Has anyone tried caramelizing lactose?

Awesome. Getting together enough of an order for free shipping will be no problem. Where did you find that promo code? I wonder how long it's good for..

bottlebomber said:

Awesome. Getting together enough of an order for free shipping will be no problem. Where did you find that promo code? I wonder how long it's good for..

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I edited that post... read the end of it

Great. I may as well go for the 12 pounds. I imagine it will keep for a couple years.

The best deal is actually for 15lbs, because the free shipping over $20 only works for 10lbs or less, but there's another method that becomes free at the $40 mark. So it's only $4 more for an extra 3lbs.

Even better deal than getting the 2lbs, actually, as 15lbs comes out to only $2.70/lb. An awesome deal, but that's a lot of lactose!

If only that free shipping applied to Canadian orders too, I'd buy 15lbs tonight

Might be a good idea for group buys, if people have a local homebrew club. People can buy smaller amounts at the same $2.70 rate, and then next time somebody else can place their "first order".

I did a Creme Brulee Java Stout a while back. It was a basic stout recipe to start out. I just carmalized a pound or so of table sugar and added it to the end of the boil, along with approx the same amount of of lactose at the same time. Sorry for being vague about the amounts, it's been a while. I then added about 4 cups of fairly strong coffee, and 1 vanilla bean that I split and soaked in a couple of Tbls of vodka for an hour or so to the secondary.
Turned out awsome. I was trying to make something similar to a beer I had at the Great Taste of the Midwest Beerfest from Kuhnhenn Brewing Co. They were serving it out of a Slushie Machine, calling it "Brain Freeze".
Cheers.

I love the idea of beer slurpees. Maybe that will be the next big thing, after the kegerator builds die down.

bottlebomber said:

So I got my stuff today, and I did it. I feel like it was a big success, and it basically accomplished just what I was after. I decided to sack up and use a dry caramel method. I don't know if that was the best idea, as this stuff behaves MUCH differently than table sugar when it is caramelizing. I had crystallization from hell because I was paranoid about burning it, and stirred about 10x more than I would have if I was making regular caramel. In the end I took it right to where I wanted it, just shy of burnt. One thing that I found very strange was that when sucrose is caramelized, it gets perceivably less sweet as it caramelizes. But with this lactose, it seemed the opposite. It tasted bland and chalky while dry, but rich and sweet when caramelized.
I am very happy with the experiment so far, now I just need to see if the flavor will hold up in the beer. When I was done I put about a pint of water back in, dissolved the caramel, chucked 3 Tahitian vanilla beans in and then put it into secondary and racked my brûlée stout onto it.

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Please let us know if there is any sweetness after this beer is finished. I'd like to consider back sweetening my hard apple cider this way!

emjay said:

1) Go to the following link: http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Healthy-Foods-Lactose-Milk-Sugar-1-lb-454-g/657

3) Use the coupon code BUY123 (gives $5 off your first order; $10 if you spend over $40)

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Just got 8 lbs of lactose for $2.82 a pound delivered, half the price of most places and with free shipping at that. Nice deal.

Hey I didn't read the entire thread so, sorry if I missed something, but when you said caramelizing lactose I thought of this:

[ame]http://youtu.be/aWKvV54azWw?t=4m15s[/ame]

Dulce de leche... basically you take milk and sugar and caramelize it. Sounds risky to do with the whole milk Alton uses here, in beer that is, so maybe skim milk would be superior? I wonder if the long cooking would un-ravel the proteins in the milk enough (and the baking soda) would help avoid curds in the beer. Thoughts?

The thing if it is that the caramel made with table sugar is still going to be 100% fermentable - and thats what I was trying to get away from. Also by introducing actually dairy you have all of the volatile fats and oil along with whatever other solids are in the milk. I'd love to get actual cream into this if I thought I could get away with it. I don't think I could though, after reading the cheese beer thread.

bottlebomber said:

The thing if it is that the caramel made with table sugar is still going to be 100% fermentable - and thats what I was trying to get away from. Also by introducing actually dairy you have all of the volatile fats and oil along with whatever other solids are in the milk. I'd love to get actual cream into this if I thought I could get away with it. I don't think I could though, after reading the cheese beer thread.

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Well it was worth a try. I thought choosing skim milk would avoid putting any fat into the beer.

hmm i'm thinking of trying this, a caramel mocha stout.... served on nitro

keesh said:

Well it was worth a try. I thought choosing skim milk would avoid putting any fat into the beer.

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I honestly would like to experiment with dairy in beer, as much as I know people will talk crap about it. I know that condensed milk is shelf stable, so there must be a way to stabilize milk products in beer. It may be a matter of bottle pasteurizing it after it carbed. It would be an extremely small batch. Perhaps when I bottle this stout I will add boiled cream to a couple of bottles and pasteurize them after 2 weeks, to see if it's even possible.

Did you brew it yet? I want to pop out a high abv sweet stout of some sort this weekend but I might follow your idea with the lactose because it sounds pretty interesting. Pics look good and your description of the lactose gaining sweetness post caramelization is getting me excited!

ColumbusAmongus said:

Did you brew it yet? I want to pop out a high abv sweet stout of some sort this weekend but I might follow your idea with the lactose because it sounds pretty interesting. Pics look good and your description of the lactose gaining sweetness post caramelization is getting me excited!

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The beer had been brewed when I started the thread, I added the lactose into a secondary with vanilla beans. Probably let it age another 2 weeks and bottle. So if I did this again I probably wouldn't try a dry caramel. I would probably just add about 12 ounces of water to the pound of lactose, and boil the water off and let it caramelize in a dissolved state. The dry caramel method is a little tricky as the lactose is kind of chalky and burns easily. Everything so far is telling me this is a good idea now. And thanks to emjays link have 8 lbs of cheap lactose to play with. I'm thinking a chocolate milk stout tomorrow night.

Bottlebomber, love this idea! What exactly was your process for caramelizing the lactose? Did you mix it with water and then heat? High heat, medium heat? etc... Thanks!

tedclev said:

Bottlebomber, love this idea! What exactly was your process for caramelizing the lactose? Did you mix it with water and then heat? High heat, medium heat? etc... Thanks!

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My process is being adjusted. I went balls out initially and did a dry caramel meaning sugar and nothing else. It's a breeze with table sugar if you have a little stovetop prowess but I found it to be a different world with lactose. I don't know if it has a higher melting point, but for whatever reason it was highly difficult to caramelize this way. I selected the most flattering pictures for the thread, but there were several that didn't make the cut, namely the ones where I stirred the partially caramelized sugar around like the dickens hoping it didn't burn. In the future, I will most definitely be using the easy caramelizing method of using water to dissolve the sugar, then heating until caramelized.

It is pretty simple really. Just use enough water to dissolve the lactose into a thick sludge. Then boil on a medium high heat. Once the water has boiled off it will go blonde and start hitting its caramelization points. Reduce the heat at this point. I have no idea what these are temperature wise for lactose in the way of soft ball, hard ball, etc. I just went by color for my application. If you wanted to do a caramelly flavor I would go light amber. I wanted a burnt sugar flavor so I went dark amber.

One thing for sure though - before you use this you will have to dissolve the caramel again in water to use it. There's no way hard caramel will dissolve in beer in any timely fashion. So just add a pint of water or so keeping in mind that the caramel is around 100 degrees above boiling and will spatter like crazy if you're not careful. The caramel will harden, and you'll have to simmer it until it dissolves. Then use it however you see fit.

I was going to brew tonight, but it will probably be Friday. I'm making a chocolate milk stout. I really don't think this technique is necessary for that, but I want to try it again using the above method. Instead of adding to secondary I will just make this while brewing and add it to the boil.

The jury is still out on this, but I think with a little adaption it can be used to impart some somewhat unique qualities to beer. I'll keep updating until I prove myself wrong

bottlebomber said:

The thing if it is that the caramel made with table sugar is still going to be 100% fermentable

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I'm still like 98% certain that this is actually untrue.

emjay said:

I'm still like 98% certain that this is actually untrue.

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I haven't tried that part of it yet! Tomorrow - making 100 ml of caramelized sugar syrup and adding a half packet of champ yeast. If it hits 1.00 I am right. What would it have to hit for you to be right? It must be at least mostly fermentable, right?

Also, I wonder if carbonized sugar would even contribute to brix?

bottlebomber said:

I haven't tried that part of it yet! Tomorrow - making 100 ml of caramelized sugar syrup and adding a half packet of champ yeast. If it hits 1.00 I am right. What would it have to hit for you to be right? It must be at least mostly fermentable, right?

Also, I wonder if carbonized sugar would even contribute to brix?

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No, it would need to go lower than 1.00, because alcohol is less dense than water. How much lower depends on the original concentration of sugars.

The proper way to do this would be with a control. Make a very well-caramelized solution, and a solution of normal table sugar, both with the same OG and pitch half the pack of yeast into each solution. It'll be like a forced fermentation test... if the caramelized solution finishes higher (and if properly conducted, I can all but guarantee it will), then it's not 100% fermentable.

How fermentable it ends up being would likely depend on how caramelized the sugars are. I bet if the sugar is very well-caramelized, it'd only be minimally fermentable, if at all.

Carmelization is a hydrolysis reaction. For Table sugar (surcrose) it breaksdown into glucose and fructose. For Lactose (another dissacharide) it breaksdown into glucose and galactose.

Yeast will not ferment galactose in the presence of glucose and I have seen some literature that suggests that with glucose present the yeasts gene for fermenting galactose never gets turned on so even once all the glucose is consumed, the galactose will not be fermented providing residual sweetness.

helibrewer said:

Carmelization is a hydrolysis reaction. For Table sugar (surcrose) it breaksdown into glucose and fructose. For Lactose (another dissacharide) it breaksdown into glucose and galactose.

Yeast will not ferment galactose in the presence of glucose and I have seen some literature that suggests that with glucose present the yeasts gene for fermenting galactose never gets turned on so even once all the glucose is consumed, the galactose will not be fermented providing residual sweetness.

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Ah...not even close. Hydrolysis is specifically the addition of water to cleave a bond. Polysaccharides do hydrolyze in presence of heat and water but much more happens after that in caramelization. You end up with all sorts of crazy high molecular weight species, not just a pot of monosaccharides.

helibrewer said:

Carmelization is a hydrolysis reaction. For Table sugar (surcrose) it breaksdown into glucose and fructose. For Lactose (another dissacharide) it breaksdown into glucose and galactose.

Yeast will not ferment galactose in the presence of glucose and I have seen some literature that suggests that with glucose present the yeasts gene for fermenting galactose never gets turned on so even once all the glucose is consumed, the galactose will not be fermented providing residual sweetness.

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Interesting. What is your source for this if you don't mind? It seems like your saying that caramelized lactose is at least partially fermentable, while lactose itself is not. Is that right?

Edit: Oh, and are you a member of the Beerocrats?

ColumbusAmongus said:

Ah...not even close. Hydrolysis is specifically the addition of water to cleave a bond. Polysaccharides do hydrolyze in presence of heat and water but much more happens after that in caramelization. You end up with all sorts of crazy high molecular weight species, not just a pot of monosaccharides.

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This. It should be rather obvious with even just a momentary glance that caramelized table sugar is more than simply glucose and fructose. It results in all kinds of different higher-order sugars, which should not be fermentable, especially since we actually know exactly which sugars these yeast species can ferment.

emjay said:

I'm still like 98% certain that this is actually untrue.

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It is not true. Like I said, caramelization results in high molecular weight species that aren't even classified as sugars at that point.

emjay said:

This. It should be rather obvious with even just a momentary glance that caramelized table sugar is more than simply glucose and fructose. It results in all kinds of different higher-order sugars, which should not be fermentable, especially since we actually know exactly which sugars these yeast species can ferment.

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Exactly. Monosaccharides aren't brown either.

Emjay, let me know if you can find any flaws in this - I'm going to weigh out around 50 grams of table sugar x2. One is going to be caramelized. The other is simply going to be dissolved. Both will be equal in volume (after redissolving in the case of the caramelized sugar). Now there's two things in curious about. If both are weighed accurately, and both have the same volume at 70 degrees, will the hydrometer read the same on both. And more importantly, how will they ferment comparatively. I will split a packet of yeast by volume between the two.

My theory is that they will be equally fermentable. However I have a funny thought that they may read differently on the SG. You suggested, if I'm not wrong, that the caramelized sugar would be highly unfermentable. I think you may be wrong, because a Bochet is probably similar in composition and it is fermentable.

bottlebomber said:

Emjay, let me know if you can find any flaws in this - I'm going to weigh out around 50 grams of table sugar x2. One is going to be caramelized. The other is simply going to be dissolved. Both will be equal in volume (after redissolving in the case of the caramelized sugar). Now there's two things in curious about. If both are weighed accurately, and both have the same volume at 70 degrees, will the hydrometer read the same on both. And more importantly, how will they ferment comparatively. I will split a packet of yeast by volume between the two.

My theory is that they will be equally fermentable. However I have a funny thought that they may read differently on the SG. You suggested, if I'm not wrong, that the caramelized sugar would be highly unfermentable. I think you may be wrong, because a Bochet is probably similar in composition and it is fermentable.

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No, he is right. Yeast will not ferment the polymeric hodge-podge of junk that is part of the caramel. Your test should result in a darker solution and a lighter solution. The darker solution will indicate the presence of unfermented caramelized junk.

I think you still have a lot of fermentable sugar left in a caramel so you might not see too huge of a difference.

ColumbusAmongus said:

I think you still have a lot of fermentable sugar left in a caramel so you might not see too huge of a difference.

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Thats kind of what I was thinking. There may be a difference, but not a large one. However, I was thinking that some of the caramelized solution may not even be fully soluble, and will not contribute to the reading. We shall see.

I've made dulce de leche with sweetened condensed milk...I wonder if it would be soluble without curdling. I suppose adding a bit to 1-2 oz of RIS would answer that.

ColumbusAmongus said:

Exactly. Monosaccharides aren't brown either.

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Monosacch will absolutely carmelize (brown) and at relatively low temps (160C for Glucose).

I wasn't trying to suggest that those were the only end product and there are 12 steps in carmelization each leaving a different set of end products. If you go all the way to Black Jack (step 12) you have nothing left that is fermentable and plenty of diacetyl, furones and furans.

Caramel malt has carmelized sugars and they do contribute to fermentability, just not to a great extent.

bottlebomber said:

Thats kind of what I was thinking. There may be a difference, but not a large one. However, I was thinking that some of the caramelized solution may not even be fully soluble, and will not contribute to the reading. We shall see.

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It probably is with a light caramelization but I am not so sure a hydrometer is the best "instrument" since it only measures density. The solubilized caramel component will prob contribute to the OG so I wouldn't expect a diff there and then the FG diff will prob be too small to measure on a hydrometer.

If he wants to be dorky, he could measure the volume of CO2 kicked off but even then...the difference is prob smaller than the error of a home experiment.

bottlebomber said:

If both are weighed accurately, and both have the same volume at 70 degrees, will the hydrometer read the same on both.

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Not necessarily, even if it remains all in solution, as the density of the molecules produced can differ. If they're different, you might even try having a third solution, using caramel to the same SG as the table sugar solution. I suspect the difference might be smaller than you're capable of reliably measuring, though.

bottlebomber said:

You suggested, if I'm not wrong, that the caramelized sugar would be highly unfermentable. I think you may be wrong, because a Bochet is probably similar in composition and it is fermentable.

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Here's the thing... even I will admit that caramel isn't necessarily "highly unfermentable", for two reasons. The first is that the term itself is subjective... at what point does it go from somewhat unfermentable to "highly" so?

But more importantly, and on a somewhat related note, caramelization is a process that can be done to different degrees, it's not like there's a sharp division between uncaramelized and caramelized sugar. So what I'm saying is that fermentability will be affected by the degree to which you caramelize the sugars. If you only lightly caramelize them, it will be more fermentable than a well-caramelized solution. And in practice, I'd say it's always going to be fermentable, if only partially so.

We know that all these higher order sugars and other crazy molecules are created during the caramelization process, and we know that the yeast we use only has the enzymes to ferment a handful of simpler sugars. I'm not sure where in the science you think there's room for the possibility that it will remain 100% fermentable, because it should be clear that there isn't.

That's not to say that caramelizing lactose is pointless, as it will certainly produce a different product, but the assumption that led you to think it necessary is indeed incorrect.

Feel free to do the experiment anyways, as there's little harm in doing it. Unless you conduct it poorly, that is, so just make sure the sugar is VERY well-caramelized so that it isn't merely slightly unfermentable with the difference in FG falling within the margin of error. Use a specialized FG hydrometer if you can to reduce this margin of error. But really, if the initially brown solution doesn't turn clear, there isn't even really any need to take the measurement, is there?

Anyways, I don't mean to sound like a pompous ******* or dismissive of your idea "just because", and I hope you understand that. But the science behind all this is well understood and there's really no scientific basis whatsoever for your hypothesis.

emjay said:

Not necessarily, even if it remains all in solution, as the density of the molecules produced can differ. If they're different, you might even try having a third solution, using caramel to the same SG as the table sugar solution. I suspect the difference might be smaller than you're capable of reliably measuring, though.

Here's the thing... even I will admit that caramel isn't necessarily "highly unfermentable", for two reasons. The first is that the term itself is subjective... at what point does it go from somewhat unfermentable to "highly" so?

But more importantly, and on a somewhat related note, caramelization is a process that can be done to different degrees, it's not like there's a sharp division between uncaramelized and caramelized sugar. So what I'm saying is that fermentability will be affected by the degree to which you caramelize the sugars. If you only lightly caramelize them, it will be more fermentable than a well-caramelized solution. And in practice, I'd say it's always going to be fermentable, if only partially so.

We know that all these higher order sugars and other crazy molecules are created during the caramelization process, and we know that the yeast we use only has the enzymes to ferment a handful of simpler sugars. I'm not sure where in the science you think there's room for the possibility that it will remain 100% fermentable, because it should be clear that there isn't.

That's not to say that caramelizing lactose is pointless, as it will certainly produce a different product, but the assumption that led you to think it necessary is indeed incorrect.

Feel free to do the experiment anyways, as there's little harm in doing it. Unless you conduct it poorly, that is, so just make sure the sugar is VERY well-caramelized so that it isn't merely slightly unfermentable with the difference in FG falling within the margin of error. Use a specialized FG hydrometer if you can to reduce this margin of error. But really, if the initially brown solution doesn't turn clear, there isn't even really any need to take the measurement, is there?

Anyways, I don't mean to sound like a pompous ******* or dismissive of your idea "just because", and I hope you understand that. But the science behind all this is well understood and there's really no scientific basis whatsoever for your hypothesis.

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I'm getting two messages here - one concerning what we are currently discussing (which I guess is technically OT), the matter of whether or not caramelized table sugar is significantly less fermentable than sugar which has not been caramelized. I think the difference will be negligible, and in fact the experiment is already underway, sans permission. My scale is only accurate to a gram, so I will take the advice and make the solutions uniform on my Brix refractometer. I'll also double check them on the hydro. I will retract my statement that the caramelized version is 100% fermentable, in lieu of this - it is not significantly less fermentable. I am confident of this to the extent that I feel comfortable monitoring the experiment with the equipment I have.

The second matter being your assertion that caramelized lactose may not be useful as a brewing practice. I don't know if it is, which is why, after being unable to locate any information on it, I started the process (and the thread). As far as I'm aware of you haven't tried it, and you don't know anyone else who has, so to denounce the practice would make you categorically a little pompous, yes. I am at least willing to give it a shot. Now, if I make one beer with it, one which I designed the recipe for and have never made, and my conclusion is "it's good!", that is hardly scientific. It is something I want to keep playing with. Just like everything else I do, I will decide for myself whether it is worthy, and share the results.

bottlebomber said:

The second matter being your assertion that caramelized lactose may not be useful as a brewing practice.

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Huh? I didn't say that. In fact, I said the opposite. :/

emjay said:

That's not to say that caramelizing lactose is pointless, as it will certainly produce a different product

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The thing I have been disagreeing with was your initial assertion (and then later reassertion) that caramelizing sucrose for beer was an exercise in futility as it would just be completely fermented anyways, which simply isn't true.

emjay said:

Huh? I didn't say that. In fact, I said the opposite. :/

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My apologies for the misunderstanding. See, I've been spending too much time with you in the debate forum. If I had been spending more time in the Tap Room, I could just call you a ***** and be done with it

The thing I have been disagreeing with was your initial assertion (and then later reassertion) that caramelizing sucrose for beer was an exercise in futility as it would just be completely fermented anyways, which simply isn't true.

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Aaah, gotcha. It's been a long week. Well, the good news is that said fermentation is underway. I deeply caramelized 50 grams of sugar until it was smoking. Even with my primitive equipment, both samples came out to exactly 1.028 on my refractometer, and 1.030 on the hydro. I wish I would have made it higher gravity to get a broader spectrum, and it might not be adequate. If no obvious difference is measurable, I may try it again with 150 grams.

The difference to me though, is that for my application I would not use simple sugar, because it is a stout. I wanted the caramel to be fully non-fermentable, not just partially.

You should do a third and fourth solution with caramelized and straight lactose, at the same gravity. The galactose could indeed make the former partially fermentable.

emjay said:

You should do a third and fourth solution with caramelized and straight lactose, at the same gravity. The galactose could indeed make the former partially fermentable.

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I think I will! That was definitely an interesting idea. Even though Heli never really followed up with any source material he seemed to know what he was talking about, and that's grounds for an experiment. I know from what I did that the flavor was very different. I've never heard of galactose.

bottlebomber said:

I think I will! That was definitely an interesting idea. Even though Heli never really followed up with any source material he seemed to know what he was talking about, and that's grounds for an experiment. I know from what I did that the flavor was very different. I've never heard of galactose.

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Just like the disaccharide sucrose is made up of the monosaccharides glucose and fructose, lactose is the same, except there is a galactose instead of a fructose. I know brewers yeast is capable of fermenting galactose, and I would expect lactose to "invert" like sucrose does when heated, so it would make sense.

However, he grossly oversimplified and even straight up mischaracterized the caramelization process. In fact, what he described pretty much IS the "inversion" process (ie hydrolysis).

Results are in.

Lol.

Both samples have dropped clear for a good day now. The gravity of the straight sugar went from 1.028 down to .998. The caramelized version started at 1.028, and when fermentation was complete it came down to... Wait for it...

1.020. Maybe 1.018.

So I can definitely conclude(read concede) that caramelized table sugar is SIGNIFICANTLY less fermentable. I am actually really glad I did this, because I had planned on priming the beer with caramelized sugar, and now I know to not do this. The degree of fermentability is far to unpredictable. Cool experiment.