First Wort Hopping: To replace which addition

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mezman

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OK, I'm starting my Oktoberfest tomorrow and I've been thinking about using a FWH with it. I've been reading everything I can find about it but it's still not clear to me which addition I should move forward to the FWH. I've read some folks who say to move your late additions forward to the FWH. Others seem to say that since you get 10% more IBUs than a 60 minute boil, to move your bittering addition forward to a FWH. So I'm confused.

My hop schedule currently looks as such:

60min - 1oz Tettang
20min - 1oz Tettang
10min - 1oz Hallertauer

I've put all that into beersmith and it guesstimates that I'll have 31 IBUs. If I change my last addition, the Hallertauer, to a FWH, Beersmith says I'll have 40 IBUs! That seems like a lot for an Oktoberfest.

If I just make the 60min addition a FWH instead, that keeps the calculated IBUs about where I want them and makes the most intuitive sense to me since the hops will be in the boil for a full 60 minutes anyway but most of the advice I read seem to say otherwise.

So...help? :confused:
 
From what I understand, and do, is replace the full boil hop (bittering) as the fwh. I.e. Like your second case. Anyone do different?

Edit: that way you get that hops flavors in the hot wort, that isn't yet boiling, and then get bittering as well
 
You should get a 10% ibu increase (debateable) AND flavor from a FWH. Bitterness tends to be a bit more mellow, and you get flavor and some aroma. I haven't done this with whole hops so aroma may also be more predominate than I noticed

Since you are using tett for bitter and flav, I'd use beersmith etc to figure out your FWH and use enough to get you the same IBU's.

Your going to have to wing it till you get a feel for FWH. I don't think anyone really completely understands how/why FHW'ing actually works.
 
I thought they worked more like a 20 minute addition but don't hold me to that. In addition, I don't think beersmith treats it that way, It just seems to consider it being there longer and increasing IBU's.
 
Woohoo! another CO front-ranger brewing during the "spring storm"! Only drizzle in Arvada today, had to boil in the garage...

I did an ESB today, FWH with 1 oz. Goldings, then added NB at 60 & 50 minutes, followed by more Goldings every 10 minutes to FO. (BU:GU = 0.84). I like to add hops throughout the boil as it lends a nice hop profile, in addition to FWH. Dry hop, too. Get as much hop flavor as you can, I say!
 
All I know is that my beers come out better when I FWH. Sometimes I skip the bittering and Do a FWH; other times, like tonight, I do both. I've noticed that I don't need to dry hop if I FWH.
 
Everything I have read, and done, only moves up the late addition hops to FWH. It does NOTHING to the bittering hops. It doesnt replace anything, when I brew, or from tjhe research I have done. It simply MOVES the late addition hops to FWH. I have never read any FWH article that states to remove the bittering addition with FWH. In fact, everything I have read also states that you should be using LOW AA and/or NOBLE hops in the FWH addition. IF this is so, then that precludes the use of many "bittering" hops.

Noble hops are GREAT for FWHing, so take those Hallertau and move them up to FWH, leave the rest the same, IMHO. It may say you have 40IBU, but I can pretty much guarantee it wont taste like it. The flavor of a FWH is much different than a typical bittering addition.

In most brewing software you can adjust the utilization for FWHing, in ProMash I have it set equal to a 20 minute addition. If i don't, it gives me some crazy IBU figure and my beers are never that bitter. They are full of hop flavor, but not that bitter.
 
+1 to The Pol. FWH typically uses your flavor (or 20 min. addition) as FWH. HOwever, there's no reason to limit FWH to only low AA or noble hops. I've done many FWH batches with high alpha American hops and it works great. Although tests I've had done show FHW to yield 10% more IBU than an equal 60 min, addition, the beer doesn't taste as bitter. For that reason, I also set Promash to equal a 20 min. bitterness from FWH.
 
I agree w/ Pol/Denny.

If I were gonna move a hop addition I would move the entire 20 min. addition to FWH. The calc should give you the same bitterness number but it should taste smoother than that and you should still get the flavor from the FWH.

However: IMO, you are pushing it with 31 IBUs in an Oktoberfest and there should be no hop aroma and very little to no hop flavor. But that's just what the BJCP Style Guidelines say...it's your beer and you can do whatever you want. I FWH'd and threw a tiny aroma addition in my Marzen just because that's the way I wanted it.:)
 
Denny said:
+1 to The Pol. FWH typically uses your flavor (or 20 min. addition) as FWH. However, there's no reason to limit FWH to only low AA or noble hops. I've done many FWH batches with high alpha American hops and it works great. Although tests I've had done show FWH to yield 10% more IBU than an equal 60 min, addition, the beer doesn't taste as bitter. For that reason, I also set Promash to equal a 20 min. bitterness from FWH.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think many people are over complicating FWH.

If you move your bittering to FWH it will give you the same (or possibly 10% more) IBU's as when they're used as a standard bittering addition AND will impart flavor, similar to as adding them as a 20 min or so addition.

If you take something like noble hop with low IBU, it will do the same as above. You will get similar IBU's as if you moved them to a bittering addition AND you will get flavor from it.

I find the flavor is a bit smoother with any particular hop when used as a FWH. I also find that it mellows the bitterness of co-humolone in bittering hops. (of course you will also get the flavor so if it's a hop like bullion, that is not necessarily a good thing, depending on beer style).

Hops like Mt. Hood or Sterling, with decent or good flavor AND higher IBU's can make a great FWH addition.

Basically it's like you are saying. OK, if I add this hop as a FWH I will be getting bitterness and flavor from it.
 
+1 on adding late addition hops to FWH, and leave the bittering addition unchanged. I use mostly flavor hops with a bit of aroma hops thrown in.
 
Pardon the ignorance but what in the world is First Wort Hopping? Can somebody post a link to bring me up to speed? Thanks
 
Hilbert said:
Pardon the ignorance but what in the world is First Wort Hopping? Can somebody post a link to bring me up to speed? Thanks
Click to expand...

You use ONLY the first THREE hop comes off the plant. These are the best hops of the season.

:D:D
 
Only thing I have to add is the different character that you get from putting in your 3hops (4 for an IPA) is that it is attributed to the gradual increase in temperature which makes your hop addition behave a little differently. I hadn't seen this mentioned in this thread or in the first 5 links from lmgtfy.com (very cool link, in a byotch-slap sorta way ).

-OCD
 
Denny said:
+1 to The Pol. FWH typically uses your flavor (or 20 min. addition) as FWH. HOwever, there's no reason to limit FWH to only low AA or noble hops. I've done many FWH batches with high alpha American hops and it works great. Although tests I've had done show FHW to yield 10% more IBU than an equal 60 min, addition, the beer doesn't taste as bitter. For that reason, I also set Promash to equal a 20 min. bitterness from FWH.
Click to expand...

But that just doesn't seem to make intuitive sense to me. How would putting the hops into the wort even earlier than the start of the boil, result in less bitterness? The same hops and the same alpha acids are still going to be in the boil pot for the full 60 minutes of the boil to isometerize. Maybe the hop flavor is more rounded so it the bitterness isn't as bitey? But for your bittering hops, the main point is to offset the malt sweetness to keep your beer from being cloyingly sweet, right?

I think I need to try FWH in a shorter lead time beer t get a better handle on it. I'm going to brew an APA this weekend, so I'll try it again and should be able to tell how that goes by mid June.
 
mezman,
Regarding the bitterness; you are correct that there are more isomerized alpha acids (they have measured this)...but it just doesn't taste as bitter as the IBUs would indicate and is a smoother bitterness. So people use the 20 min addition number to kind of 'fudge' the IBU number so that the perceived bitterness is in balance. Otherwise you might get a beer that seemed under-hopped; even though the measured iso-alpha-acids would seem to be in balance.

The flavor and alleged aroma are supposedly different than late additions because the volatile oils are not immediately boiled off (due to it being ~160* wort instead of boiling wort), giving time for...some not-fully-understood-reaction(s)...to occur.
 
Not that I am 100% disagreeing,

but I did the Hobgoblin clone with FWH, and no 60min addition, and it came out plenty bitter. And that was with using Beersmiths calculations.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
mezman,
Regarding the bitterness; you are correct that there are more isomerized alpha acids (they have measured this)...but it just doesn't taste as bitter as the IBUs would indicate and is a smoother bitterness. So people use the 20 min addition number to kind of 'fudge' the IBU number so that the perceived bitterness is in balance. Otherwise you might get a beer that seemed under-hopped; even though the measured iso-alpha-acids would seem to be in balance.

The flavor and alleged aroma are supposedly different than late additions because the volatile oils are not immediately boiled off (due to it being ~160* wort instead of boiling wort), giving time for...some not-fully-understood-reaction(s)...to occur.
Click to expand...

Well crap. Now you have me worried that my Oktoberfest is gonna be jacked and underhopped. :(

So then do the volitale oils that aren't boiled off thanks to the "then a miracle occurs" part of FWH mask the bitterness? All the IBUs are there but you can't taste them because the flavor is so front loaded with the oils?
 
This has been a good read. Thanks for all of the info, guys. I've not done FWH yet.

Just out of curiosity an not critiquing in any way but why are there late additions at all in the Märzen? Just for your own tastes?
 
Some excerpts from this article:
3. Tasting panel results: the FWH beers were overwhelmingly preferred over the reference beers in triangular taste tests (i.e., each taster was given three beers, two of either the reference beer or the FWH beer, and one of the other, and had to correctly identify which two were alike before their preference results were incorporated in the database). 11 of 12 tasters of each beer preferred the FWH beer. The main reasons given for the preference: "a fine, unobtrusive hop aroma; a more harmonic beer; a more uniform bitterness."

4. Analytical results--bitterness: The FWH beers had more IBUs than did the reference beers. Brew A: Ref beer was 37.9 IBU, FWH beer was 39.6 IBU. Brew B: Ref beer was 27.2 IBU, FWH beer was 32.8 IBU. This should come as no surprise, since more hops were in the kettle for the boil in the FWH beers than in the Reference beers. Prior to fermentation, the worts from both breweries showed the following features: the FWH wort had substantially more isomerized alpha acids, but less non-isomerized alphas. This was particularly true of Brew B, which had a higher proportion of first-wort hops. Nevertheless, the bitterness of the FWH beers was described as more pleasing than the (slightly weaker) bitterness of the reference beers.

5. Analytical results--aroma: For the aroma compounds, very distinct differences were measured (gas chromatography) in both the identities and concentrations of the various aromatic compounds between the FWH beers and the reference beers. Because the precise nature of the effects of aromatic compounds on beer flavor are very complicated, it cannot be said with certainty just why the various measurements resulted in the overwhelming tasting preference, but clearly something is going on here. Even though the reference beers had higher *absolute amounts* of most of the aroma compounds, again the FWH beers got higher ratings for overall pleasure.
Click to expand...
 
Great information in this thread guys, thanks! :)

Questions though:

In Beersmith, you have the option to change any hop addition to FWH, but you still have the ability to change the time. Why is this (probably a question for the creator) and what would be the best time to input to get the most accurate IBU calculation?

Someone (I think Pol) mentioned setting it to 20 min in Promash. Would that be the same in Beersmith?

I'm planning on brewing my Amber with FWH...just want to dial it in. Thanks guys! :mug:
 
Bjornbrewer said:
Someone (I think Pol) mentioned setting it to 20 min in Promash. Would that be the same in Beersmith?
Click to expand...

Probably, but I'm not sure how FWH utilization works in Beersmith. It's subjective, anyway. I set it to that because that what it tastes like to me.

FWIW, in Promash FWH utilization is set not as a time, but as a % of the total boil time. I set my Promash FWH utilization to -65%, which equals 2/3 of the way through a 60 min. boil, or 20 min.
 
Denny said:
Probably, but I'm not sure how FWH utilization works in Beersmith. It's subjective, anyway. I set it to that because that what it tastes like to me.

FWIW, in Promash FWH utilization is set not as a time, but as a % of the total boil time. I set my Promash FWH utilization to -65%, which equals 2/3 of the way through a 60 min. boil, or 20 min.
Click to expand...

Yah, in ProMash I just used like 1 ounce of Cascade at 20 minutes and looked at the IBUs. Then I just kept tweaking the utilization #s for 1 ounce of FWH until it matched. Again, it is subjective and it is perception of IBU. You can set it to whatever you like.
 
SpanishCastleAle said:
Some excerpts from this article:
Click to expand...

Good information. Thanks.

My two cents:

I've used FWH in about 55 batches. Mind you, this was a long time ago. But what I personally noticed was that, yes, it cleaned up the bitterness. It was more round and cleaner. I don't believe it lowered the IBUs though. I used all sorts of hops with this. If you like the way the hop smells, go ahead with it. I've used Chinook for this and had great results, for example.

Also, I had 3 beers that I entered into a Collaborator competition in Portland back then (in 2000) and as part of that competition, they give you free chemical analysis of your beer. At the time I was not using brewing software, I was hand calculating the IBUs but from what I recall I was using the equations in Ray Daniels Designing Great Beers book. In two instances, I calculated the FWH as 27% utilization (using whole hops) in a 90 minute boil. In the third instance, it was pellets calculated at 34% utilization.

And in 2 instance the IBUs were a little lower in my calculations than in the measured IBUs. In the third, with pellets, my calculation was 1 IBU higher than reality.

Mind you, I did not have a control beer that did NOT have them added. So, take this for what it's worth. Not exactly scientific, but it's the only time I had my beer analyzed by a lab, so thought it might be worth sharing.

Beer 1 was as such:

FWH Columbus (15.5% AA) .25 oz.
FWH Chinook (12.3% AA) .25 oz.
FWH Crystal (2.1% AA) .75 oz.

This beer I calculated at 63 IBUs. It was measured as 65.9. (And it won!)

Beer 2:

FWH Horizon (11.3% AA) .25 oz.

This beer I calculated at 49 IBUs. It was measured as 56.3.

Beer 3 used pellets. So, I calculated it at 34% utilization for this:

FWP Northdown (10% AA) .50 oz.

This beer I calculated at 50 IBUs. It was measured as 49.

These beers used other hop additions at 30, 15 and 5 minutes from the end of the boil. I didn't remove any aroma or flavor hops when using this and generally had good results, though rereading this material makes me consider minimizing some aroma additions when doing this.
 
Preface: Newbie..


From what I've read FWH is reserved for partial and AG methods, what about extract brewing? Is a similar result achieve by adding the hops when steeping the specialty grains? Would it have a similar or different effect?
 
MattHollingsworth said:
...
At the time I was not using brewing software, I was hand calculating the IBUs but from what I recall I was using the equations in Ray Daniels Designing Great Beers book. In two instances, I calculated the FWH as 27% utilization (using whole hops) in a 90 minute boil. In the third instance, it was pellets calculated at 34% utilization.
...
Click to expand...

Are those the same % as a 90 minute addition that isn't FWH?

Also, did you put all of your bittering hops in FWH?
 
HairyDogBrewing said:
Are those the same % as a 90 minute addition that isn't FWH?

Also, did you put all of your bittering hops in FWH?
Click to expand...

That is the same utilization % that I was using at the time for 90 minute additions, yes. And yes, I put no other bittering hops. Other hop additions were at 30, 15 and 5 minutes from the end of the boil.
 

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