling?

Thoughts?
 
Just moved this to secondary. Smells amazing. Light citrus, honey earthy sweet. Initial tastes are good as well. A tad boozy up front, but the middle and finish are dry, crisp with light honey impressions and citrus aromas. Honestly....it may not need too much more time to rest. Going to let it clarify a little bit then go to bottles. Looks like it hit 9.5% abv.
 
A tad boozy up front, but the middle and finish are dry, crisp with light honey impressions and citrus aromas. Honestly....it may not need too much more time to rest. Going to let it clarify a little bit then go to bottles. Looks like it hit 9.5% abv.

Ah, the wonderful thing about 3711 - you can hit 9.5% and seem only a tad boozy ;)

First 7.9% beer I've had be completely drinkable and amazing at 2.5 weeks in the bottle.
 
Is this the case with the yeast strain?

Yes. 3711 is an amazing yeast. It always finishes low, yet somehow maintains a nice mouthfeel. When using this yeast most brew software does not predict FG very well. You have to assume it will finish very low so uou can calculate the ABV.
 
I am very interested in honey flavored beers, have a honey brown in the fermenter right now but added the honey at the end of the boil as opposed to after fermentation started. Now I want to try your recipe, popped it into BeerSmith 2 and boggled as it showed estimated ABV well above 9%. Tweaked the dry extract down by 1lb and 1lb less on the honey and think I have the numbers where I like them. For the honey I will use Tupelo as that is my favorite!

I think this will be my next brew or maybe I will convert and do it as my first all grain BIAB. Thanks for sharing your recipe.

Honey Saison
Type: Extract
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 2.30 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Volume 2.08 gal
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 4.75 gal

Ingredients
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 1 11.8 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.9 %
5 lbs Extra Light Dry Extract (3.0 SRM) Dry Extract 3 58.8 %
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 4 15.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Galaxy [14.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 8.5 IBUs
0.25 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 6 -
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml] Yeast 7 -
2 lbs Honey (1.0 SRM) Sugar 8 23.5 %

Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.006 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.0 %
Bitterness: 24.3 IBUs
Calories: 151.6 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 6.2 SRM
 
Hello all.......new to the site......brewing a honey hefenweizen next week. I've primarily only brewed only ipas so I'm interested to see how it goes. I'm using raw honey......and I've read that I should probably add it with 5 to 10 minutes left in the boil......to get just a little aroma/ flavor...........
 
I just brewed a saison and added one lb of honey at flame out and lb of corn sugar into primary after fermentation. About 9 abv, crisp beer light in color.
 
Hello all.......new to the site......brewing a honey hefenweizen next week. I've primarily only brewed only ipas so I'm interested to see how it goes. I'm using raw honey......and I've read that I should probably add it with 5 to 10 minutes left in the boil......to get just a little aroma/ flavor...........

The later you add the honey the more flavor/aroma you'll save. If you want to add it in the kettle, I'd do it at flameout.
 
Wanted to post another follow up. Just opened a bottle to check carb progress. It's carbed quite well, but I will add dextrine to the next batch to and some decent head retention.

Very tart and citrusy up front, decent peppery tart middle and a long slow orangey sweet finish. It's a sipper right now as its got greater than average booziness. I think this could age nicely.
 
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