A box barrel.

I'm looking around, and I've notices that barrels are fairly expensive. Also that I wouldn't know how to go about making one. I'm toying with the idea of making a barrel box for my cider. Basically just a wooden box held together with pressure or other means that will act as a barrel. Anyone think this will work? I know barrels are held together with pressure and precisely cut lids, but it should be able to be applied to a box. Ideas?

Are there any whiskey distilleries in your area? Buying a secondhand barrel is a lot cheaper. What you are describing may work, but seems a bit like learning to blow glass because carboys are too expensive.

Well, being down in southern california really puts a damper on finding an apple or hard nearby or any distilleries. I know in the area around me I can't find any distilleries without driving for quite a ways. And learning to blow glass wouldn't be a terrible idea. I'm a hands on kinda guy. Haha

I thought barrels work because they are round. That's how the pressure "seals" them, by distributing evenly. Pressure likes circles; angles, not so much.

I would think coopers would have figured out how to make cubic barrels after thousands of years if they were easier and cheaper. After all, they'd be easier to stack and store.

20 gal., food grade, plastic, trash can for under $30 with a lid from any restaurant supply retailer.

Hex said:

20 gal., food grade, plastic, trash can for under $30 with a lid from any restaurant supply retailer.

Click to expand...

I'm not so much looking for any ol container to use to age it, I wanted a wooden one specifically because they impart quite a nice flavor to whatever they hold. I'm looking to do one more nice batch before I'm off to the navy, and I want it to be special. Don't think I'll be doing much brewing there.

You can always use wood chips available from your local home brew outlet.

That's true. Should pick up a 5gal carboy and a brewing bucket. Up to this point vie been using 1gal glass bottles and balloons for airlocks. Talk about low tech.

Why is everyone dissuading him? If he wants to try making a cube "barrel" I think we shouldn't offer other "suggestions," he's not looking for that. If anyone has anyone has any woodworking skills/insights, that's what people who want to contribute should be offer. Other's should just stfu.

Bubbles I think it would be worth a try. Someone else on here is looking into making a wooden "conical" fermenter. Plus I think experimentation is great, so many breakthroughs in brewing have happened by messing around (using a turkey fryer, making a mash tun in a cooler, using an aquarium airstone and a red oxygen bottle to aerate.)

If you could come up with am easy, and possibly cheap alternative to a wooden barrel that we can make for ourself, that would be awesome.

One shape to consider would be the cuban Cajone box drum shape.





I'm not sure of the term, but obviously you would have to come up with a water tight "joint" between each edge/corner of the box.

i don't know how you would seal a cube unless you used caulk.

barrels seal because they have a metal rings compressed onto them.

Pitch would be the throwback "caulk". And frankly, there is no reason a cube couldn't be made watertight. Just think wooden aquarium.

motobrewer said:

i don't know how you would seal a cube unless you used caulk.

barrels seal because they have a metal rings compressed onto them.

Click to expand...

Tell that to the makers of Japanese Wooden Sake Masu, wooden sake cups...they seem to have mastered that.





They are pretty liquid tight.

I could always use straps to create the pressure. Straps running horizontally and vertically. They could put a lot of pressure on it if I use wratcheting straps.

1 cubic foot = 7.48051948 US gallons

Revvy said:

...Other's should just stfu....

Click to expand...

Wow, I expect this type of response from conspiracy forum admins and right wing radicals, but now from a 'cool' brewmeister?

I feel shamed for participating, that must be your intention.

If you haven't noticed the Cider forum has at most 10 new posts a day. If we were only allowed to give 'relevant (IYO)' suggestions, you might not even break 5.

OP good luck with your idea. IMHO wood is not something for beginners with limited time and high expectations.

Google wood hot tubs. The reason barrels are round is to get even pressure. I think it would be easier to build a cylinder than a square. You could easily figure out the chamfer, just figure out the circumference then divide by material width to get a stave count. Then divide the number of staves by 360, divide that result by 2, and you get the chamfer. (unless my cold induced headache is not thinking correctly). You could then use a table saw to chamfer the edges of the staves, a quick plane to smooth them out, and then use three pieces of banding steel to pull the whole thing together. You would need to build a top and bottom, which would need to be rabbetted(sp?) into the staves.

Just thinking about this and I go back to "why are barrels shapped as they are?" and I would say it is to make assembling them easy, basically you put all the wood together and the slid on the ring and press it down to squeeze the wood together, rather easy for someone to do lots quickly (ralitive to have to screw each barrel strap tight)
Now if you are only doing 1 or 2 or 3 it doesn't really matter how quick you can put these together, my idea would be some nice planned wood, cut to you box barrel dimensions and then make ties to hold it together out of angle iron and threaded rod.

If you want a better explaination let me know and I'll see if I can MS paint something for you.

Good luck!

mattd2 said:

Just thinking about this and I go back to "why are barrels shapped as they are?" and I would say it is to make assembling them easy, basically you put all the wood together and the slid on the ring and press it down to squeeze the wood together, rather easy for someone to do lots quickly (ralitive to have to screw each barrel strap tight)
Now if you are only doing 1 or 2 or 3 it doesn't really matter how quick you can put these together, my idea would be some nice planned wood, cut to you box barrel dimensions and then make ties to hold it together out of angle iron and threaded rod.

If you want a better explaination let me know and I'll see if I can MS paint something for you.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

Actually according to the reading I've been doing all day to nay say all you poo poo-er's that is not the reason barrels are shaped that way...And actually it is MUCH easier to just make a box, than it is to make a barrell...that's why Coopering is a specialized trade, while box building isn't.

Barrels often have a convex shape, bulging at the middle. This constant bulge makes it easier to roll a well-built wooden barrel on its side, changing directions with little friction. It also helps to distribute stress evenly in the material by making the container more spherical

Click to expand...

It was simply to make moving heavy things, whether it was beer, or nails or flour easier to move.

For nearly 2,000 years barrels were the most convenient form of shipping or storage container for those who could afford the superior price. All kinds of bulk goods, from nails to gold coins, were stored in them. Bags and most crates were cheaper, but they were not as sturdy and they were more difficult to manhandle for the same weight. Barrels slowly lost their importance in the 20th century, with the introduction of pallet-based logistics and containerization.

Click to expand...

They are losing their importance in other than the booze making industry, because there are other more efficient way to dong things, they don't need to be rolled anymore. And I betcha had they had a way to easily move Square liquid holding containers back in the day, we wouldn't be having this discussion, it would be the norm.

Heck, if the OP had simply come on with an already finished version of this, instead of asking for help, we'd all be humping his leg. That's the funny thing abut this place whenever anyone comes on looking for help with something that may be a little (excuse the pun) out of the box People come out of the woodwork to tell him what's wrong with his idea, instead of trying to help him solve any technical hurdles....

Bubbles, I hope you try this out, if anything to put the naysayers to rest. Or to prove to yourself if this isn't feasable, not just take these folks word for it.

I think it is a cool idea. I am a little taken aback by the bickering in this thread, but since I have been known to do the same thing I will offer one suggestion

If you go with a cube/rectangular prism shape, I think it would help to make the bottom plane on the inside of the "barrel" concave. This is basically doing the same thing as a conical fermenter by allowing the trub and yeast to settle out in a predermined manner as well as helping you collect every bit of beer possible with minimal splashing.

I am not normally one to jump on the oxidation bandwagon, but I am assuming that whatever you plan to age in a barrel-type-environment will be sitting for a long time.

Revvy said:

Actually according to the reading I've been doing all day to nay say all you poo poo-er's that is not the reason barrels are shaped that way...And actually it is MUCH easier to just make a box, than it is to make a barrell...that's why Coopering is a specialized trade, while box building isn't.



It was simply to make moving heavy things, whether it was beer, or nails or flour easier to move.



They are losing their importance in other than the booze making industry, because there are other more efficient way to dong things, they don't need to be rolled anymore. And I betcha had they had a way to easily move Square liquid holding containers back in the day, we wouldn't be having this discussion, it would be the norm.

Heck, if the OP had simply come on with an already finished version of this, instead of asking for help, we'd all be humping his leg. That's the funny thing abut this place whenever anyone comes on looking for help with something that may be a little (excuse the pun) out of the box People come out of the woodwork to tell him what's wrong with his idea, instead of trying to help him solve any technical hurdles....

Bubbles, I hope you try this out, if anything to put the naysayers to rest. Or to prove to yourself if this isn't feasable, not just take these folks word for it.

Click to expand...

I Hope I am not being included in this naysayer bunch?
Square boxes are (one of) the norm now for transprting small volumes of liquids - IBCs
But I think I might be missing revvy's point

I still reacon it would take more skill and time to actually finish a "watertight" square container than a barrel, you shape some planks and then push 2-4 collars on them (ok I know it would be a lot more work that that) but I can also see it would have a bit more forgiveness for errors aswell. A crate can be slapped together with no real thought put into it but a watertight box would require the skills of a carpenter.

Also Revvy, did you get your quotes from wikipedia?

Now I am not saying that you can't make a square barrel, I think it can be done and would be not all that dificult (probably easier than making you own round barrel as you wouldn't need to shape the wood) and I think someone should definatly give it a go. I would but I am already short on time & money .
My response was not to poo-poo the square barrel idea but to actually support it by thinking about why round barrels are made that way.

Also I would think about what wood to use, I don't know if you would want any treated wood near your beer.

Well, seeing as how a box that is 1 cubic foot holds 7 gallons, I don't think this project will be too difficult. Maybe, I'm underestimating this project, but it should by something fun to work on.

Bubbles541 said:

Well, seeing as how a box that is 1 cubic foot holds 7 gallons, I don't think this project will be too difficult. Maybe, I'm underestimating this project, but it should by something fun to work on.

Click to expand...

I keep leaning to the cajone shape shown above. In fact it reminds me of a conical in a lot of ways.

SPeaking of, here's the link to wortmonger's wooden conical thread.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/wooden-conical-fermenter-198881/?highlight=wooden+conical

You may find some inspiration.

I believe that coopers use a flour/water mixture to seal the lids of the barrels. Perhaps this could be used to seal the joints of the barrel box. I'm for the experiment. That being said , many of the small batch wine producers in our area (central to southern california) use 30 gal barrels to age their whites. A used barrel (which it seems that you would want) should be attainable without too much trouble. Either way keep us posted and you may be onto something with the barrel box.

http://www.winerysite.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.results

you want to try to find a barrel that has been used for less than 3 or 4 years otherwise there wont be much more oak flavor left in the oak (unless that's what you're going for) a neutral red barrel can be found pretty cheap, but finding a used white barrel is much harder.

The red barrel will impart some color and wine flavor to your beer.

I think your best bet if you're going to buy a barrel is to get a reconditioned barrel.

If you want to build a box barrel I would join the sides with dovetails. That way when they expand from the moisture it will tighten the seal. To create the sides I would just use dowels to join the pieces of wood since that's what they do with the ends of wine barrels.

I think the hardest part of it all will be finding the wood to do it. You're going to want either american, french, or hungarian oak and then you want to toast the inside of the barrel since that is what imparts the oak flavor. The more toast different flavors come out (kind of like with malt).

All in all I'd say there is a reason why cooperage is a skilled trade and there are only a few companies making barrels and why they cost so much

i would forget about trying to make a barrel, coopers make a hard job look easy. plus you may have more in tools and materials during the trial and error process where you could have bought one. this is a interesting project however so don't give up yet.

how about a wooden cylinder? it would be easier to make since it's straight sides and would require less tools. cut strips of wood into long pie shaped pieces, a notch near the end to hold the bottom(like a barrel) then use straps or bands to hold it together.

or if you're feeling real adventurous get a big lathe and a huge hunk of wood and turn one out...

-cheers

I had to register just to contribute. I have built a approx 5 gallon barrel out of white oak. My staves were 1/2 inch thick. You can't believe the amount of force required to bend the staves even when steamed and warm. I broke one ratchet strap trying to bring the top to close. It was a lot of trial and error, but by twisting a big rope I was able to get it close to closed.
For metal rings I used scavenged metal straps that hold construction lumber when delivered. I riveted and welded them. It was tough getting the correct size.
My last barrel was a one gallon size approximately. This one didn't have nearly as big a "belly" as the other one. It was still really difficult to bring the top in.
Another big challenge for me was stave design. I think if I could sit down with a cooper and learn what is the best stave design I would be light years ahead of where I am now. I didn't know if the staves should have a gentle curve to them along the side or if they would be a straight line diamond-like shape. I went with a straight sided diamond shaped stave.
Neither one of my barrels held water. The first barrel, the 5 gallon size, wasn't even close to watertight. But it was my first experiment. It looks really cool and will make a nice planter or something. The one gallon size came close to holding water. Initially it really leaked a lot, but as the wood fibers swelled the leaks slowed, but never completely stopped.
I think with some design help and tips I could produce a water or cider tight barrel. I was going to age some hard cider in a toasted barrel as an experiment, and someday I may revisit the experiment.
Good luck with your project.

If I ever get to 25 posts I'll post a couple pics of my barrel projects.

I know there are other woodworkers here on HBT, but guess I get to go first...

A few things to keep in mind about wood:

Wood expands and contracts across the grain with humidity.

The joints in a barrel will get tighter as the barrel absorbs moisture from the liquid it contains. The rings prevent it from blowing out.

Wood does not expand very much in length with humidity.

You have to anticipate and build your vessel with these facts in mind.

If you assemble with cross grain joints, you are likely to end up with cracks if you don't make provisions for the wood to move at different rates.

I think for a novice wood worker, a round water tight vessel would be pretty tough.
A square vessel will be easier, but is more likely to crack if it expands more than anticipated.
The top and bottom will involve cross grain joints, so you will want to find a way to make them without glue or mechanical fasteners (screws) to allow them to expand without cracking the sides. A silicon gasket for the top & bottom should get you close.

I know it's just a jumble of random thoughts, but hopefully it will help you out a bit.

Good luck.

Ohio-Ed said:

A silicon gasket for the top & bottom should get you close.

Click to expand...

Do you think Silicon will deteriorate in an alcohol rich environment? The batch I'd like to put in there will be about 10% I believe. Or at least roughly that amt. considering I don't have a hydrometer.

Silicone should be fine.

So, then making a watertight box just got a whole lot easier I think. I could just build it so it recesses into the base bored, with silicon pressed into the joints, and have the sides held together with maybe dove tails, also sealed with silicon, and the same with the top as the bottom. Except the top will have a hole drilled for the bung.

Actually, I was thinking of a silicone gasket, like an o-ring. Probably cut something from a sheet of silicone if you're gonna go square. I was not thinking silicone adhesive. If you use adhesive to attach the top and bottom, it is likely to crack, or cause the wood to crack.

I would certainly make the top (or bottom) removable so you can clean it.

BTW... You mentioned a 1 cubic foot box. The amount of expansion depends on a lot of factors include the cut of the lumber (quarter, flat or rift sawed, etc), but I think you could expect at least 1/4" across a 1 foot side.

good luck on the brew box project.

If the goal is how to get a decent barrel on a low budget, I believe Baybrewer has the right idea for Southern CA. Too bad no distilleries. How about tequila? That gets aged in white oak barrels a lot.

I can see the downside of a used barrel is they might be 50 bucks or less but are usually at least 50 gallons, which is a lot of cider to deal with at once. although you could get lucky and find a homebrewer selling a small one on craigslist.

If you go new, it looks like the cheapest you can get is a 5gal oak barrel shipped to you is about 200 bucks and it goes up from there, so I can see why you'd want to make something

For a small volume like 5 gal, you may not need the intrinsic structural integrity of a barrel to keep it together, but it will be tricky to keep it from warping over time with fermentation inside, humidity changes outside. Rectangular band are inherently weaker than round ones, but may be enough to do the job for 5-10 gal. It seems that evenly toasting a cubical box might be challenging. You might want to practice on a plywood one first.

+1 for pics of jimmyjet's barrels - sounds like you're close man. 3rd time's the charm

Id love to get my hands on a 3 gallon barrel. But I'm pretty sure they don't make those. I'll look around fir a barrel, and I'll try to get around to making this one sometime before I go.