Pilsner/Lager fermenting question

Working on a Pilsner Urquel clone. Recipe calls for pitching at 70-75 degrees, and fermenting at 42-52 degrees.

How long should I wait before I put my carboy in the fermenting fridge? I've just statred to see some activity.

Thanks.

Hoppy

HoppyHoppyJoyJoy said:

Working on a Pilsner Urquel clone. Recipe calls for pitching at 70-75 degrees, and fermenting at 42-52 degrees.

How long should I wait before I put my carboy in the fermenting fridge? I've just statred to see some activity.

Thanks.

Hoppy

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I am also doing an Urquell clone. Brewed it a couple weeks ago. I was told to get the temp down to the fermentation range as soon as possible, or the yeast will produce fruity esters and off-flavors from the high temps...

When you see activity you can lower the temp. Personally, I prefer the cold pitch method (pitching at fermentation temperatures or lower) because the beer usually will not require a D-rest. You might have to perform a D-rest once fermentation is almost done.

I actually pitch my yeast at fermentation temps because of the lager yeast. You have to be careful not to cool it too fast now, you don't want to halt the yeast, but bring it down ASAP.

My lagers have gotten much better since I've started pitching cold. If you're using liquid yeast, make a starter. If you're using dry yeast, rehydrate first.

Thanks everyone.

She's in the fridge now at 44. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Hoppy

When pitching cold, make sure you have a sufficient amount of yeast (about 3oz of thick slurry for 5 gal wort). Warm pitching has come about to be able to pitch less yeast and still get a complete fermentation. When you don't have enough yeast for cold pitching you should pitch warm and help the yeast to grow faster. This will give you less problems than pitching cold with to little yeast.

Kai

Kaiser said:

When you don't have enough yeast for cold pitching you should pitch warm and help the yeast to grow faster. This will give you less problems than pitching cold with to little yeast.

Kai

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Well to my mind he should wait until he has enough yeast to pitch cold,

boo boo said:

Well to my mind he should wait until he has enough yeast to pitch cold,

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Yes, but this is his first lager and his schedule may not allow him to grow more yeast until he brews.

Kai

Kaiser said:

Yes, but this is his first lager and his schedule may not allow him to grow more yeast until he brews.

Kai

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Yes, true.

But this is a mistake he should fix early. I always (now) let my yeast dictate when I brew. I have found that pitching a less than optimum amount of healthy yeast don't quite make the same quality of beer. Still drinkable, just
not great.

I have always pitched lager yeast cold simply because it made sense. Why start a 50 degree ferment at any other temp?

Later, I heard Jamil talk about this on the brewing network and he actually recommends pitching at 5 degrees BELOW ferment temp and then letting it rise.

I was talking about this topic to my LHBS guy (a 20 yr brewer/judge) and he said that yeast suppliers (and he mentioned WhiteLabs in particular) advise pitching warm for no other reason than to make sure brewers see their carboys happily bubbling after a few hours. He said he fields more calls about lag time than any other single brew issue.

How about Lager yeast starters? Should they be made at cooler or warmer temps? I'm planning to brew a "Ayinger Celebrator" clone next Sat.
I'm planning to start my starter tomorrow(X-mas) and step it up at least once.

Evets said:

How about Lager yeast starters? Should they be made at cooler or warmer temps? I'm planning to brew a "Ayinger Celebrator" clone next Sat.
I'm planning to start my starter tomorrow(X-mas) and step it up at least once.

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Well, I make my lager starters at room temp because the goal is to propagate yeast, not to make beer. So, room temperature (but to be honest, my house is cold, so room temperature is around 60ish) and I step it up. When I have a big starter that's fermented out, I put it in the fridge and then decent the spent wort off. So, then I have a big mass of just yeast. After my wort is chilled at around 50 degrees or so, I pitch that yeast (warmed up to say 45 degrees) into it.

I'm no expert here- this is just what I do. I would defer to Kaiser on this one!

Yeah, thanks Yooper. That's what I was thinking too. It's just nice to get a second opinion on stuff, sometimes. I haven't done a lager since about this time last year. I don't think I even used a starter, then.

YooperBrew said:

Well, I make my lager starters at room temp because the goal is to propagate yeast, not to make beer. So, room temperature (but to be honest, my house is cold, so room temperature is around 60ish) and I step it up. When I have a big starter that's fermented out, I put it in the fridge and then decent the spent wort off. So, then I have a big mass of just yeast. After my wort is chilled at around 50 degrees or so, I pitch that yeast (warmed up to say 45 degrees) into it.

!

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And as long as you decant the spent wort you'll be alright. Sometimes i'll do the same thing if I am in a hurry to use my starter. Other times, I'll ferment my starter in the fridge.

Thanks boo boo

Cold vs. warm propagation of lager yest is another topic that is commonly debated. I like to do the first stages, from slant or plate, at room temperature b/c I want fast yeast growth. After that, when I pitch the yeast into a 1-2 qt starter, I like the yeast to work cold. The idea is that I don't want the yeast to get used to working at warm temperatures.

When I have been in a hurry I have also propagated lager yeast warm (mid 60s to low 70s), since it goes much quicker this way, and not experienced any flavour differences that I would contribute to the yeast propagation temp. Because of that I cannot say that one way is definitely better than another.


I believe that commercial breweries do cold propagation. But I would have to check this.

Kai

For cold pitching how thick a slurry would you grow in a 1/2 gallon jug?

My basement is divided into three sections with different temps. 65+, 60 and 50 at present. I think I'll get my starter going in the 60* portion and move it to the 50* portion to finish. My 2qt.starter wort is cooling now. I'll step it up on Thurs. and brew on Sat.
Thanks guys.

budbo said:

For cold pitching how thick a slurry would you grow in a 1/2 gallon jug?

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The difficulty is, that w/o actually measuring the aount of yeast it becomes hard to judge how much you have. With a stirred starter in about 1.6L (~1.6 qts) and occasional injection of O2 I get about 60-80 ml yeast sediment. This is just enough to pitch a 10-11 *P lager cold. Recently I have been decanting the starter beer and added another ~1.6 L fresh wort. Once that is fermented out I get about 100ml yeast sediment, which I think is good for lagers up to 13*P (1.052 SG).

I currently have my Schwarzbier in the primary and after 36 hrs I'm still waiting for a nice Kraeusen to form. I pitched at 8 *C (46 *F) and the lag time must have been about 24 hrs.

Kai

I have two beautiful lagers in cold storage now, a Munich Dunkel and Helles. I used a yeast starter and pitched at 68 degrees. At the first sign of activity, within 6 hours, I lowered the temperature to 50 degrees. I did perform a DA rest after 14 days, cooled down to 40 degrees and racked to the secondary. I am now at 33 degrees for eight weeks.