Yet another Long Lager Lag question

I brewed up a 10 gallon batch of my favorite blonde ale this weekend and this time I split it into two 5 gallon batches. In one I did the usual ale and in the other I used WYeast 2007 pilsen Lager. The ale is fermenting as usual.

For the Lager, I did a 2L starter from a smack pack. The yeast was smacked about 5 hours before pitching into the starter. It only swelled a small amount but I wasn't concerned because it's a lager yeast. The starter was on a stir plate for about 21 hours at room temp (68deg) then I put it in the fermentation cooler for about an hour at 60 degrees. the entire starter was swirled up and was pitched into 5 gallons of wort that was at 62-64deg. I ran pure O2 for 1min 30 seconds to aerate the 5 gallons before pitching.

I put the fermenter in the cooler and cooled it at 4 deg/day down to 50. It's been 2 1/2 days (60 hours) and no signs of fermentation. No airlock activity, no bubbls or krausen on top, nothing. In fact, the wort is beginning to stratify with a more clear layer forming on top.

My plan is to take a gravity reading when I get home from work today and see if there is any fermentation taking place. If not, what should I do?
My thoughts are:

1. re-aerate for 30 seconds with O2
2. Warm the fermenter to 58 degrees
3. stir up the yeast and trub

Any other ideas or suggestions? Do I need to go pick up some dry lager yeast and pitch it? I'm inexperienced with Lagers so I'm not sure if I should be concerned yet or not. The only other Lager I've brewed took off within 24 hours.

Everythings low and slow in the cold dark of the lagering fridge...Just relax...the yeast know what they need to do, and will do it...Yeast rarely lets us down...it's not like it was 30 years. Modern yeast works, just not often on the timeframe we want it to. Me personally I'd check back in 2 weeks or whenever I was going to do my diacytal rest. I've never had yeast not work...so I don't tend to worry.

Sounds about right for a lager, mine always take a couple days before there are visible signs etc.

Sounds right. The yeast will start reproducing and this can seem like a delay in fermenation, but they are really getting ready to do their thing. The lower temps make them work slower, so it's not quite like an ale fermentation.

Do you remember the production date on the package of yeast? Also, what was the OG?

Sounds like your starter was too small. You can greatly reduce your lag time by pitching the proper amount of yeast. Check this out if you haven't already: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

I don't know the production date on the yeast package. The OG was 1.046. According to MrMalty's pitching rate calculator, I'd need about 3.5L starter but my stir plate won't work with a growler due to the convex bottoms of those types of containers. My flask is 2000ML so I'm limited by that for starter size. I could have pitched 2 packs into the starter and met the recomended rate but I only had one...maybe next time.

It sounds like I need to RDWHAHB. I just didn't want to miss an oportunity to "fix" things if they were broke. I'll relax and check it after 7 or 8 days.

thanks

Mine took a little over four days to get going, I was very nervous but it eventually took off and everything turned out fine.

You should be fine. Just take the experience and use it in the future. That is what is most important.

I didn't do anything and this morning signs of fermentation appeared. All is well. Thanks.

Sarrsipius said:

1. re-aerate for 30 seconds with O2
2. Warm the fermenter to 58 degrees
3. stir up the yeast and trub

Click to expand...

Jesus Christ (a little out of breath from not being able to get to bottom of the page fast enough)....thank god I got to the end of the thread to find out you didn't do these things.

You deserve an explination for why it worked out. I guarantee this...it is NOT because of RDWHAHB. You my friend, set yourself up for success, and clearly didn't even know it.

The first thing you did right was make a starter with liquid yeast. I have played around a bit with the pitching calculator, and I have found that 2 packets of fresh liquid yeast pitched into about 1.1/1.25 Liters on a stir plate is perfect for a lager between 1.048 and 1.054. You used one packet, but a 2Liter starter. If you gave it a shake each time you walked by, I think that would still have put you in the ball park.

Next, you added pure O2 prior to pitching. It took me over two years to figure out the importance of this step. I go on record saying that O2 is why homebrew tastes like homebrew and commercial beer tastes like commercial beer. O2 closes that gap, and makes homebrew taste like FRESH commercial beer (a good thing). "Giving the carboy a good shake" is not the same thing. Personally, I use 60 seconds through a 2 micron stone, and I know you can actually add too much oxygen, but I do not think your 90 second method is enough to cause a problem.

Long story short.... your process for yeast health was awesome. Adding more O2 that long after fermentation started would have been a disaster (adding more O2 about 12 hours after pitching is an exception, and should be reserved for huge beers....as Revvy can explain better if needed.) Pitching more dry yeast would have been a waste of dry yeast. And definately don't start cranking up the temperature unless you just plan on leaving it at 58. But why the delay?

I see two reasons that "signs" of fermentation took a while to appear (a while as compared to ales). The fermentation is colder. Being colder, it has more capacity to absorb CO2 into solution. Therefore, it takes longer for those little bubbles to start showing themselves. CO2 is still being made, but it is being absorbed. Obviously it can take a few days for the liquid to become saturated and start to off gas. I believe the second reason "signs" were delayed was the O2 injection. From what I understand, the yeast will first turn to the O2 in solution to facilitate health and growth, and then move on to the sugars and begin fermentation. When O2 is not provided, the yeast have no choice but to start working on the sugars. "Awesome! Krausen 30 minutes after pitching! (not something to brag about). Less growth = more stress on yeast = more less than desirable esters. Again, O2 was a great move.

The only thing I think you might be able to improve is your pitching temperature. You will hear lots of opinions about pitching a lager warm vs pitching a lager cold, but I am really from the school of pitch cold (46F), and raise up to the fermentation temperature (50F) over 36 hours. It minimizes off flavors and makes for a cleaner fermentation overall. You certainly don't want to be bouncing things around, because the yeast will produce esters at the higher temperatures (58F) that will not be cleaned up if immidiately cooled back down. Some who pitch warm argue it gives the benefit of more growth. Yes, more growth occurs, but it is the wrong kind of growth and it is occuring at the wrong temperature for the yeast. Pitching warm will ferment a beer, but it is begging for more off flavors. Pitch the right amount of yeast, pitch it cold, and leave it be once you reach ferm temp.

But overall, great job.

Joe

Hey thanks for the detailed response! I too am glad I didn't do anything. This lager is going to be a great learning tool. I've been using O2 for all my ales for about the last 15 batches and I do notice an improvement in the final product so +1 on that advise.

HBT saves the day again!