Extract bewing - use corn sugar as well?

Hi,

Iv done a few extract brews now with some success.

In a homebrew book I read that you should use some sugar with all-extract brewing unless its a Porter/Stout. The reason given is that the yeast can't always fully ferment out the malt. The book said to use about 200g to 500g (4oz to 7oz)sugar wheather it was corn/raw sugar etc. Would this effect the taste?

My last beer was a good example where the OG was 1062, FG only 1021.

The reason im asking is that with the below recipe, I think I need more fermentables. The batch is 6 gal, I was thinking of adding a little corn sugar for it.

Type: Extract
Batch Size: 24.98 L (6gal)
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.93 lb Pale Liquid Extract (8.0 SRM) Extract 41.99 %
3.93 lb Pale Liquid Extract [Boil for 15 min] Extract 41.99 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 10.68 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 5.34 %
0.90 oz Southern Cross [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 15.6 IBU
0.75 oz Fuggles [6.90 %] (30 min) Hops 5.7 IBU
0.75 oz Fuggles [6.90 %] (15 min) Hops 3.7 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.044 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.011 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.21 %
Bitterness: 37.5 IBU Calories: 610 cal/l
Est Color: 20.4 SRM Color: Color


Should I just go with the above recipe or add corn sugar to boost it? Any thoughts on the recipe in general?

Cheers!!!

The recipe looks fine as it is to me. I wouldn't add or change a thing.

I suspect the reason your last beer only attenuated to 1021 was due to a problem with fermentation. When you do the math, you reached ~65% attenuation, which, while distressingly low, is still something one experiences, especially with the little packets of yeast one gets with kits.

Kindly detail your fermentation for us from your last batch: type of yeast, how much yeast pitched, average temperature during fermentation, type of fermenter.

Managing fermentation is arguably the single most important skill brewers must master. You might wish to select another yeast (I remember you wrote elsewhere that yeast selection in NZ is poor) or do something else to provide more managability of your fermentations.

Cheers,

Bob

P.S. Ponga rā! Kapa o Pango, aue hī!

BobNQ3X said:

The recipe looks fine as it is to me. I wouldn't add or change a thing.

I suspect the reason your last beer only attenuated to 1021 was due to a problem with fermentation. When you do the math, you reached ~65% attenuation, which, while distressingly low, is still something one experiences, especially with the little packets of yeast one gets with kits.

Kindly detail your fermentation for us from your last batch: type of yeast, how much yeast pitched, average temperature during fermentation, type of fermenter.

Managing fermentation is arguably the single most important skill brewers must master. You might wish to select another yeast (I remember you wrote elsewhere that yeast selection in NZ is poor) or do something else to provide more managability of your fermentations.

Cheers,

Bob

P.S. Ponga rā! Kapa o Pango, aue hī!

Click to expand...

Thanks for that post. Yes yeast selection very poor in NZ. We have most of the safale/saflager types however. OK maybe won't add sugar... hopefully still strong enough alc with good fermentation.

With the other batch, here is a brief summary...

Plastic Coopers fermentater. In semi dark room out of sun etc. Safale Yeast 04.

OG 1062, FG 1022.

After 5 days it was 1030.
After 12 days it was 1024.

Pitched @ 16*C. Fermented @ 16-18*C for 3 weeks, then 18-19*C another 10 days. Re-hydrated the yeast in water before pitching. Steady fermentation for a week. Slow after that. Shook the bucket twice in the last week but only dropped 1 point.

Have since bottled, adding priming sugar so its only 1.9 carbonation. Hope its ok.


Type: Extract
Batch Size: 6.60 gal
Boil Size: 2.50 gal
Boil Time: 60 min

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.94 lb Dark Liquid Extract [Boil for 15 min] Extract 61.41 %
3.30 lb Dark Liquid Extract (17.5 SRM) Extract 25.52 %
0.84 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.50 %
0.50 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.87 %
0.35 lb Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 2.71 %
1.00 oz Southern Cross [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 11.2 IBU
0.75 oz Fuggles [6.90 %] (35 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.021 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.03 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.35 %
Bitterness: 35.5 IBU Calories: 283 cal/pint
Est Color: 32.8 SRM Color: Color

........

Oh I got Safale 05 instead of 04 for my next batch. Is there much difference? It said it ferments out better on the packet.

Yeah, 05 is more attenuating than 04. 05 is an American Ale yeast, like Wyeast 1056 or WLP001. 04 is an English strain.

It doesn't surprise me that your dark ale attenuated only that far. Dark extracts can contain quite a lot of unfermentable solids, compared to pale extract. I suggest you solve that by using the palest extract you can find as a base.

That said, all extracts are not created equal. Cooper's extracts tend to leave a full-bodied beer, as they contain larger amounts of unfermentable dextrins as compared to, say, Muntons. The fermentation characteristics of different extracts are something you'll have to figure out in your brewery over time.

I think your dark ale will be fine. Give a sufficient time in the bottle, carbonation will surely develop nicely.

Non-malt sugar in brewing is a hot topic. For most styles, it is unnecessary. For some, it is crucial (certain Belgian styles, for instance). When making ales of the type you seem to be brewing, sugar is not necessary.

I can't believe you didn't rise to the All-Blacks bait!

Bob

BobNQ3X said:

It doesn't surprise me that your dark ale attenuated only that far. Dark extracts can contain quite a lot of unfermentable solids, compared to pale extract. I suggest you solve that by using the palest extract you can find as a base.

I can't believe you didn't rise to the All-Blacks bait!

Bob

Click to expand...

Oh was that part of the All Blacks Haka? It looks different written down! Only know a few maori words

Gonna be good watching the All Blacks thrash Aussie this weekend never the less :rockin: :rockin: :rockin:

Yeah I was told by someone else here to use light extract instead of the dark one afterwards. I normally use Muntons extract, or else BlackRock a kiwi one. Most of my batches are worked out by how much malt I have, so I'd do a bigger gallon beer if using 3 cans or smaller if only 2 cans.

Dry malt is too expensive and hard to get it seems here.

PS: How did you work out 65% attenuation?

I Always use 1 cup of corn sugar with all my Coopers kits (plus 1.5 lbs pale liquid malt extract). Reason is that dry yeast isn't as good as liquid yeast, and a little bit of corn sugar will help the yeast start off and grow.


Tony.

As an aside here, that book was way off in it's conversions.

1kg is 2.2 pounds roughly. So 500g of sugar is 1.1 pounds of sugar, not 7 ounces, which is less than 250 grams of sugar.

the yeast selection in NZ is pretty good i use wyeast you just need to go to the right shops

Kiwi_Jonno said:

Oh was that part of the All Blacks Haka? It looks different written down! Only know a few maori words

Gonna be good watching the All Blacks thrash Aussie this weekend never the less

Click to expand...

I just wish I could get it on TV! Bloody stupid American football, with their endless breaks for rest and armour. Give blood! Play Rugby!

Yeah I was told by someone else here to use light extract instead of the dark one afterwards. I normally use Muntons extract, or else BlackRock a kiwi one.

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Muntons is a very good product. I'm not familiar with BlackRock, as it's not available here.

It's always a good idea to keep your base malt as pale an extract as possible. Think of it as a bowl of rice. By itself, it doesn't look like or taste like much. But if you put some black pepper on it, it's different. If you put some chicken tikka masala on it, it's wildly different. But at the core, at its base what fills you up is the bowl of rice.

PS: How did you work out 65% attenuation?

Click to expand...

Backwards. If you divide the FG by the OG after removing the 1.0, you get the difference. For example, FG=1.022=22, and OG=1.062=62. 22/62=0.35. 100-35=65. There's an easier way to do it but I misremember it. Someone else will weigh in and tell me how stupid I am.

Bob

kinghellsfire_NZ said:

the yeast selection in NZ is pretty good i use wyeast you just need to go to the right shops

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I see your in CHCH too, where do you go? I normally go to Your Shout or that place on Linclon Rd and there is only dry yeast?

TheFlatline said:

As an aside here, that book was way off in it's conversions.

1kg is 2.2 pounds roughly. So 500g of sugar is 1.1 pounds of sugar, not 7 ounces, which is less than 250 grams of sugar.

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Yeah ok that was me doing a quick calculation between grams and pounds ...

The books extract recipes have 250g-500g or sugar in them as well as malt extract. I was trying to convert to pounds for the american following on here

Book is "The Complete Guide to Beer & Brewing" by Laurie Strachan.

Kiwi_Jonno said:

The book said to use about 200g to 500g (4oz to 7oz)sugar wheather it was corn/raw sugar etc. Would this effect the taste?

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I'd be skeptical of any book that interchanges "corn" with "raw" or any sugar with *200 to 500grams* for any recipe. Corn sugar is supposedly more effecient for yeast, so you get less off tastes. Cane sugar is frowned upon in brewing circles, because while fermentable, can produce more of an off taste. But I'm a purist when it comes to recipes.....so the only time I've added sugar for fermentation is candi sugar (a crystalized belgian sugar used for high gravity). When I was only doing extract brewing, I never had problems reaching my estimated gravity just using malts (it's more common to use sugars to raise your gravity for high alcohol beers).

davesrose said:

I'd be skeptical of any book that interchanges "corn" with "raw" or any sugar with *200 to 500grams* for any recipe. Corn sugar is supposedly more effecient for yeast, so you get less off tastes. Cane sugar is frowned upon in brewing circles, because while fermentable, can produce more of an off taste. But I'm a purist when it comes to recipes.....so the only time I've added sugar for fermentation is candi sugar (a crystalized belgian sugar used for high gravity). When I was only doing extract brewing, I never had problems reaching my estimated gravity just using malts (it's more common to use sugars to raise your gravity for high alcohol beers).

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The book even said to use brown sugar for some styles. Kinda weird. "Use dark brown sugar for dark beers, raw sugar for bitters and so on..."

I think I'll stick to malt for now. Perhaps try different yeasts.

brewNdrink said:

I Always use 1 cup of corn sugar with all my Coopers kits (plus 1.5 lbs pale liquid malt extract). Reason is that dry yeast isn't as good as liquid yeast, and a little bit of corn sugar will help the yeast start off and grow.


Tony.

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Really?! I always find the opposite to be true. In fact, if it weren't for the fact that there are more liquid yeast strains and beer styles that occasionally require them, I would never use them at all! I had to extract stouts that I used Nottingham Dry Yeast on and got down to 1.012. It would have gone lower if it had been all grain. Safale/Safbrew dry yeasts are great and I would swear by them.

To the OP I agree with Bob on this. The darker extracts don't ferment as well as the pale or amber. 5 oz or so of sugar ought to help with better attenuation.

brewNdrink said:

I Always use 1 cup of corn sugar with all my Coopers kits (plus 1.5 lbs pale liquid malt extract). Reason is that dry yeast isn't as good as liquid yeast, and a little bit of corn sugar will help the yeast start off and grow.


Tony.

Click to expand...

You'd do your beer much better if you used DME instead of sugar for this purpose. One of the first things yeast does, regardless of strain or dry/liquid, is to produce the enzymes needed to consume the particular type of sugar it finds. Feeding yeast corn sugar may let it start to work faster, but it will be ready to work on corn sugar, and not malt sugar.

Aside from the thinning and cidery flavors, you're opening the door to unwanted esters the yeast can produce if it finds itself needing to stop and change its enzyme production midstream.

Also, while certain styles may need the proper strain of yeast, which may be only availible in liquid for now, basic styles can be done with award winning results using dry strains. I've found that a properly rehydrated and proofed dry yeast takes off just as fast, if not faster than liquid strains. The longest lag time I've had was with a liquid strain.