Extract/AG Rivalry

I've been reading tons of threads on the White House beer being made and all the negative comments about the extracts used. I don't understand what the big deal is. I've only been brewing for about a year and half now and this weekend will be around my 15th batch of beer. I started out with a mr beer kit my brothers bought me for a wedding gift. Like most beginners I started out with all extract and I have now done 2, 5 gallon AG batches but really I mostly just partial mash now. Honestly some of the best beer i've made was without following a real recipe and just trying a few different base malts, specialty grains and hops with some LME. I read alot of these "Pros" downing guys with extract recipes and it reminds me when I used to Snowboard and all the skiers hated snowboarders and vice versa. I think getting my brothers together with me and making a batch, all while drinking and having a good time is what really makes homebrewing a wonderful thing. Cheers

I love making beer and learning more about it. Doesn't matter what method.

I think process is much more important. Some of my best beers were extract, but those beers I had fresh extract , spot on temp control, and the patience to wait until they were ready. But with that being said the feeling you get from taking a bag of grain, water, hops, and yeast and making the beer cant be beat. I would love to do all-grain everytime, but with kids the time doesnt always allow for that. Knowing I can make great extract batches is just a bonus.

I started extract like most, then switched to AG 3 years ago or so. I like AG more, and its so much less expensive than extract. To each his own though, its all about what you want/like.

I was a bit surprised to see White House beer recipes were an extract base but hey...
Maybe guy making the beer hasn't made the leap to all grain (heard it was the White House Chefs making and President purchased kit),
Maybe it's a time issue (I could pound out an extract batch on a weeknight after work... not so much with an All-Grain).
whatever the reason, whatever the method, I think it's great...

I don't see why people knock on extract. Ingredients are just ingredients, but the brewer's skill is what really separates the men from the boys, so to speak.

Like I've said before, I've had EXCELLENT extract brews and TERRIBLE all-grain brews. It's all in the brewer's skill.

mlyday said:

I think process is much more important. Some of my best beers were extract, but those beers I had fresh extract , spot on temp control, and the patience to wait until they were ready. But with that being said the feeling you get from taking a bag of grain, water, hops, and yeast and making the beer cant be beat. I would love to do all-grain everytime, but with kids the time doesnt always allow for that. Knowing I can make great extract batches is just a bonus.

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I have my first baby coming at the end of this month and doing a all grain batch will be tough for a awhile after. Hell I gotta keep all my beer talk to a minimum around my wife right now anyways, she's cool with my homebrewing but at 9 months pregnant anything will set her off, lol

The comment was made in another thread with the same topic that beginners tend to start with extract, and being beginners will tend to make more mistakes in the process, whereas an AG brewer with 3+ yrs of experience will make far less mistakes. The results of the novice extract brew will inevitably be lower quality than the experienced brewers version. So logically its not necessarily valid to say extract is not as good since the brewer has less experience and may not fully understand the brewing process. Its the same in baking, cooking, BBQing, experts tend to use the best ingredients, but even if they dont they have the experience to make the meal delicious regardless of ingredients because they understand process. Additionally extract (especially LME) can has a short shelf life, so brewing with stale extract can lead to bad results. So its not an apples to apples argument. The only way to say one way or another is to be scientific and keep everything constant- same brewer, recipe, conditions, process, etc, and the only difference being AG or extract. From nearly every brewer I know they say they prefer AG, but they know they can make a dynamite brew from extract...

Personally it was disappointing to find out that the Whitehouse beers were extract. Not because there is anything wrong with extract beers, but because it is the freakin' Whitehouse - I would expect more from them. Those recipes were like the equivalent of making pie with pre-bought dough rather than rolling out your own, which is suitable for lots of situations but not in my opinion for the Whitehouse and the president of the United States.

Horseballs said:

Personally it was disappointing to find out that the Whitehouse beers were extract. Not because there is anything wrong with extract beers, but because it is the freakin' Whitehouse - I would expect more from them. Those recipes were like the equivalent of making pie with pre-bought dough rather than rolling out your own, which is suitable for lots of situations but not in my opinion for the Whitehouse and the president of the United States.

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Who cares as long as the pie tastes awesome?

starrfish said:

I was a bit surprised to see White House beer recipes were an extract base but hey...
Maybe guy making the beer hasn't made the leap to all grain (heard it was the White House Chefs making and President purchased kit),
Maybe it's a time issue (I could pound out an extract batch on a weeknight after work... not so much with an All-Grain).
whatever the reason, whatever the method, I think it's great...

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I still can't figure out why folks EXPECTED it to be all grain? Do folks not realize that large numbers of ag brewing in this hobby is a relatively RECENT phenomenon? And despite what it looks like in online communities, the MAJORITY of the world's homebrewers are still brewing extract beers, and kits at that.

Especially starting out. It doesn't take much reading of the beginner forums to see that only about 1 in 10 first time brewers starts brewing all grain from the get go.

Everyone else is doing Mr Beer, or cooper's kits.

Easy all grain brewing is really recent....it really came about when folks figured out that you can do it with a turkey fryer and a cooler modified with a toilet braid. That really was less than a decade ago.

Papazain's ZAP a PAP system, or oven mashing, didn't really catch on all that much. Just with real die-hards.

What really sparked "easy AG" was when John Palmer wrote about the Australian Brew in the Bag method in BYO magazine in 2009

Those were the two things that have "democratized" all grain brewing....making it cheap, less scary and accessable.

But it's still going to be a minority of the hobby.

I don't get why folks think that every homebrewer on the planet wants to "make the leap" to all grain like it's some holy grail or something. Not everyone necessarily wants to take the time or make the commitment to brewing that way.

But I still don't get why folks assume that the white house beers weren't going to be basic extract batches. I would have been pleasantly surprised if it wasn't.

Good beer can be made with extract, and so can bad beer be made with extract. The same applies to all grain. If good technique is used either can make great brew. A good recipe, good sanitization, pitching the proper amount of healthy yeast and fermentation temp control will go a long way towards making good beer.

The extract vs AG debate reminds me of when I started woodworking. The purists would all say you can only make good furniture if you hand cut dovetails. Guess what.... they make a very good jig that will do perfect dovetails using a router. Two ways to do things. A good craftsmancan use either to make the final product. A poor craftsman can make junk either way.

beergolf said:

Good beer can be made with extract, and so can bad beer be made with extract. The same applies to all grain. If good technique is used either can make great brew. A good recipe, good sanitization, pitching the proper amount of healthy yeast and fermentation temp control will go a long way towards making good beer.

The extract vs AG debate reminds me of when I started woodworking. The purists would all say you can only make good furniture if you hand cut dovetails. Guess what.... they make a very good jig that will do perfect dovetails using a router. Two ways to do things. A good craftsmancan use either to make the final product. A poor craftsman can make junk either way.

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Exactly. The methods, or whether or not it's extract or AG is not what makes great beer. The Brewer should make great beer with whatever materials at hand.

I've tasted some great extracts and I've tasted some ****ty all grain batches. It all depends on the brewer and his process. Not whether it's an AG or an extract beer. Ag is not the holy grail of brewing. If you refuse to read a hydromter, don't pay attention to temp control, don't make a yeast starter for liquid, or pitch the right amount of yeast, and follow the 1-2-3 rule regardless of whether the yeast lagged for 72 hours or not, you're going to make crappy beer regardless of it being an extract or ag batch..

And if you do all those things that the AG brewer didn't, and use the freshest extract and do a full boil and late extract addition, you're going to make great if not award winning beers. It's that simple. I think people who blame extract for their crappy beers are copping out, and maybe should considering mastering them instead of thinking ag is going to be the answer to good tasting beer....

AG gives you more control. If you do not know what you are trying to control then what is the point?

I have had some GREAT extract brews and I have personally made some gawd awful AG brews.

Brew on! (and get one for me.)

Zamial said:

AG gives you more control. If you do not know what you are trying to control then what is the point?

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We still get AG brewers on here who we have to remind to use a hydrometer rather than an airlock to know what their beer is doing. Or any of the other basic process things that EVERY brewer should know/be doing regardless of what the brewer is using. Which shocks me because I use a hydromter (actually a refractometer these days) to gauge my mashing along the way. I couldn't ag brew without checking pre-boil and post boil gravities.

Revvy thanks for that...As I sit here loling all I can think is, "Why so serious?" which just makes me lol more...

Zamial said:

AG gives you more control. If you do not know what you are trying to control then what is the point?

I have had some GREAT extract brews and I have personally made some gawd awful AG brews.

Brew on! (and get one for me.)

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Yeah if it was a kit, but whats the difference if you buy some LME/DME, Steeping Grains and hops? Basically you've cut out the mash, but you are still going to get your own beer?

Well so far I have done 5 batches all extract, that being said I have only tried my first batch a Robust Porter. Wich is much on the bitter side wich I know what whent wrong there. As fpr the other 4 I think those are going to turn out well. Thats if I had fresh kits. AG sounds nice and I would like to try but im just getting my feet wet and enjoying my brew days with my friends and family.
And im sure its alot faster and alot less clean up than AG. But if the outcome is good beers then I'll keep the kits going. I would love to be able to watch personally some people that do AG to see if it is for me. Im more of a person that can learn on more complicated things if im able to see it being done and can ask 100 questions. Cheers all!

EnjoyGoodBeer said:

Well so far I have done 5 batches all extract, that being said I have only tried my first batch a Robust Porter. Wich is much on the bitter side wich I know what whent wrong there. As fpr the other 4 I think those are going to turn out well. Thats if I had fresh kits. AG sounds nice and I would like to try but im just getting my feet wet and enjoying my brew days with my friends and family.
And im sure its alot faster and alot less clean up than AG. But if the outcome is good beers then I'll keep the kits going. I would love to be able to watch personally some people that do AG to see if it is for me. Im more of a person that can learn on more complicated things if im able to see it being done and can ask 100 questions. Cheers all!

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I was the same way, but I found out at my LBHS that we had a local homebrew club and they let me join them on their brew day and I learned a lot seeing some experienced guys doing all grain. If you are like me I don't really have many friends joining me to make beer(but they love to come and drink it) So maybe you have a local club that might help you the same way.

Baileyforlife said:

Yeah if it was a kit, but whats the difference if you buy some LME/DME, Steeping Grains and hops? Basically you've cut out the mash, but you are still going to get your own beer?

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Yes. You still have control. Of the recipe...Of some of the process.

What Zamiel said was with AG you get MORE control. It doesn't mean Better control, or better beer, just that rather than using extract that someone already made, you're making you're own first. And you can control how fermentable it will be, what exactly goes into it. Most extract is not pure, it's a blend of different grains, that you have no control over. All munich or all marris otter for example extract is difficult to find. So you're at the mercy of the maltser for that.

As is the fermentability of the extract. By adjusting temp, you can make you final wort have different body. Again you're at the mercy of that when the majority is someone else's extract.

But like he also said, if you're a sloppy brewer then it really doesn't matter if you are an allgrain brewer....A careful extract brewer is going to smoke you.

unionrdr said:

@bailey4life-That's what I keep tryin to say so many times when noobz come into a post saying you don't need a hydrometer with extract beers. Kit or my own recipe,I always maintain my process. Period. No exceptions. Ever.
This must be gotten down to habit or you'll screw up on the one where you really can't afford to. And all because you got lazy. that's a bad habit to get into.
I do my own recipies with extracts,so a good process is needed to get good beer,including my hydrometer. Not to mention the obvious of not having instructions with OG/FG to follow. I have to do all that & keep good notes for next time.
Why so serious-a? Because it's all-part-of the plan. I'm just a mutt chacin cars...I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. But I know how to chace it,ya know what I'm sayin?

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Yes I realized that after I replied Process is key. I've played around with a lot of my batches, but I always did a OG/FG reading, paid attention to my temps from boil to pitching, and I try to keep ferm temps right. I think you are missing out if you don't do that. I will tell you right now i'm still a Noob through and through, but i'm getting better :fro:

IN the past nine months, I've done both. I prefer all grain, just because the process is more fun, to me. whatever floats your boat and gets you happy, screw it, just do it.

We could also throw partial mash into the discussion.

That way you can use grains that need to be mashed. So it is a hybrid between AG and extract.

To each their own. I'm an all-grain brewer. I like to check in on the #homebrew tag on Twitter. Sometimes I see pictures of the stove top extract brewers and wish I could just whip up a batch without much planning. As it is now, I have to plan my batches because they take four to five hours and I have to find a day where the weather cooperates. Then, I have to haul all the equipment up from the basement. That said, I enjoy all-grain brewing much more than extract. I mostly brew my own recipes and value the ability to tweak each variable of the beer to my liking. I feel more of a connection to the ingredients and the final product. It's also nice that I can crank out an all-grain batch for $15 to $20 less than an extract batch.

I make some pretty wicked tomato sauce. I start with whole tomatoes that I fire roast, peel and seed. I stew them for a long time adding garlic, fire roasted peppers and some secret seasoning. When I make my sauce, the whole house is lifted in the scent of slow simmering goodness. The process takes a good portion of the day but is well worth it. Definitely can taste the freshness in the final product.

Then there are days that I just don't have the time to make my sauce. I head to the pantry and pull out the can of tomato paste, add a can of stewed tomatos, a little water, some oil and voila! Sauce? Yes. My sauce? No.

Baileyforlife said:

I have my first baby coming at the end of this month and doing a all grain batch will be tough for a awhile after. Hell I gotta keep all my beer talk to a minimum around my wife right now anyways, she's cool with my homebrewing but at 9 months pregnant anything will set her off, lol

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you'll be fine...babies sleep a LOT. they take a lot less time than you think. good luck!

It is important to mention that the extract available to home brewers, is a well designed, and premium crafted product. The maltsters are true pros who plan and worry from start to finish, about details of the malting, the mash, the boil and reduction procedures that few home brewers even know about. They don't just slap it together. I may be able to have more control by designing my own mash, but I will never produce the quality product with as much attention to detail that the professional maltsters can. They make a great product, but from that point it is up to the brewer.

This is BBR interview of Bob Hanson from Briess Malting explaining the malting process.
http://www.basicbrewing.com/radio/mp3/bbr08-18-05.mp3

unionrdr said:

My stove heating elements just came in,so if all works well,my 1st PM kit will be brewed this weekend.

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What kind of elements did you get - I'm looking into setting up for a full boil.

just my 2 pennies here, but i wasnt surprised at all to see the whitehouse beer being extract. The guys making the beer are CHEFS. NOT BREWMASTERS. You couldn't walk into their kitchen and make their incredible sauces and creations on YOUR first shot, why would you expect them to walk into YOUR brew house and make an all grain beer THEIR first time? I'm stupid giddy that the whitehouse is brewing at ALL, much less promoting home brewing!

I'm a relatively recent brewer, I've got about 8 batches under my belt in about 5 months, all came out awesome. I switched to all grain after 3 batches of extract, and i'm just now working the bugs out of the AG system and getting my efficiencies up. That being said I'm going to brew their recipe as extract next week, and I'm excited to not have to spend the extra 2-3 hours with mashing and cleaning etc. A one pot wonder seems like a vacation!

then i might port the beer to extract. My two highest rated beers were a golden wheat hefe kit from my LHBS (extract) and an IPA designed by Wil Wheaton (@wilw) called VandalEyesPA, which is nothing short of outstanding.

ncbrewer said:

What kind of elements did you get - I'm looking into setting up for a full boil.

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These where just replacement elements for the stove,down to one small burner & needed a couple large ones to replace burned out ones. Bur rather than being called burners,they're always called heating elements. Amazon was way cheaper than home cheapo by about 55%.

unionrdr said:

These where just replacement elements for the stove,down to one small burner & needed a couple large ones to replace burned out ones. Bur rather than being called burners,they're always called heating elements. Amazon was way cheaper than home cheapo by about 55%.

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Are they Canning Elements? I've been thinking about getting one for stove top brewing. They're supposed to work great.

Well Friday night I made the White House Honey Porter and it looked, tasted and smelled amazing. OG was 1.060. Obama's wouldn't send me any white house honey so I used some local natural honey. I used Fuggle instead of the Hallertau because I had some. I've made a porter when I was bottling my beer, and I forgot about it for about month and a half. I'm going to keg this. What would you guys recommend on how long I keep it in the secondary before kegging?

One thing I havent heard too much during the argument, and its a big reason I try to brew my batches all-grain, is the Pace of the brew day. All grain seems much more relaxed than extract. It takes a while to heat the strike water, you have a 60-90 minute mash. Im able to get other things done around the house durring those times. The brew day seems less rushed or compacted.