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Keith66 said:
I'm going to shift gears away from water and talk temperature. I have a house with a temp around 65, a garage that is warming with the weather from the 40/50s into the 60s, and a second fridge (typical house fridge, but an old one) in the garage that seems to hang around 34 no matter what I set it for. Is there any hope for me making a lager (before next fall)?

Buy a temperature controller for your garage fridge. There are some that I've just recently heard of called STC 1000 I believe for around $22 on amazon. Or get a Johnson controller. Then you can set the fridge for whatever temp YOU want.

TD
 
I'm going to shift gears away from water and talk temperature. I have a house with a temp around 65, a garage that is warming with the weather from the 40/50s into the 60s, and a second fridge (typical house fridge, but an old one) in the garage that seems to hang around 34 no matter what I set it for. Is there any hope for me making a lager (before next fall)?

Do yourself a huge favor and purchase a temperature controller for that spare refridgerator. This is what I use and it's simple plug and play:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/johnson-controls-a419-digital-temp-controller.html

Best investment you can make in your brewery. Controlling your fermentation temps is critical for beer, but especially lagers.
 
Seriously. In my chest freezer, I think it was a good 2-3 days to go from 50-65. I don't think you're likely to surprise the yeast.

When you're chilling, you have to be more careful, both because the yeast are less fond of dropping in temperature, but also because you're using a freezer that chills the ambient to sub-zero (°F) temperatures to get the fermentor down to 30-something. That will go far, far faster than waiting for a fermentor to equilibrate with the ambient temperature. If you use an active heating element to get to D-rest temps, then you might consider how quickly you want to get there.

I do use an active heating element, so I will probably have to raise slowly over a two to three day period. My chamber is built to provide cooling and heating at any programmed set point that can be changed up to four times per day and can be monitored and changed remotely by smart phone via wifi thermostat control. Once my fermentation is complete and I want to go to D-Rest I just change the program to slowly raise the temperature over time then when I want to go to Lagering, I just flip a switch and the refrigeration control kicks in and takes the temperature to 38*F or wherever I have that control set. The temperature that is shown on the display and smart phone app is the actual temperature of the fermenting beer. I work in the HVAC field and had access to two Delfield stainless steel deli refrigerators that were taken out of a store. The first one is complete and I am currently restoring the second to operate in the same manner.
Thanks for you and Yooper's responses. I'm hoping that my first lager will be great.
 
mblanks2 said:
i do use an active heating element, so i will probably have to raise slowly over a two to three day period. My chamber is built to provide cooling and heating at any programmed set point that can be changed up to four times per day and can be monitored and changed remotely by smart phone via wifi thermostat control. Once my fermentation is complete and i want to go to d-rest i just change the program to slowly raise the temperature over time then when i want to go to lagering, i just flip a switch and the refrigeration control kicks in and takes the temperature to 38*f or wherever i have that control set. The temperature that is shown on the display and smart phone app is the actual temperature of the fermenting beer. I work in the hvac field and had access to two delfield stainless steel deli refrigerators that were taken out of a store. The first one is complete and i am currently restoring the second to operate in the same manner.
Thanks for you and yooper's responses. I'm hoping that my first lager will be great.

drool!!!
 
OK, so I pulled a sample this evening and it was at 1.010. Sample tasted good, no buttery taste but programmed the temperatures to raise slowly over the next three days to 65*F from the current 53*F and will let it sit at that temperature for 48 hours. Then my plan is to rack to secondary and lager at 33*F - 34*F for four weeks. That would be nearly one week per 10 points. Then my plan is to mix approx. 3 - 4 grams of Nottingham with my priming solution and bottle condition at 70* for three weeks.
Will the Nottingham cause any clarity issues?
Should I use gelatin in the secondary prior to lagering?
Do I really need to do the D-Rest or could I go ahead and rack to secondary and by-pass that. Will it cause problems if I do and don't necessarily need it?
It has been in primary for 12 days now.
Sorry for so many questions at once, but it's my first lager and I want it to be as good as it possibly can be.
 
Stage two starter going! Curious to see how it takes off when I get off work tonight. Stage one was gangbusters!


Someone asked about my recipe. I was wondering if there is any feedback?

TD

Yo Dick, If you're doing Kai's recipe. What's your hop schedule? I did this recipe a few months ago. Lagered it for 2 months. It's really good, but I think it needs a tiny bit more of a hop presence. I've been trying to make a true helles. I have to say I'm pretty damn close. I've only pulled a few pints off the tap, so I can't give an exact flavor profile, but my initial reaction would be a little more hops. I'm gonna buy some Augustiner and Weinstephaner tomorrow and do a taste test.
 
OK, so I pulled a sample this evening and it was at 1.010. Sample tasted good, no buttery taste but programmed the temperatures to raise slowly over the next three days to 65*F from the current 53*F and will let it sit at that temperature for 48 hours. Then my plan is to rack to secondary and lager at 33*F - 34*F for four weeks. That would be nearly one week per 10 points. Then my plan is to mix approx. 3 - 4 grams of Nottingham with my priming solution and bottle condition at 70* for three weeks.
Will the Nottingham cause any clarity issues?
Should I use gelatin in the secondary prior to lagering?
Do I really need to do the D-Rest or could I go ahead and rack to secondary and by-pass that. Will it cause problems if I do and don't necessarily need it?
It has been in primary for 12 days now.
Sorry for so many questions at once, but it's my first lager and I want it to be as good as it possibly can be.

The nottingham is a good choice.

You don't need to do a diacetyl rest, unless you need to. :D What I mean is that it won't hurt to do one as a matter of course, just in case there is some diacetyl that you're not picking up. Not only does diacetyl have a buttery taste in large amounts, in very small amounts it has a "slick" or oily feeling in the mouthfeel and on the teeth and tongue. You could try another small sample, to see if there is no diacetyl at all, or you could just do it anyway and no harm will come. This risk is that diacetyl will get worse, not better, once the yeast becomes inactive to clean it up.
 
The nottingham is a good choice.

You don't need to do a diacetyl rest, unless you need to. :D What I mean is that it won't hurt to do one as a matter of course, just in case there is some diacetyl that you're not picking up. Not only does diacetyl have a buttery taste in large amounts, in very small amounts it has a "slick" or oily feeling in the mouthfeel and on the teeth and tongue. You could try another small sample, to see if there is no diacetyl at all, or you could just do it anyway and no harm will come. This risk is that diacetyl will get worse, not better, once the yeast becomes inactive to clean it up.

Awesome, thank you very much for the response. I will complete the D-Rest just in case. Rather be safe than sorry. Will the Nottingham cause any clarity issues? and should I use gelatin in secondary? I used irish moss in the last ten minutes of the boil.
 
Bulls Beers said:
Yo Dick, If you're doing Kai's recipe. What's your hop schedule? I did this recipe a few months ago. Lagered it for 2 months. It's really good, but I think it needs a tiny bit more of a hop presence. I've been trying to make a true helles. I have to say I'm pretty damn close. I've only pulled a few pints off the tap, so I can't give an exact flavor profile, but my initial reaction would be a little more hops. I'm gonna buy some Augustiner and Weinstephaner tomorrow and do a taste test.

Not sure I replied to this already
Here is my hop schedule.

.5 magnum x60
.5 hallertau mittelfreuh(?sp?) 40 min
.5 hall. mitt. x15 min

Brewed today. Hydro sample tastes. Good. Missed cooling. Temp so it's chilling to pitch temps in conical. Huge fluffy protein flakes in boil! Ran off boil kettle through HopRocket filled with rice hulls to try and filter it a bit more. Don't know if it works.
Missed gravity by .002 points. I think cause I added 2qts top off with 20 min left in boil when I decided to use the hop rocket filter plus adding immersion coil at 15 min knocked the temp off boil a bit? Dunno. First time with new burners installed. Worked great aside from some soot. Maybe evap percent is a bit different. Maybe I have more in fermenter than I know. Can't really measure the volume in the conical that I know of. So OG is 1.048. Pre boil 13.1 gal best I could tell was 1.045. Boiled it for 90 min. And recipe I had at 70 min so I figured this another reason for adding the two quarts water to boil.
Will see how long it takes freezer to drop temp to 43 from 65. Using the thermowell for first time on this.
TD

image-462476291.jpg


image-967694848.jpg
 
Not sure I replied to this already
Here is my hop schedule.

.5 magnum x60
.5 hallertau mittelfreuh(?sp?) 40 min
.5 hall. mitt. x15 min

Brewed today. Hydro sample tastes. Good. Missed cooling. Temp so it's chilling to pitch temps in conical. Huge fluffy protein flakes in boil! Ran off boil kettle through HopRocket filled with rice hulls to try and filter it a bit more. Don't know if it works.
Missed gravity by .002 points. I think cause I added 2qts top off with 20 min left in boil when I decided to use the hop rocket filter plus adding immersion coil at 15 min knocked the temp off boil a bit? Dunno. First time with new burners installed. Worked great aside from some soot. Maybe evap percent is a bit different. Maybe I have more in fermenter than I know. Can't really measure the volume in the conical that I know of. So OG is 1.048. Pre boil 13.1 gal best I could tell was 1.045. Boiled it for 90 min. And recipe I had at 70 min so I figured this another reason for adding the two quarts water to boil.
Will see how long it takes freezer to drop temp to 43 from 65. Using the thermowell for first time on this.
TD

Looks good. I'm brewing this recipe again later this week. I'll get the starter going tomorrow. I think I'm going to add a little more hops. I'm drinking an Augustiner right now. It seems to have a bit more hop presence. I'm doing a taste test with the two beers. Color is exact, but Augustiner is a tad hoppier. The two beers are pretty close. I can't believe I'm saying this, because this is my favorite beer. I have a weinstephaner original that I haven't opened yet. My second favorite beer..
 
I was shocked at the amount of hot break, even early in the boil. Brewed with a non-brewing friend and he asked about skimming the scum off the top. I'd never done this before so we left it.

When you say hop presence, do you bitter, flavor or aroma? Just curious. Hop flavor and aroma always seems less in the glass than in the hydro flask. I think bitterness is correct.

We drank some hofbrau original while we brewed. Only helles at the local store I could get.
I'm no helles connoisseur but I'd bet the fresh factor beats out the imports.

TD
 
I was shocked at the amount of hot break, even early in the boil. Brewed with a non-brewing friend and he asked about skimming the scum off the top. I'd never done this before so we left it.

When you say hop presence, do you bitter, flavor or aroma? Just curious. Hop flavor and aroma always seems less in the glass than in the hydro flask. I think bitterness is correct.

We drank some hofbrau original while we brewed. Only helles at the local store I could get.
I'm no helles connoisseur but I'd bet the fresh factor beats out the imports.

TD

I brew German Pils pretty often and I go with a 60m, 30m, 20m, and 10m additions. The 60m Magnum, the rest Saaz. I've got a lot of this lagering right now.
 
passedpawn said:
I brew German Pils pretty often and I go with a 60m, 30m, 20m, and 10m additions. The 60m Magnum, the rest Saaz. I've got a lot of this lagering right now.

How many ounces for the later additions?
I thought my hydrometer sample was good for hop flavor and bitterness. Aroma was OK but I think the style isn't about huge aroma. Plus with FL and sinus problems my sense of aroma isn't so keen.

What's the difference between a Munich helles and a German Pilsner? My friend was asking and I didn't have an answer. Also on the label of the hofbrau original we were drinking it said ALE

it clearly seems to be a lager to me.

TD

image-2521956785.jpg
 
How many ounces for the later additions?
I thought my hydrometer sample was good for hop flavor and bitterness. Aroma was OK but I think the style isn't about huge aroma. Plus with FL and sinus problems my sense of aroma isn't so keen.

What's the difference between a Munich helles and a German Pilsner? My friend was asking and I didn't have an answer. Also on the label of the hofbrau original we were drinking it said ALE

it clearly seems to be a lager to me.

TD

Ha, that's funny, it's most certainly not an ale. That might be an error on the part of the bottler who labeled it.

Helles is maltier and sweeter. I don't really care for helles. It is definately no replacement for a crisp German Pilsner, which is what I really like in the summer.

Compare 1D and 2A here: http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/catdex.php
 
Ha, that's funny, it's most certainly not an ale. That might be an error on the part of the bottler who labeled it.

The ALE labeling is likely due to arcane local state ABC laws, and has nothing to due with the style of beer. As noted above, Hofbrau Original is certainly not an ale.
 
Oxygenated for 90 sec this AM and pitched the decanted yeast, re suspended in the wort (got to love the racking arm). That 838 flocs hard, and took some agitation to get it resuspended.
I can't wait!!
I looked briefly at the 2a and 1d. Got to look again, but seem to very very similar at first glance.

TD

Took a much closer look at the styles, and seems the major difference is the hops and bitterness which are very subdued in the Munich Helles style, while in the German Pils hops and malt take a more equal role. My software calculate around 18 IBUs I think. The flavor and aroma and bitterness from my hydrometer flask were more pronounced than I expected, but hop contributions seem on par with the Hofbrau beer we were drinking.
 
Took a much closer look at the styles, and seems the major difference is the hops and bitterness which are very subdued in the Munich Helles style, while in the German Pils hops and malt take a more equal role.

A Helles is more balanced leaning slightly towards malt. A German Pils is considerably more dry and definitely hop-foward.

As an example, for two 1.050 worts of mostly Pilsner malt, you could make each style...the main differences would be the FG and total IBU's:

Helles: 1.012-1.014, ~ 20 IBU's
German Pils: 1.008 - 1.010, 35+ IBU's
 
Thanks.


I sure do hope my brew finishes below 1.010. Fermentation has started with some activity in the airlock. I cold pitched at 43 and set the temp to 46. It's up to about 45 this morning, so it's chugging along. I'll take a sample probably in 10 days. Started at 1.048.

TD
 
By the way,

I was looking at the white labs website. They have a "Munich Helles" lager strain which might be part of their seasonal yeast, and seems to be available now. I think one of us here was looking for the missing element in their MH brew, maybe this is the ticket,

First gravity check on mine planned for next week may 1st. I suppose I should try to see if I can detect DMS and Diacetyl. DMS is corn smell and Diacetyl is green apple or butterscotch? Dunno. Should I warm sample or something to try and smell or taste? Not sure I know what I'm looking for...

TD
 
I'm doing this recipe again tomorrow, but I will tweak it a little. My next Helles batch will be with that WL strain. I've only used the WL830 strain. I wonder how much different it is?
 
TrickyDick said:
By the way,

I was looking at the white labs website. They have a "Munich Helles" lager strain which might be part of their seasonal yeast, and seems to be available now. I think one of us here was looking for the missing element in their MH brew, maybe this is the ticket,

First gravity check on mine planned for next week may 1st. I suppose I should try to see if I can detect DMS and Diacetyl. DMS is corn smell and Diacetyl is green apple or butterscotch? Dunno. Should I warm sample or something to try and smell or taste? Not sure I know what I'm looking for...

TD

Diacetyl is butterscotch in small amounts and sometimes moderate amounts in darker colored beers. It is more like movie popcorn butter in larger amounts. It usually has an oily or slick mouthfeel even if you can't taste it.

Even if you're unsure, a diacetyl rest cannot hurt after the bulk of fermentation is done.
 
Thanks for the input. Diacetyl is like the NFL draft in some ways, might slip past you and ruin what could be a great thing. Ugh.. Having a friend help on the tastings when I check gravity next wednesday. I must say, the temp probe/thermowell in the center of the conical doesn't move much. I cold pitched at 43 degrees, and then bumped the thermostat control to 46. Pitched it Monday morning before heading to work when I bumped it to 46. So far temp has only risen up to 44!!! That seems a bit crazy. I started at 1.048 will report back next Wednesday (or thursday if things get out of hand on the tasting night)

TD
 
Checked the gravity today. Low 30s (OG 1.048). wort is cloudy kinda Cornish flavored. Temp had been 44-46. Never above. I bumped the temp up to 48. I think the temp controller is overshooting the temp stalling the lager yeast with lower temps

Not what I was expecting. Next update in a week.

What's up with the corn-like flavor and aroma? It was absent in the pre-pitch/post-boil chilled hydrometer sample. I did a full 90 minute boil and maybe an extra couple of minutes. DMS or yeast/fermentation by-products? It had been ten days since I pitched the yeast.

TD
 
What yeast did you use again? I think most are pretty happy around 50 degrees. I did a helles again a week and a half ago, and mine's done. Usually 5-7 days mine are complete at 50 degrees. After 10 days, you should be done I think. I guess what I'm saying is that I think you did good to warm it a bit.

I get a definitely graininess with pils wort, when I boil I get whiffs of what I get when I shuck corn. It's still a bit grainy at the end of the boil (even 90 minute boils), but its gone at the end of ferment and I'm left with the familiar pils graininess. I think the corniness and graininess are similar IMO (maybe just to me).

Warm it up a bit and let it ride.
 
StoneHands said:
What yeast did you use again? I think most are pretty happy around 50 degrees. I did a helles again a week and a half ago, and mine's done. Usually 5-7 days mine are complete at 50 degrees. After 10 days, you should be done I think. I guess what I'm saying is that I think you did good to warm it a bit.

I get a definitely graininess with pils wort, when I boil I get whiffs of what I get when I shuck corn. It's still a bit grainy at the end of the boil (even 90 minute boils), but its gone at the end of ferment and I'm left with the familiar pils graininess. I think the corniness and graininess are similar IMO (maybe just to me).

Warm it up a bit and let it ride.

OK. I was trying to follow the cold pitch method. I did have fermentation start within 24 hours with a huge starter.
I am using a thermo-well for the temp probe, it's in a SS tube, pinched off at the end, with the digital temp probe on my johnson temp controller, the digital one, pushed all the way to the end on the inside of the tube. Supposed to mo accurately reflect the wort temp as compared to ambient. Anyway, after I pitched the yeast at 42 or 43, I reset the temp to 46, but whenever I've checked, I've never seen the temp rise above 45. I suppose that it is making progress, likely as expected from what may be a colr than normal ferment temp. Also I don't know what the fluctuations in temp, especially at the side walls are when the freezer compressor is running.

Going to sit it out for another week and take another sample then.

Thanks

TD
 
Hey TD, I think your making Kai's recipe. If you are, you will be pleasantly surprised. I've been trying to make an Augustiner/Weinstepahner clone for a long time. This last batch is as close as I can get it. I did a taste test and I almost couldn't tell the difference..Thank god too, these Germany trips are getting expensive and my wife is starting to complain.

But I'm still going again next year.....:mug:
 
Bulls Beers said:
Hey TD, I think your making Kai's recipe. If you are, you will be pleasantly surprised. I've been trying to make an Augustiner/Weinstepahner clone for a long time. This last batch is as close as I can get it. I did a taste test and I almost couldn't tell the difference..Thank god too, these Germany trips are getting expensive and my wife is starting to complain.

But I'm still going again next year.....:mug:

If that's her in your avatar, then you better keep her happy!!

Tasted a small sample today, the two week mark. Better than last test. Temp up to 48 F now. Nearly fermented out I would guess 1.015-1.018 based on sweetness as compared to previous tastings but just a guess. Will test the gravity on Wednesday, day 16. Still some corn flavor.

Yeh it's Kai's recipe, though I forgot to add CaCl to the boil.

Ferm is going strong based on airlock activity. Might be a three week fermentation. Will see. These always seem to go longer than expected for me. .

TD
 
Hey TD, I think your making Kai's recipe. If you are, you will be pleasantly surprised. I've been trying to make an Augustiner/Weinstepahner clone for a long time. This last batch is as close as I can get it. I did a taste test and I almost couldn't tell the difference..Thank god too, these Germany trips are getting expensive and my wife is starting to complain.

But I'm still going again next year.....:mug:

Silly question BB but do you have a link to Kai's recipe?
 
Tasted a sample of mine last night, which would be day #16 after pitching yeast. The sweetness noted on day 10 has largely faded but a hint remains. Still cloudy. Some hop presence coming though but very subtle and subdued from pre pitch hydrometer sample. The corn aroma has gone, but still some corny flavor coming through.

What next? I think maybe ill pull a hydrometer sample this weekend and see where she sits. Could be time to dump the yeast from below and ramp down to 32 degrees for lagering. My OG was 1.048. When should i proceed with the lagering phase? i was thinking about a Diacetyl rest but i cannot detect any butterscotch right now, so I might skip this step. Is the a particular gravity or percent attenuation at which I should start to "lager" the beer at?

Once I've done the first yeast dump I'll probably need another yeast dump once she gets to 32 and sits for a few days. I think this yeast gets really chunky so might be tough to get out of the dump hole, and I had planned to just lager it in the conical.

TD
 
Tasted a sample of mine last night, which would be day #16 after pitching yeast. The sweetness noted on day 10 has largely faded but a hint remains. Still cloudy. Some hop presence coming though but very subtle and subdued from pre pitch hydrometer sample. The corn aroma has gone, but still some corny flavor coming through.

What next? I think maybe ill pull a hydrometer sample this weekend and see where she sits. Could be time to dump the yeast from below and ramp down to 32 degrees for lagering. My OG was 1.048. When should i proceed with the lagering phase? i was thinking about a Diacetyl rest but i cannot detect any butterscotch right now, so I might skip this step. Is the a particular gravity or percent attenuation at which I should start to "lager" the beer at?

Once I've done the first yeast dump I'll probably need another yeast dump once she gets to 32 and sits for a few days. I think this yeast gets really chunky so might be tough to get out of the dump hole, and I had planned to just lager it in the conical.

TD

I'd check again for diacetyl. In HUGE amounts, it is distinctly buttery, but in smaller amounts it's more of an oiliness. If you sample the beer, check for a slick or oily feeling on the tongue or teeth. If there is ANY hint of that at all, do a diacetyl rest. It gets worse with lagering, and then will turn into a butterbomb.

I would proceed with lagering when the beer as been at FG for at least couple of days, whether doing a diacetyl rest or not.
 
I read an article about warming up a sample in a warm water bath to promote the diacetyl precursors converting into diacetyl then chilling and compare to a control, unwarmed sample to test for diacetyl. I also read that to detect it, add drops of artificial butter flavoring to canned BMC type beer to learn what it's supposed to taste like and how to detect it in beer. (By the way head over to snopes and look for artificial raspberry flavoring and see what it's made of..)
I think I'll just do the diacetyl rest and be done with it.
TD

EDIT-

Check the gravity today. Freezer set at 49, but thermowell still reading 47. This thing doesn't want to warm up! Air lock still gurgling plenty, so I'm thinking its NOT going to be finished.
Sample still plenty cloudy. Smells and tastes of corn still - smaller pulls was less noticeable since the last full hydrometer sample.
Adjusted gravity is 1.023 (OG 1.048) so still has a ways to go. Brewed it on a Sunday 3/21, pitched Monday 3/22 before I left for work. So really today its at day #20 post-pitch.
Yeast is rated 68-76% attenuation, with optimal fermentation range 50-55. DOH!
Well, I think I am going to ramp the temp up to 50, and leave the freezer door open for a few hours to help the temp rise a touch.
Right now it sitting at 50% attenuation, so about 2/3rd of the way there. I am really hoping it makes it to 1.010 or even 1.009 for a really easy quaffer.
TD
 
Update-
had dates wrong in last post - April, not March! DOH!

Pitched yeast 4/22 - today is 5/18
last check, last weekend 1.023. I adjusted the temp to 50, and it is at 50, had seen up to 51 F.
Gravity today is 1.020.
Still tastes of creamed corn.
getting worried. Had thought it'd have been done by now. Gonna sit tight, and check it again in a week.

TD
 
TrickyDick said:
Update-
had dates wrong in last post - April, not March! DOH!

Pitched yeast 4/22 - today is 5/18
last check, last weekend 1.023. I adjusted the temp to 50, and it is at 50, had seen up to 51 F.
Gravity today is 1.020.
Still tastes of creamed corn.
getting worried. Had thought it'd have been done by now. Gonna sit tight, and check it again in a week.

TD

You should be worried. This beer should have been done in 7-10 days, not a month. This suggests a problematic fermentation. The creamed corn notes indicate a problem with your hot side process (weak, short, or covered boil).
 
g-star said:
You should be worried. This beer should have been done in 7-10 days, not a month. This suggests a problematic fermentation. The creamed corn notes indicate a problem with your hot side process (weak, short, or covered boil).

I did a 90 minute boil. No cover. Good boil rate. No corny flavors at the outset, only after fermentation began.
I am wondering if the temp controller thermometer is off calibration and I'm fermenting too low, stalling the yeast. It was a healthy and vigorous starter I pitched from a two,stage, 2 vial into 2L then up to 5 L. 90 sec o2 injection.

I agree something is wrong but trying to figure out where I went wrong so it won't happen again.

TD
 
What yeast did you use? I had a 3l start from 2 vials of WLP 800 take 5 weeks to get a wort from 1.054 to 1.012. It stalled on me a number of times if I got it much below 52.

I fermented it side by side with the other half of the same wort using saflager 34/70. The saflager finished faster and 2 points lower than the 800.

The 800 was stalled at about 1018 until I warmed it to 62f and roused it once a day for about 4-5 days. It tasted sweet right up until about 1018. And my fear was DMS, until I dissolved a little pilsner DME in some water and tasted them side by side. I realized what I was tasting was residual sweetness and not DMS.

The light sweetness went away when I finally got it to go those final 6 points. Is it possible you're just stalled and still have some malt sweetness behind?
 
And FWIW, I would get one of those stick on thermometers. They seem to be a pretty accurate indicator of beer temp. For both ales and lagers, I have learned that my differential between my controller's set point and the temp on my stick on thermometer is about 4 degrees. Over time, I've just learned to account for that when setting my controller.
 
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