Blue Moon Clone
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I think the yeast strain used has also a lot to do with how opaque and thin the beer will be. S05 as an example will turn much more opaque than S04 (from my experience).
I wonder if an specific strain would be recommended for this matter. Wayne, any thoughts? Do you use S05?
I wonder if an specific strain would be recommended for this matter. Wayne, any thoughts? Do you use S05?
Wayne1
Well-Known Member
A less flocculent yeast would remain in suspension longer.
English yeast strains, such as S-04 and Windsor, flocculate faster, are a bit fruitier, and usually have a higher final gravity.
S-05 and the Chico/California ale strains are medium flocculent.
For a Blue Moon clone you do want to use a clean ale strain, all of which do tend to drop clear eventually.
The traditional Belgian yeasts have quite a bit of phenolics and do not flocculate as much as the cleaner strains. Added to the wheat you do tend to get a very cloudy beer.
For fun, you can try blending a couple of strains of yeast. Maybe an English strain with an American strain to try to get less flocculation and will end at a higher gravity, so you can get more mouthfeel.
English yeast strains, such as S-04 and Windsor, flocculate faster, are a bit fruitier, and usually have a higher final gravity.
S-05 and the Chico/California ale strains are medium flocculent.
For a Blue Moon clone you do want to use a clean ale strain, all of which do tend to drop clear eventually.
The traditional Belgian yeasts have quite a bit of phenolics and do not flocculate as much as the cleaner strains. Added to the wheat you do tend to get a very cloudy beer.
For fun, you can try blending a couple of strains of yeast. Maybe an English strain with an American strain to try to get less flocculation and will end at a higher gravity, so you can get more mouthfeel.
Would WLP320-American Hefeweizen work for this?
From my records:
"This yeast is used to produce the Oregon style American Hefeweizen. Unlike WLP300, this yeast produces a very slight amount of the banana and clove notes. It produces some sulfur, but is otherwise a clean fermenting yeast, which does not flocculate well, producing a cloudy beer."
From my records:
"This yeast is used to produce the Oregon style American Hefeweizen. Unlike WLP300, this yeast produces a very slight amount of the banana and clove notes. It produces some sulfur, but is otherwise a clean fermenting yeast, which does not flocculate well, producing a cloudy beer."
Wayne1
Well-Known Member
I have never used that yeast so I do not know how it will taste.
From looking at some previous posts about it, it does seem to add a fair amount of banana/clove esters to a brew. More than you would get with S-05 or S-04.
Why don't you split a batch and give it a try and report back?
From looking at some previous posts about it, it does seem to add a fair amount of banana/clove esters to a brew. More than you would get with S-05 or S-04.
Why don't you split a batch and give it a try and report back?
Wayne1
Well-Known Member
After a quick look through the White Labs catalog, I think WLP-008 might be a better choice. It is a clean fermenter and is rated to be a medium to low flocculating strain. It seems to finish a bit higher than WLP-001.
I have usually used NCYC1187 in the pubs I worked at after SandLot. It is a very quick fermenter and drops bright quickly. I was not so concerned with how cloudy it looked. I was more concerned with the taste.
I have usually used NCYC1187 in the pubs I worked at after SandLot. It is a very quick fermenter and drops bright quickly. I was not so concerned with how cloudy it looked. I was more concerned with the taste.
This is incorrect. Even the spreadsheet someone posted with all these variants has the original recipe wrong. Wayne linked to the updated recipe again, a few posts above. I highly suggest you start with his updated recipe. It is SPOT ON BLUE MOON. He wasn't trying to waste breath by listing the brand of malt to use either, very important. My last batch came out light because I used some other malt I had on hand.
I think you are wrong. The "original" recipe shouldn't be called "updated recipe". Wayne has the link to the "original" in his signature which sends you to the first page of this thread and from there, one can assume post #6 and later #11 would provide most of the data. Not until page 73, the "updated" recipe shows up in his signature, unless I have misssed it through all the pages I have checked.
The "Someone" that posted the spread sheet with all recipes was me. I requested for anyone to flag any mistakes I may have made when "assuming" wayne's recipe, got no complains until now. I do think I need to correct the coriander and orange amounts, but the rest is what I could figure.
Now, has anyone brewed the "updated" recipe? If so, I can add to the spread sheet.
Also, the pool I have created that in my opinion would help a lot, has minimum feedback. Our personal opinion on whether or not we got a "SPOT ON" recipe, to me, has limited value. We all have different tastes and perceptions. Best way is to collect feedback from those who brewed and provide an easier summary, other than reading 727+ posts.
Boegman
Member
I'm from Canada and had a great pint of BM 5 years ago when visiting Lake Tahoe. Always try to get it when travelling through the US. I'm going to give Wayne's updated recipe a try, but don't have access to BM up here (not that it matters if I like what I make).
I read online that Rickards White (a wheat ale with clove and coriander) is actually BM brewed in Montreal by Molsons after they merged with Coors. Anyone tried the two and know if this is true?
I read online that Rickards White (a wheat ale with clove and coriander) is actually BM brewed in Montreal by Molsons after they merged with Coors. Anyone tried the two and know if this is true?
Interesting you said that because we were just discussing how a yeast with some clove/bannana profile would fit our clone.
I guess there is only one way to know, brewing it. I'll give it a try this weeked.
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
Not to nitpick, but Boegman asked for the "original" recipe and not the "updated" recipe so that's what I pointed him to. Apparently you think the German malts and English yeast listed in the "updated" recipe give you SPOT ON BLUE MOON. Cool. Me, I've brewed it with domestic 2-row, domestic white wheat malt and 1056. My impression is that that's spot on, at least as far as the malt and yeast are concerned (I'm still trying to get the spices right with my system). Regardless, I tried to answer the question Boegman asked, not the one he didn't ask.
The confusion with the first post is the coriander and orange which were corrected later at some point. The malts and yeast are correct. I hadn't even noticed he switched to us-04 in the "updated" recipe until now. I have always used 05. My point is the 50/40/10 ratio of grain/wheat/mashed oats will get you blue moon. No need for adding different grains. The wheyermann brand grains yielded the best results for me color wise. I think if Wayne could edit his first post it would help with all the confusion, but if you are serious about cloning blue moon reading the entire thread is recommended.
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
This has been my experience as well. On my system, the original 50/40/10 ratio gives me what I want.
How about taste wise? Does the pilsner stand out at all? I don't pick up a pilsner taste in Blue Moon, which makes me reluctant to try it. I use Great Western 2-row which is very similar to Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner Malt (1.8-2.2L vs. 1.7-2.1L) so I'm not sure that color would be a reason for me to change. And looking closer at my notes, I do use Weyermann pale wheat malt, not a domestic wheat malt, so nothing to consider changing there.
I'm going to brew it again in about a month using 0.5 oz. coriander and 0.75 oz. dried sweet orange peel. I'm hoping that will finally do it for me.
Honestly I can't taste a difference between the two. I did a side by side by side after the latest batch, because it looked noticeably lighter. They tasted the same to me. I should of snapped a pic. The previous batch with the wyermann looked exactly like the blue moon. The latest batch with a nameless brand of 2-row lacked the orange hue that blue moon has. I used the recommended wyermann on the first 3 batches I made, and this was the first time I got this color difference so for now I will blame that.
The main thing I'm still trying to perfect is the coriander. I'm finding that how much I crush it makes a difference. I will get a coffee grinder so that I can be more consistent with it.
The main thing I'm still trying to perfect is the coriander. I'm finding that how much I crush it makes a difference. I will get a coffee grinder so that I can be more consistent with it.
Sorry Nilo but I have not made your recipe yet. Ive been experimenting on my own using some of Wayne's ideas - I have a LHBS that has the Bohemian Pilsner and Wheat so it was easy to try. I also had some exposure to a test of base malts for HefeWeisses that resulted in Bohemian Wheat Malt being the favorite taste of 4 tried so I wanted to try this Bohemian Wheat Malt for two reasons.
Here is a photo of the three after a while. The pilsner is on the left, Pale and UK Med 55, the right side is real BLue Moon.
Surprising the color variance with the Pale and UK Med Crystal 55 vs the Bohemain Pilsner and Crystal 40.
Recipe 1 - Bohemian Moon 5.4 SRM
4# 9 oz Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner Malt
3# 11 oz Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Wheat
1# 6 oz Flaked Oats
10 oz Weyermann Carafoam
6 oz Briess Crystal 40
70% Efficiency for 5.25 gal batch
Recipe 2 - Pale Moon 6.3 SRM
4# 9 oz Rahr Pale
3# 11 oz Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Wheat
1# 6 oz Flaked Oats
10 oz Weyermann Carafoam
4 oz Medium Crystal 55
70% Efficiency for 5.25 gal batch
Mash at 154 for 60 Min, Both with 1oz Hallertau at 60 min, 90 Min Boil
0.75 oz Coriander 10 min, 1 oz Valencia Orange Peel 5 Min
American Ale 1056 Yeast
Recipe 1 the Bohemian Moon had a sweeter pilsner taste than the pale moon or real blue moon but the color was very close. The Pale Moon was my favorite out of all three but the color is obviously not the same. I thought my cutting back to 4 oz using UK Med 55 would create the same color but it was not even close.
The Pale Moon, Recipe 2 was pretty close on the clarity although Recipe 1 may have sat a little long in the primary. The lacing on the side of the glass was better in the two homebrews. Coriander seemed OK to me although this is hard for me to judge. Orange aromas are pretty subdued in all three but greater in the homebrews. If I want more I add an orange slice in the glass.
Next time I think I will try regular Rahr 2 Row (Not the Pale) with Rahr White Wheat Malt and Carapils with no Crystal 40.
KPSquared
Well-Known Member
Blue moon and Rickards White are the exact same product. . .Coors owns Molson. They are brewed in the same brewery. There is not even a hint of clove that I can tatse. . .that's the whole point of using an american ale yeast. . .
garethliam
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Hi, eulipion2 - was this BIAB a 5 gallon batch? I'd like to give this a go, but for a 1-2 gallon BIAB batch.
It was a 6-gallon batch. I brewed it for a friend's wedding, so I wanted to make sure I had a full two cases.
BTW, I usually consider it 6 gal in kettle, 5.5 gal in fermenter, 5-5.25 gal in bottle. That's just usually how it works out for me, especially if I add hops to my no-chill container.
garethliam
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nianticcardplayer
Homebrewing Since 2009
Reading through the entire thread and the different variations of this recipe here which post/recipe variant would be considered the closest currently? Sorry if it sounds stupid but I have seen so many variants from the original post trying to figure out which grains to use in the 50/40/10 and the weights as some of those also seem to be very different as well.
Thanks in advance for the help.
Thanks in advance for the help.
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure you'll get any sort of consensus as to which version would be considered the closest currently, in part due to differences in systems and taste perceptions.
For a first attempt, I can't think of a better place to start than Wayne1's posts since he actually was involved in the development of the original recipe and brewed it commercially. Focus on his posts #6, #11 and his updated version somewhere in the middle where he makes specific grain brand and spice amount recommendations. That gets some of us exactly what we want.
If your first attempt based on Wayne1's recipe falls short in some way, I would look to the work Nilo has done. He has brewed this many times, making systematic changes along the way to address issues of body, color and flavor. You can probably find good ideas for tweaks in Nilo's notes.
Good luck!
For a first attempt, I can't think of a better place to start than Wayne1's posts since he actually was involved in the development of the original recipe and brewed it commercially. Focus on his posts #6, #11 and his updated version somewhere in the middle where he makes specific grain brand and spice amount recommendations. That gets some of us exactly what we want.
If your first attempt based on Wayne1's recipe falls short in some way, I would look to the work Nilo has done. He has brewed this many times, making systematic changes along the way to address issues of body, color and flavor. You can probably find good ideas for tweaks in Nilo's notes.
Good luck!
sloanfamilydsm
Well-Known Member
I have always loved Blue Moon and was ecstatic about following Wayne1's recipe.
There has been some debate in this thread about the amount of spices used. I used 34 grams Ground Coriander 10 Min, 13 grams Orange Peel (Penzeys) 5 Min. for a 5 gal. batch and believe it is incredibly close to Blue Moon from a bottle.
Hope this helps anyone else when deciding what ratio of spices to use.
There has been some debate in this thread about the amount of spices used. I used 34 grams Ground Coriander 10 Min, 13 grams Orange Peel (Penzeys) 5 Min. for a 5 gal. batch and believe it is incredibly close to Blue Moon from a bottle.
Hope this helps anyone else when deciding what ratio of spices to use.
Going to get grain in an hour...still not 100% which I'll try after readying 75 pages!! Seems I should try the original as suggested but I can only get Briess 2-row and that's why I'm debating on another tweak.
*EDIT, anyone try flaked wheat in conjunction with malted wheat to help with the mouth feel?
*EDIT, anyone try flaked wheat in conjunction with malted wheat to help with the mouth feel?
Stick to the basics, briess 2row , wheat malt, flaked oats.
Update. I have corrected the recipe file to google drive to reflect Wayne's original amounts of coriander and orange peels seen on first page of this thread. I assume he meant table spoon by "tsp", so I used unit tbsp to avoid confusion.
Recipes
Update. I have corrected the recipe file to google drive to reflect Wayne's original amounts of coriander and orange peels seen on first page of this thread. I assume he meant table spoon by "tsp", so I used unit tbsp to avoid confusion.
Recipes
tsp is typically used to denote a teaspoon. Tablespoon is Tbsp. Not sure in the context of Wayne's recipe, but that's the standard cookbook abbreviation.
Yes, I know tsp means tea spoon, but the amounts seems to make sense if he meant table spoon instead. Anyway, feel free Wayne to chime in to correct us here.
By the way, will be brewing #9 this weekend with Wyeast 1010, American Wheat.
By the way, will be brewing #9 this weekend with Wyeast 1010, American Wheat.
Wayne1
Well-Known Member
Updated Recipe
If that link doesn't take you there it is post #429 on page 43 of this thread.
I originally had the first recipe spice additions in teaspoons. That was a direct scale down of the amounts used in the 15 bbl batches. I later stated that spices do not scale linearly.
The amounts I have listed in the updated recipe are closer to the amounts I found to taste correct for 5 gallon batches. You may find different. As I have always said in this thread, you will have to brew it yourself and adjust the amounts to fit your system and your perceptions.
Do not think that you can make a perfect Blue Moon clone by brewing any recipe one time. You will have to fine tune everything to fit your system.
If that link doesn't take you there it is post #429 on page 43 of this thread.
I originally had the first recipe spice additions in teaspoons. That was a direct scale down of the amounts used in the 15 bbl batches. I later stated that spices do not scale linearly.
The amounts I have listed in the updated recipe are closer to the amounts I found to taste correct for 5 gallon batches. You may find different. As I have always said in this thread, you will have to brew it yourself and adjust the amounts to fit your system and your perceptions.
Do not think that you can make a perfect Blue Moon clone by brewing any recipe one time. You will have to fine tune everything to fit your system.
Colorado68
Well-Known Member
Going to try brewing Nilos #8 tomorrow, picked up the grains tonight.
Will try the oats in the boil method rather than the starch.
What style would be best for this recipe? 16A?
Beersmith, at 75% efficiency shows this coming in at 6.6 abv which seems too high.
Was hoping for a ABV in the high 5's
Would I be better off just making this a 6 gal batch?
Will try the oats in the boil method rather than the starch.
What style would be best for this recipe? 16A?
Beersmith, at 75% efficiency shows this coming in at 6.6 abv which seems too high.
Was hoping for a ABV in the high 5's
Would I be better off just making this a 6 gal batch?
Thanks Wayne!
That link just took me back to the same spot for some reason. But i found the post number and printed it out. I will make it to the recipe that you had in post #429 and see how I like it. I'm sure it will be the closest i have come yet to Blue Moon as all the other "kits" i have tried are not even close.
Thanks again.
That link just took me back to the same spot for some reason. But i found the post number and printed it out. I will make it to the recipe that you had in post #429 and see how I like it. I'm sure it will be the closest i have come yet to Blue Moon as all the other "kits" i have tried are not even close.
Thanks again.
Catfish1320
Well-Known Member
Brewed the original Wayne1 recipe from page 1 tonight. Just a 3.25 gal AG batch. Hit the exact numbers Beersmith said I would with the recipe.Only change is I had a wlp001 here so I used it. .5 oz coriander, and 1oz of sweet orange peel. Tasted amazing going into the fermenter, hope it tastes good when it comes out.
I have updated the recipe file where I included both Wayne's original (#1) and updated (#2) recipes, below. OG/FG/ABV/Color and IBU may vary depending on each ones' system or brewing tool. I have also updated the poll.
Let me know if anyone see any discrepancies.
Thanks,
Let me know if anyone see any discrepancies.
Thanks,
I had 65% efficiency in my system, my OG was lower.
My tool shows OG=1.056 and FG=1.010 for 75% efficiency and 152F mash temp. ABV would be around 6%.
You could mash higher, say 157F and reduce your ABV to the mid 5%.
Colorado68
Well-Known Member
I ended up with 1.062 on 5 gallons so I added 3/4 gallon of water and got it down to 1.055. It's percolating away today.
Catfish1320
Well-Known Member
I needed the 5 gal carboy for a Blonde Ale Im going to brew tomorrow so I racked this into a 3 gal carboy after one week in the primary. I cant believe how close the original recipe (scaled to a 3 gal batch) is to the original. I think the only thing I might do next time is just add a small amt of cara pils for a bit more mouthfeel. My wife is a blue moon drinker, and thats who I made this for, and I let her sample it out of the primary and she could not believe how close it was. I brewed Wayne1s original page 1 recipe, but used Saf 05, .6 oz of crushed coriander, and 1 full oz of sweet orange peel. Very very happy with it. This is even after letting the fermentation temp get out of control to 76* I got lucky, it didnt not do no damage. Its good
Feel like an idiot.... I am trying to order some grains for this beer. I am ordering from Austin Homebrew and it appears they do not carry the Weyermann brand. So I have found the Bohemian Pilsner Malt to replace the Weyermann Bohemian Pils malt but can not find the Pale Wheat Malt. Does it have another name that i might not be aware of?
Thanks!
Thanks!
jwalker1140
Well-Known Member
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