General Wiring Questions On A 240v 50amp Line

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

jdlev

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2010
Messages
667
Reaction score
15
Location
Charlotte
I have a 50amp 240v old spa breaker that's no longer in use in my panel. The line runs right next to my brewstand...so it is perfectly ideal, and I hope I don't need to make any changes to it. I'm going to order 2 of those 5500w elements Kal recommended, along with most of the complete setup recommended in the element section of his website (thelectricbrewery.com). I plan on simply plugging the elements in when I need to use one of the two, though maybe later on I may try to develop the control box.

I don't understand a lot about electricity yet, so bare with me. If I use the 50amp line, do I need to keep everything rated at 50amps ie the GFCI/outlet, the wiring (I assume at least 10 gauge)? What would happen if you plugged the element into the 50amp line? Would it overload, or just heat the water uber fast? Also, I assume I couldn't order the 30amp outlet listed on Kal's site because the energy flowing to it would be way too high?

Lastly, everyone on here has told me I must have a GFCI...which I completely agree with. Problem is, I haven't found any 50amp outlets that come with a GFCI, other than looking at using a spa sub panel with a built in GFCI (which I prefer not to buy because they're ~$150). Have any of you come across any outlets with GFCI in them that are rated at 50amps? If not, do you think I should just pull the 50amp breaker, and put a 30amp GFCI breaker directly into the panel, and then just wire an outlet?

Thanks for all the help everyone! I really, really appreciate it!:fro:
 
I plan on simply plugging the elements in when I need to use one of the two, though maybe later on I may try to develop the control box.
You need some way to switch them on/off. Unplugging/plugging is not a safe way to turn something on/off.

What would happen if you plugged the element into the 50amp line? Would it overload, or just heat the water uber fast?
If you plug a 5500W element into a 50A line it'll draw 5500W which is about 23A.

Also, I assume I couldn't order the 30amp outlet listed on Kal's site because the energy flowing to it would be way too high?
The component at the end pulls current. It dictates how much current flows. A circuit with a 50A breaker has a 'potential' of delivering up to 50A to whatever requests it without popping the 50A breaker.

Spa GFI breakers are about the cheapest way to get a 50A GFI. I'm confused however, you say you have a 50A spa breaker. If it's a spa breaker it's going to have a GFI built in (that's why it's a spa breaker).

Kal
 
What switch would you recommend Kal? Would simply wiring in a light switch be an option, or would I need something more heavy duty. As for the spa breaker...here's a picture of the box & breaker.

251165_916138808878_55710621_42948526_3333856_n.jpg


247557_916138704088_55710621_42948524_4025619_n.jpg


Thanks!
 
I'll suggest reading the above sticky as well as consulting with an electrician in your area.
 
What switch would you recommend Kal? Would simply wiring in a light switch be an option, or would I need something more heavy duty. As for the spa breaker...here's a picture of the box & breaker.

That's not a GFCI Breaker, it's just the breaker that was used to power the spa, presumably it was protected with another GFCI downstream somewhere. So, putting a Spa Panel downstream or using an inline GFCI Cord would be the way to go. As for a switch you'll need something like this rated for 30A or a contactor and switch.

Another thing to note is that unless you are willing to stand over that switch and cycle it a lot over a 60min boil, I'd plan on biting the bullet and building in some sort of power control like a PID or PWM. 5500W is going to give you a crazy boil on 5 or even 10 gallons.
 
wyz...that's the plan later on...right now, since the wife is in college, I can only afford so much. The heating aspect of the brewery is the last piece of the puzzle before it becomes fully functional. Later on I plan to add some temperature controls and sensors for the element, but that will come with baby steps (and more moola once the wife get's out of school at year's end!)
 
I would recommend waiting until you can do it right. It'll cost less in the long run to do it once and do it right. End of the year's not far way. We're more than half way there.

Kal
 
My only other alternative is a weak propane burner from my smoker, which probably wouldn't be much faster than a few hot plates (BTW...I measured how long the 2 hotplates took to get 6g up to 155 degrees...2 hours...lord knows how long a boil would take.) I don't want to wait until the end of the year to brew on the system. So either I can buy a huge burner, and blow through some gas, or I can go with the elements...even if it means pluging them in and unpluggin them to keep the temps stable (which I could easily do via the breaker come to think of it since it's right there in the garage). The elements (at least IMHO), is definitely the way to go...
 
My only other alternative is a weak propane burner from my smoker, which probably wouldn't be much faster than a few hot plates (BTW...I measured how long the 2 hotplates took to get 6g up to 155 degrees...2 hours...lord knows how long a boil would take.) I don't want to wait until the end of the year to brew on the system.

But it's not like you'd be brewing tomorrow anyway if you went the 'simple route' that you want to do first..

If you decide to go with a 'simplified' electric setup now, you mentioned that you still have a lot to learn and haven't bought anything yet. That itself will likely take weeks if not months. Which puts you that much closer to the end of the year. What's an extra few months? It takes most electric guys many months to get set up anyway. It took me well over a year from ordering the first part to my first brew.

So why not do it right like you say you want to in 5-6 months anyway and start now? The end difference is that you've saved a bunch of money since you're not going to replace everything.

If you wanted to go simple from the start and stay that way then by all means go for it now. I only say this since you say you want to change it all up at end of year anyway. If it was 2-3 years down the road that you were planning on replacing most of it that's a different story. But the end of the year is only 6 months away.

Some of the stuf you're going to need regardless: A (possibly) 30A outlet with GFI and other things. You can get started on that since it's not something you end up throwing away in 5-6 months.

If you're not brewing at all now then you're likely buying craft beers or the like. I'd keep doing that while I slowly read/learn and put something together.

So either I can buy a huge burner, and blow through some gas, or I can go with the elements...even if it means pluging them in and unpluggin them to keep the temps stable (which I could easily do via the breaker come to think of it since it's right there in the garage).
You can't sit there and cycle the breaker on/off every second. That just isn't going to work. Nor should you do the same with a 30A switch like the one from home depot listed above. They're not meant for that sort of cycling.

The elements (at least IMHO), is definitely the way to go...
Agreed! :)

Kal
 
I think I'm going to look into the PID's, relays, thermocouplers, and the like. Of all the things with electronics, I find the PID's and temperature controlling the most interesting...I figure over the next month, I could spend $1k. You think that's enough to get me to where I need to be?

I've seen some PID kits that come with what looks like most of what you need to get you started (like this one. Plus the wiring diagram on the Auberin doesn't look toooooo complicated.

The biggest question is do I have all the tools I need to get the job done. Stuff like those punches, drill press, etc, are eating the budget alive...
 
I figure over the next month, I could spend $1k. You think that's enough to get me to where I need to be?
That depends on where you want to be. ;) Only you know exactly how far you want to take this, what you want to accomplish, and what setup/equipment you have to work with now, and how much you are willing to do yourself, and how much work (if any) you want an electrician to do for you.

Talk to different electric brewers and you'll find some will say "I spent 1/4 that amount" (they had most of the parts/tools already and did the install 100% themselves). Some others will say "I spent more than that just on having the electrician install a <fill in the blank> for me".

It sounds like you've got a lot of figuring out to do which is normal. Start reading, start deciding what you want, decide what your budget is, and then continually re-assess until it all meshes/fits.

Kal
 
I'd steer away from that particular PID if you want it to control the boil as it doesn't have a manual mode, this allows you to adjust the percentage of time that the element is "on" so you can dial your boil up or down. You can't just set the PID to 213F and let it run because that will essentially make the element "always on" and running at full power.

One thing you could do in the interim if you'd like is to use a lower powered element or combination of elements sized properly for the amount of wort you are going to boil. I've found for 5-6gal batches in my uninsulated keggle that 3000w gives me a nice strong boil that is almost perfect IMHO. Now for a 10-12gal batch it's not quite sufficient.
 
wyz...can you show me an example (like maybe from ebay) that you would recommend as a PID controller. I love all this stuff, and find it highly fascinating. I actually have to reign in my imagination most of the time. I was watching videos on PIDs on youtube, and came across some PC based PID controllers through a usb data acquisition device. They looked UBER cool (but hard as hell to program no doubt)!
 
I'm going to show my ignorance here...but what's an RTD? Is that the thermocoupler that measures the temperature at the site?
 
It does the same thing as a thermocouple but is generally more accurate and doesn't require a special type of wire. It stands for Resistive Thermal Device.
 
RTD = resistive thermal device

They're in the temperature probes in my brewery.

Thermocouple (TC) based temperature probes are also readily available and are often used in brewing setups. While either will work, an RTD will typically be more accurate and remain more accurate over the brewing temperature range we use as it offers better linearity.

RTDs also remain more accurate over time (less drift which means less re-calibration). The cost difference between the two is negligible on most setups.

Kal
 
I don't understand a lot about electricity yet
Most important piece of advice I can give you: don't allow your impatience to get you ahead of your knowledge. This stuff is dangerous, and can easily kill you. I'm a DIY-minded guy with an electrical engineering degree, but when it comes to 220V/240V service... I know when to admit I'm beyond my experience (not knowledge, experience) and hire a professional.

For example, I've got no qualms about being able to wire up a safe rig, but I will be having an electrician install a 220V/50A outlet in my garage for brewing purposes.

FWIW, I've been working on my electrical setup for years. Condo living (and a wife who hates the smell of wort) meant I didn't brew much at my old place, but my e-kettle is done save the wiring. Now that we're in a big house, I'm starting to spin back up my various brewing projects, and will probably get back on the e-kettle soon - but not until I get my fermentation chamber set up, and I *might* still not brew until I get an all-grain rig built.

Parts & knowledge are two good things to be gathering until you are ready to plow ahead.
 
My life sucks....So I'm doing my routine monitoring of the bank accounts and credit card accounts...I get to my capital one card, and notice the credit available has dropped by $2k. I look at the overall credit limit...that hasn't changed...there's no big charges on the account (yet)...so I call the wife.

Turns out the gov't shorted our loans to her school by $2k, a loan I was under the impression that had already been PAID, and we wouldn't owe another $2k this semester.

So instead of the brewery build having $1k IN the fund, I've got -$1k. F...F...F...F..F..FFFFFFFFFF
 
That sucks! But the bright side of this is you now have a bit of time to read up on this stuff so you can be plenty educated when you decide to jump in feet first. I've been educating myself and slowly purchasing parts for my build for around a year now, there is nothing wrong with that.
 
I know lol...it just sucks because I'm one of those guys that has to do things at 100mph. At least now I won't rush it and screw something up (hopefully anyways!)
 
So I just did it...placed the order for pretty much all of the elements from Kal's site (including the bits) through amazon...buy once...use forever...right Kal! :)

I pretty much felt like this though on hitting the order button:



Now to order the PIDS/SSRs/RTD and the like, and wait for everything like a spoiled kid waiting for Christmas...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So I just did it...placed the order for pretty much all of the elements from Kal's site (including the bits) through amazon...buy once...use forever...right Kal! :)

I pretty much felt like this though on hitting the order button:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMS0O3kknvk

Now to order the PIDS/SSRs/RTD and the like, and wait for everything like a spoiled kid waiting for Christmas...

Depending on how many you need, the SSR's can be had for cheap if you look at ebay, everything else you've listed I would order from Auber.
 
Would you recommend this RTD: RTD How bout a link to the SSR you'd recommend on ebay?
 
That RTD would work fine, you just need to make sure that it's long enough for your application. How are you mounting it in your kettle? The probe on that one is 2.3" long. Maybe this one would work better depending on the application? It's also got a disconnect at the end so you can remove it without tools when you clean your equipment.

As for an SSR, I searched for 40A SSR and sorted by price and got this. Any SSR that will take a 12VDC signal on the input (this one takes 3-32VDC) and will take 240VAC on the load side (this one takes 24-380VAC) will work fine. You will also want an appropriately sized heatsink. If you don't have a heatsink from a CPU or something else in mind you could pick up a packaged deal like this.
 
I was going to go in through the side of the kettle. I was hoping to find a probe that's 6"...I'll see what else they may have...
 
I picked up 25ft of the 10/3...what type of the smaller wiring for the components will I need?
 
Depends on how many amps you're running through the wire & what kind of receptacle you're wiring it to. The below chart may help...

Untitled.jpg
 
Anything else I should get from Auber besides the 2 PIDs and 2 RTDs?
 
Timer? If you want to integrate that in to the control panel. Maybe some of the panel mount disconnects for the RTD's so you can disconnect the wires from both the RTD and the Control Panel if you want? Neither of those are necessary, but Auber carries them.
 
Some of their stuff looks pretty interesting - like I could use them in a smoker application pretty easily for some better bbq!
 
Depends on how many amps you're running through the wire & what kind of receptacle you're wiring it to. The below chart may help...

Where did you get this chart? I thought the 80% rule is for sizing circuit breakers and is independent of the cable to be used. I've also been led to believe it's fine to run 55A through a cable that's rated for 55A. Please let me know if that's wrong.
 
Where did you get this chart? I thought the 80% rule is for sizing circuit breakers and is independent of the cable to be used. I've also been led to believe it's fine to run 55A through a cable that's rated for 55A. Please let me know if that's wrong.

You are correct, you can run 55A through a cable that can handle 55A. The chart is part of a useful spreadsheet I found a while ago that calculates all kinds of useful stuff. The 80% "rule" is for sizing circuit breakers as far as I know.
 
Back
Top