use an Immersion Chiller as a HERMS coil?

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slakwhere

slakwhere

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so i lost a couple degrees on my mash the other day, and i started thinking about ways to get the mash temp to stay put. the idea of HERMS has always intrigued me, but i don't want to hard-plumb the equipment into the MLT because i think it'll be more of a pain to stir, clean, etc.

my thought was that if i had a decent Immersion Chiller (mine is short and small diameter) then i could hook my pump to it, and pump hotter water through my IC in the MLT as a removable HERMS. then when i'm done, pull the IC, rinse it off and set it aside until i use it in the boil kettle at the end of the boil.

does this idea make sense? any negative repercussions?
 
slakwhere said:
so i lost a couple degrees on my mash the other day, and i started thinking about ways to get the mash temp to stay put. the idea of HERMS has always intrigued me, but i don't want to hard-plumb the equipment into the MLT because i think it'll be more of a pain to stir, clean, etc.

my thought was that if i had a decent Immersion Chiller (mine is short and small diameter) then i could hook my pump to it, and pump hotter water through my IC in the MLT as a removable HERMS. then when i'm done, pull the IC, rinse it off and set it aside until i use it in the boil kettle at the end of the boil.

does this idea make sense? any negative repercussions?
Click to expand...

what would be your hot water source? I would look into building a RIMS

check this out https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/ No disrespect intended :mug:
 
I think you have it backwards. Most people (including myself) pump the wort through a stainless or copper coil resting or fixed in the HLT. Using a PID I can easily maintain to 1 degree difference. If you were using it manually, turing the pump on and off I bet you could easily stay within 2-3 degrees depending on how close you watch it.
 
Ranger9913 said:
I think you have it backwards. Most people (including myself) pump the wort through a stainless or copper coil resting or fixed in the HLT. Using a PID I can easily maintain to 1 degree difference. If you were using it manually, turing the pump on and off I bet you could easily stay within 2-3 degrees depending on how close you watch it.
Click to expand...

cleaning the inside of that tube seems more painful than cleaning the exterior of the coil... but i guess a flush with some PBW or something would solve the problem.

Is your pid temp sensor in your MLT or your HLT when you do this? and are you switching on and off the pump or the heat?
 
I continually pump the wort through the coil in my HLT and I tell my PID to maintain within +- 1 degree of 156 degrees. This keeps my mash at 154 for as long as I need it. I use an electric element in my HLT so this is very easy to do. If didn't want to automate and was using propane I would simply heat my HLT tank up to about 200 degrees and turn my pump on as needed to maintain my mash temp. You could under

I'm using a BCS-460 and I have temp probe in 4 locations MLT, HLT, BK and return manifold.
 
i am currently propane not electric, so i think i'd have to hook the PID to the pump and only have it circulate when the temp is below what i want. pump in a toolbox with a light switch would prolly make it pretty easy to manually control. :)
 
the fact that I already had a copper coil IC was what pushed me to build a HERMS system rather than a RIMS system.

Cleaning the inside of the coil isn't really that bad. I boil some water, add a bunch of oxiclean, and then pump through the coil for 10 minutes or so when I am done brewing and call it done.
 
slakwhere said:
i am currently propane not electric, so i think i'd have to hook the PID to the pump and only have it circulate when the temp is below what i want. pump in a toolbox with a light switch would prolly make it pretty easy to manually control. :)
Click to expand...

You can use a PID to control propane burners, too. You need solenoid valves and a pilot light, but it can be done.
 
Walker, so you took your IC and turned it into a HERMS coil? what do you use to cool your boiled wort now?

and yes, i could get a PID to control my propane, that's starting to get expensive, complex and potentially more dangerous... the trifecta of doom.
 
slakwhere said:
Walker, so you took your IC and turned it into a HERMS coil? what do you use to cool your boiled wort now?
Click to expand...

I still use that coil.

I actually stick the coil in ice water and pump the wort through it. But, I could also just stick the coil in the wort and pump water through it.

it's just a copper coil. you can stick it into anything and pump anything through it.

edit: my coil is not permanently affixed to anything. I can move it wherever I want.
 
the cold wort goes back into the kettle.

I have a temp probe mounted in my coil, and that probe is located where the hot wort enters the coil. This lets me monitor the temp of what's in the kettle on my PID display as I am chilling.

I just keep circulating until the temp is where I want it and then I pull the coil out of the ice water and direct the output into my fermenter.
 
that's awesome. i just had a vision of a temp probe in the input side of my pump with a pid, the pump and a switch in the toolbox. that would RULE!

are you changing out the water in your HLT at all? or just keep adding ice? does the ice go in first thing or do you start with just hose water and add ice as it heats?
 
You probably don't want a probe located at the pump for the HERMS part of the brew. That seems to lead to temp overshoots.

I put the probe on one end of my coil. During the mash, that end of the coil is the OUTPUT. During chilling, that end of the coil is the INPUT.

For chilling, I actually knock the first 50*F or so off the temp by putting the coil into my MLT which is full of tap water. That not only knocks the first chunk of temp off, but gives me a big bucket of hot water for cleaning later.

Then I move the coil into another vessel with the ice water and keep pumping.

I use 20lbs of ice and a couple gallons of water and I don't have to change the water out, but I do have to stir the water while pumping to get the best heat transfer.
 
I also keep this cold water for rinsing later.

The hot water gets oxiclean added to it and I pump that through the whole system at the end and spray everything down with it.

edit: after things are relatively clean, the remaining hot oxiclean water is pumped into the kettle, brought to a boil, and then pumped through the whole system for one last good cleaning.

Then when I am done with the hot oxiclean water, I pump the cold water through the system to rinse everything.
 
I am also using a three keggle single tier system. I already have a second 3/8" ID immersion chiller that I have been using as a water pre-chiller for my BK immersion chiller. I am going to start using the pre-chiller double duty as a mash HERMS coil steeped in my HLT. After the mash I can hook it up to the garden hose for use as a water chiller. As a bonus, it will get rinsed out pretty good while it is chilling all that hose water being passed through it.
 
Has anyone actually done a reverse HERMS and is there any problems with it? I ask based on the OPs question.

What is the effective difference between pumping wort through the coil in the HLT and pumping hot water through a coil in the MT? I can probably answer my own question, in the MT it would only get the insert point of the water to temperature and would have to be overtemp, in the HLT you just idle the wort through until it reaches temp on exit.

Any other reason?
 
So I would like to re-ask the original question, because I'm thinking the exact same thing.

You take one pot of boiling water. pump that boiling water through an immersion chiller. Put the immersion chiller in your mash tun. control the pump with a temperature controller, so when the temp goes down then the controller turns on the pump, which pumps 200 degree F. water through the coild which would heat the wort.

clean the outside of the coil when finished and don't worry about the inside because only boiling water has been through it.

Please tell me what is wrong with this idea?

1) Keeping boiling water going for the entire mashing time is a bit wasteful
2) not circulating the wort would could cause hot/cold spots? (same thing with infusion right?)

Slakwhere, have you tried this yet?
 
lemy, after some thought it occurred to me that circulating the mash into the HLT gave me a constant circulation of the mash so it was well filtered and moved around enough to transfer heat. pushing boiling water through the coil in the mash would just cause hot spots around the coil without the mash being constantly stirred.

i've been doing it the way that most do it now, and am loving the results. when i am done with first runnings, i run my sparge water through the coil to collect what's in there and clean the coil. then i use the coil in my bk as an immersion chiller. :ban:

lemy said:
So I would like to re-ask the original question, because I'm thinking the exact same thing.

You take one pot of boiling water. pump that boiling water through an immersion chiller. Put the immersion chiller in your mash tun. control the pump with a temperature controller, so when the temp goes down then the controller turns on the pump, which pumps 200 degree F. water through the coild which would heat the wort.

clean the outside of the coil when finished and don't worry about the inside because only boiling water has been through it.

Please tell me what is wrong with this idea?

1) Keeping boiling water going for the entire mashing time is a bit wasteful
2) not circulating the wort would could cause hot/cold spots? (same thing with infusion right?)

Slakwhere, have you tried this yet?
Click to expand...
 
slakwhere,

Thanks for the reply. I thought of the hotspots too, but since there would be a constant heat source then manually circulating (paddling the mash) the mash during the rest would be fine.

I do love the idea of a RIMS system, but I read about stuck mashes and draining the wort from the bottom and burning up the element because there is no liquid, or actually even scorching the wort.

Herms seems complicated...

Maybe I'll just stick with my rubbermaid cooler, and the guesswork involved with immersion. I'm only on my second all-grain right now and probably should just work on learing more about the world of brewing before delving into automation.

Thanks again for the reply
 
lemy said:
Herms seems complicated...
Click to expand...

What's complicated about it? It's basically the same thing you and slakwhere is describing from a high level. 4 parts involved:

You are proposing a [tank of hot water] that will be [pumped] through a [coil] that is sitting in your [MLT] contents.

HERMS is just [pumping] your [MLT] contents through a [coil] that is sitting in a [tank of hot water].

In fact, I'd argue that what you are proposing is more difficult, because you don't have to stir the mash to keep the temp even with a "real" HERMS system, but you will with your system.
 
Are we talking about circulating hot water through a coil that is setting in the mash tun? I can't see haow there is an advantage to it other than to be different. Plus cleaning all that mash goop and wort off my coil would be a giant PITA
 

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