I completely underestimated role of oxygen

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SpanishCastleAle said:
Any O2 over the saturation level for a given temp would just come out of solution, so you're right that reducing it just to hit a number might seem fruitless because it will come out as you warm it back up.

Let's suppose shaking at 40*f does indeed get you 10ppm of oxygen (I have no idea if it does or not). Why do you think warming up would cause it to leave solution? The wort doesn't care if the O2 came from an oxygen tank or shaking or whatever. If room temp wort can keep 10ppm oxygen dissolved then it doesn't matter how it got there. As long as you don't shake it up, the oxygen should stay dissolved.

Edit: essentially the limiting factor of traditional aeration is the ambient oxygen concentration, not the saturation point of dissolved oxygen in the wort.
 
Let's suppose shaking at 40*f does indeed get you 10ppm of oxygen (I have no idea if it does or not). Why do you think warming up would cause it to leave solution? The wort doesn't care if the O2 came from an oxygen tank or shaking or whatever. If room temp wort can keep 10ppm oxygen dissolved then it doesn't matter how it got there. As long as you don't shake it up, the oxygen should stay dissolved.

Edit: essentially the limiting factor of traditional aeration is the ambient oxygen concentration, not the saturation point of dissolved oxygen in the wort.

You're very wrong about that. At fermentation temps, 8ppm of dissolved oxygen IS the saturation point of air in beer. That's why all methods using ambient air (whether shaking, using an aquarium pump, or anything else you could possibly conceive of) share the exact same limit. You can even compress the air all you want, but as long as it remains the same proportion of oxygen, it makes absolutely no difference even if you're able to temporarily double the amount of oxygen per cubic inch.

The thing you seem to be overlooking is that 8ppm is simply the amount of oxygen when you dissolve air into the beer, but you are still dissolving all the other gases present in air into the beer. So if you add up all the other gases you dissolve by shaking, it's well over 8ppm, but these gases are unimportant and useless for our purposes to even talk about when comparing dissolved oxygen resulting from different aeration methods, since these other gases are, at best, totally useless to yeast - and in fact, CO2 is even harmful to it.

That's the one and only reason an oxygen tank allows you to dissolve more oxygen. Not because it's compressed or anything, but because it's pure oxygen. The limit of total dissolved gases - whether using an oxygen tank, aquarium pump, or simply shaking vigorously - will be roughly the same. I say roughly because gases do vary in terms of solubility, but the point is that when talking about solubility, solutes are additive - they DO NOT dissolve independent of one another, and DO NOT each reach their own saturation point regardless of the other solutes present within the solvent. An equilibrium forms between the mixture of solutes (in this case, air) and in practical terms, that mixture can kind of be thought of as having its own solubility and saturation points. Interesting to note is that most atmospheric gases of any significance (with the exception of CO2 and argon) are even more soluble in water than oxygen anyways, including nitrogen. The only thing preventing you from dissolving more gas into the wort is indeed that you reach the point of saturation. Raising the temperature lowers the saturation point and WILL cause oxygen (and the other gases) to come out of solution.

According to Henry's Law, there are two ways to increase the saturation point: lower the temperature of the solvent, or increase the pressure of the gas directly above it (essentially what we do to achieve carbonation, and why the CO2 only comes out of solution, forming bubbles, when the bottle is opened.) Fermentation can be done under increased pressure, so it presents some interesting possibilities (though it is known to stress the yeast) but it is a bit absurd to think about using the shake method because, due to the fact that the method totally precludes isolating the air at the top of the fermenter from the rest of the room since that's directly how you're introducing the air. So the only way it's even doable is is to shake it in a high pressure environment - either a pressurized room/chamber, or WAY below sea level. And with a typical homebrew fermenter, you'd have to leave it there, because it would come out of solution in a lower pressure environment by equalizing through the airlock, and sealing the thing would just make it explode with any significant pressure differential - a pressure valve would be useless since typical plastic and glass fermentors can't handle any significant amount of pressure anyways. Perhaps a stainless steel conical built for functioning under pressure would work, but I'm sure by now, anybody reading this would have realized that this is all far more complicated and expensive than just using an oxygen tank. If YOU REALLY want a higher ppm at the cheapest cost possible, you COULD just forget the stone, buy an oxygen tank, purge the fermenter headspace with oxygen, and then vigorously shake it, but if you're going to do that, I find it silly to just stop there, not to mention that it becomes extremely difficult to gauge how much oxygen is being dissolved, and it would be very easy to seriously under-oxygenate the wort (rendering the oxygen pointless) or even significantly over-oxygenate by attempting to compensate and make sure that you're not doing the former. It can be pretty difficult and back-breaking to reach 8ppm with the normal shake method, but due to the difficulty in estimating dissolved oxygen as well as the inherent inconsistency of the method preventing experimentation to settle on a combination of time and intensity that produces the best result (in lieu of knowing the actual oxygen levels), that 8ppm limit is probably, overall, a good thing...

However, if somebody already has a a conical able to withstand decent amounts of pressure, an aquarium pump alone could actually be sufficient, depending on how much pressure the pump itself could handle. As stated before though, shaking still isn't really viable in this situation due to the need to perform it in a high pressure environment, and the cost of doing something like that would be stupidly high.

The implications of Henry's Law for our high-altitude friends is very interesting though. The higher the altitude one lives (and brews) at, the more benefit they could potentially have in investing in an oxygen setup. Since these systems cost the same for everyone, they'd actually be getting more bang for their buck, since when using pure oxygen at sea-level and presumably every livable altitude, you can actually dissolve TOO MUCH oxygen and start negatively affecting the beer (creating off-flavors and harming the yeast) WELL before the saturation point.
 
Heck, it's not nearly as expensive as I thought to get the equipment necessary to conduct experiments measuring total dissolved oxygen using every possible method/scenario/idea people could come up with.

Of course, I can think of many other things I'd rather put $300 towards right now. But I'll gladly accept donations :D
 
Not trying to rock the boat here, but has anyone read this?

http://hw.libsyn.com/p/6/8/b/68bd31b8e7d7cb4a/AerationMethods.pdf

It looks like rocking/shaking the carboy achieves faster and more complete oxygen saturation than room air through a stone. They didn't use pure O2 though the stone, but if you can achieve such high O2 saturation through rocking/shaking the carboy (>95% saturation), why bother with the O2 setup?

You guys have all provided anecdotal evidence that the beer is better with an O2 tank and stone, but where's the real evidence?
 
nfazz said:
Not trying to rock the boat here, but has anyone read this?

http://hw.libsyn.com/p/6/8/b/68bd31b8e7d7cb4a/AerationMethods.pdf

It looks like rocking/shaking the carboy achieves faster and more complete oxygen saturation than room air through a stone. They didn't use pure O2 though the stone, but if you can achieve such high O2 saturation through rocking/shaking the carboy (>95% saturation), why bother with the O2 setup?

You guys have all provided anecdotal evidence that the beer is better with an O2 tank and stone, but where's the real evidence?

Don't worry, you're not rocking the boat because there's nothing new about those findings, they happen to be rather obvious to anyone who's aerated with a pump for the recommended 30 minutes, and it has very little to do with the discussion at hand.

The paper deals strictly with sources using ambient air. 95% saturation using air isn't the same thing as 95% saturation using pure oxygen... in fact, it's far, far, less. You are NOT achieving nearly as high a concentration of dissolved oxygen.

As for the real evidence, at least a few sources have been pointed to. Try picking up a few books on the subject. The science is clear and rock-solid, and it's not being disputed. The only argument being made here against oxygenation that has even a remote chance of being legitimate is whether or not the benefits of pure oxygen are worth the $50 investment, especially if that money could be used towards other brewery improvements.
 
emjay said:
Don't worry, you're not rocking the boat because there's nothing new about those findings, they happen to be rather obvious to anyone who's aerated with a pump for the recommended 30 minutes, and it has very little to do with the discussion at hand.

The paper deals strictly with sources using ambient air. 95% saturation using air isn't the same thing as 95% saturation using pure oxygen... in fact, it's far, far, less. You are NOT achieving nearly as high a concentration of dissolved oxygen.

As for the real evidence, at least a few sources have been pointed to. Try picking up a few books on the subject. The science is clear and rock-solid, and it's not being disputed. The only argument being made here against oxygenation that has even a remote chance of being legitimate is whether or not the benefits of pure oxygen are worth the $50 investment, especially if that money could be used towards other brewery improvements.

I would love to see some of this science. I've read this entire thread and haven't seen anything concrete. Care to enlighten us all?
 
Also, I looked into the probe used in the experiment. It measures the oxygen saturation in solution, not the air saturation. This seems to be the opposite of what you are claiming. Do you really know what you're talking about? If so, please post links to the experimental evidence. If not, perhaps an experiment could be designed to settle the issue once and for all? I might be willing to invest the money in the testing equipment and various aeration methods. I'm just trying to see if anyone has actually done this, before I invest the money. If pure O2 aeration makes a difference, we can all go out and buy the kits. If not, we can save everyone some cash.

Any suggestions for experimental design?
 
nfazz, did you read through this entire post?

There is scientific data presented. You may not buy into it (I'm still on the fence) but it has already been posted.

My go to is Briggs. He seems to suggest that the optimal oxygen level is 10-15 ppm. And you can only achieve 8ppm using room air in any fashion.

I'm not saying 10-15 ppm is necessary in home brewing but its possible. Maybe if you pitch well or over pitch, oxygen is not as important.

But read all the posts in this thread...
 
nfazz said:
Also, I looked into the probe used in the experiment. It measures the oxygen saturation in solution, not the air saturation. This seems to be the opposite of what you are claiming. Do you really know what you're talking about? If so, please post links to the experimental evidence. If not, perhaps an experiment could be designed to settle the issue once and for all? I might be willing to invest the money in the testing equipment and various aeration methods. I'm just trying to see if anyone has actually done this, before I invest the money. If pure O2 aeration makes a difference, we can all go out and buy the kits. If not, we can save everyone some cash.

Any suggestions for experimental design?

Please read more carefully. The probe measures dissolved oxygen content - as in, concentration, not saturation. It cannot possibly measure "saturation". What they did was determine how much dissolved oxygen there was when it WAS 100% saturated with air, and used that to determine how oxygen levels in their tests compared to that. Had they calibrated that 100% set-point by saturating it with pure oxygen, that 95% would probably be closer to 20%.

Not to be unduly rude, but what good does referencing the hard science do when the failure to understand something even as simple as the difference between concentration and saturation makes you conclude pretty much the exact opposite of what something says?
 
I would love to see some of this science. I've read this entire thread and haven't seen anything concrete. Care to enlighten us all?

Lets slow down a minute here.

The fact that pure O2 is a really good/better method for aeration is not up for debate any longer. Why, because I'm the OP and I can say whatever I want. Can we agree it is a pretty good method? I think we can. You think shaking things around is just as good - okay. I know I fell into this trap for a few posts too, but maybe we just need to agree to disagree about the science here. Some people think humans rode around on dinosaurs. Who am I to say they didn't? After all, I haven't conducted any experiments to prove my point.

Now that that is out of the way.

First of all, no, I will not be conducting any sort of experiments for comparing a beer with O2 to a beer without O2. I've got a little hunch the beer with the O2 will be better (because I made 24 batches without, and 1 batch with, and the "with" wins - coincidence?). And since I only get to brew about once a month, I am not going to start undercutting my beer quality for the sake of "experiment" to appease some doubting Tom. Buy a kit and see for yourself, or don't. It is not effecting me.

Second, experimentation about dissolved oxygen concentrations has already been done. How can you possibly say you read the entire thread and didn't see anything concrete to that effect? As I am typing this, I am on my couch, and kind of shrugging in disbelief. Even I feel confused. Personally, I quoted and referenced experiments done by Wyeast and White Labs. I offered page numbers and links. But whatever, if that is not enough for you - fine. It is not effecting me.

Finally, I do not have any desire to "convince" anyone who was not already thinking seriously about making this process tweak. The truth is, if you don't want to start doing it, I just don't care. I will never have to drink your beer, so if you are happy with it, then I am happy you are happy. Just brew, shake that carboy up really well, and enjoy. Okay? It is not effecting me.

So in summary, if anyone has been on the fence, and wants to take my "anecdotal" findings at face value - great. I have a feeling you will be happy with your "anecdotally" improved results. For those that responded to my post about finding great improvements with O2 by saying "I disagree!"; that's okay too.

I have no agenda, and I do not want to become the "O2 guy", but for anyone already on the fence, don't let "I disagree!" keep you from making better beer. "I disagree" can stick to what has worked for them for so long now. They obviously know what they are doing, and their beer has no room for improvement. It was ridiculous for me to suggest such a thing.

In fact, I could have been wrong from the start. After all, I have nothing to offer but some anecdotal evidence of one great batch of beer. It was probably dumb luck. And maybe my taste buds aren't even that good. I still haven't drank my beer back to back with some poorly handled Guinness; so how can I compare it? You're right, this whole thread was probably just a waste of everyone's time. So I apologize to anyone who has contributed.

Now excuse me, I have a stout to go choke down.

Joe
 
Disgusting.

stout.jpg
 
jfowler1 said:
Lets slow down a minute here.

The fact that pure O2 is a really good/better method for aeration is not up for debate any longer. Why, because I'm the OP and I can say whatever I want. Can we agree it is a pretty good method? I think we can. You think shaking things around is just as good - okay. I know I fell into this trap for a few posts too, but maybe we just need to agree to disagree about the science here. Some people think humans rode around on dinosaurs. Who am I to say they didn't? After all, I haven't conducted any experiments to prove my point.

Now that that is out of the way.

First of all, no, I will not be conducting any sort of experiments for comparing a beer with O2 to a beer without O2. I've got a little hunch the beer with the O2 will be better (because I made 24 batches without, and 1 batch with, and the "with" wins - coincidence?). And since I only get to brew about once a month, I am not going to start undercutting my beer quality for the sake of "experiment" to appease some doubting Tom. Buy a kit and see for yourself, or don't. It is not effecting me.

Second, experimentation about dissolved oxygen concentrations has already been done. How can you possibly say you read the entire thread and didn't see anything concrete to that effect? As I am typing this, I am on my couch, and kind of shrugging in disbelief. Even I feel confused. Personally, I quoted and referenced experiments done by Wyeast and White Labs. I offered page numbers and links. But whatever, if that is not enough for you - fine. It is not effecting me.

Well I guess I didn't realize that the opinion of the original poster was gospel. You're kind of proving my point here. All you guys have to support the use of O2 aeration is anecdotal evidence. You cite a wyeast page that says that you can achieve higher concentrations of O2 with a tank, and maybe that's true but where's the proof? It's a nice couple of paragraphs on a website with no experimental evidence to back it up. Even if you can achieve >10 ppm of dissolved O2 (and I think you can), you have a supersaturated solution (at least at atmospheric pressure), so how long will those concentrations be maintained?

No one here seems to have done any experiments. I'm talking about the kind of controlled experiment with serial O2 measurements using multiple methods of wort aeration on a split batch of wort. I purchased most of the necessary equipment to do this experiment today and am planning to do this experiment in the next few weeks. I'll probably start out with water much like the article I referenced. I'll do one control with no aeration, one with swishing/shaking in a plastic bucket, one with wort wizard style aeration (what I currently use), one with room air/aquarium pump, and one with an O2 tank. Then we'll continue to measure the O2 concentration over time in order to see how much of the O2 comes out of solution and how quickly.

Then, I plan to do the same thing with a split batch of wort, followed by blind taste testing.

I don't think is kind of experiment has been done, but if it has please let me know.
 
Well.....you convinced me, I'm on board with oxygen. Not just because of the purty glass of stout (although it's very nice), and not because of the science (although I understand it well enough, and think it's all sound). I'm going to do it because I entered this pastime at the tender age of 63, and was just never up to the whole "shake, baby, shake" technique. So- for three years, through extract and now AG, I ærate by pouring back & forth from the boil kettle to the fermentation bucket several times, and let it go at that. But even "that" is enough exertion that I guess I've been in the market for something else. I've read about both the oxygen and regular air processes before, but this thread convinced me that the O2 setup is the way to go. Just ordered the kit from Williams, need to remember to stop by Lowe's or Menards and pick up the oxygen cylinder.

What will I do when I get this setup? Oh, pretty much the same as "jfowler1." I'll use the oxygen on the wort, taste the beer and draw my own conclusions. There's not that much scientist in me (I know one, and science is a calling not for everyone- believe me) to do any split-batch comparisons. I'll leave that to the more OCD among our brethren.
 
emjay said:
Please read more carefully. The probe measures dissolved oxygen content - as in, concentration, not saturation. It cannot possibly measure "saturation". What they did was determine how much dissolved oxygen there was when it WAS 100% saturated with air, and used that to determine how oxygen levels in their tests compared to that. Had they calibrated that 100% set-point by saturating it with pure oxygen, that 95% would probably be closer to 20%.

Not to be unduly rude, but what good does referencing the hard science do when the failure to understand something even as simple as the difference between concentration and saturation makes you conclude pretty much the exact opposite of what something says?

Maybe you need to look again. I don't own this probe, but most of the probes measure ppm of O2 in solution which can then easily be converted to percent saturation if you know the temperature and atmospheric pressure. If you can achieve say 8 ppm O2 in solution using room air or pure O2, the oxygen concentration is the SAME in both solutions. The saturation is just another way of expressing the oxygen concentration. Hope this helps.
 
No one here seems to have done any experiments.

Unless there is a research grant in it for me, I am more interested in making and drinking beer than in designing and performing a series of experiments to test this hypothesis. Honestly just smacks of effort.
 
No one here seems to have done any experiments. I'm talking about the kind of controlled experiment with serial O2 measurements using multiple methods of wort aeration on a split batch of wort.

White Labs did just this kind of experiment. Yes, it was small scale, but it's the kind of thing you've been asking about. The results, as stated earlier in the thread, can be found in the "Yeast" book by Chris White.
 
Slurm said:
Unless there is a research grant in it for me, I am more interested in making and drinking beer than in designing and performing a series of experiments to test this hypothesis. Honestly just smacks of effort.

I can totally identify with you here. I'd rather not spend the time, money, and effort either. However, you have to acknowledge without these types of experiments, we'd still be in the dark ages.
 
GuldTuborg said:
White Labs did just this kind of experiment. Yes, it was small scale, but it's the kind of thing you've been asking about. The results, as stated earlier in the thread, can be found in the "Yeast" book by Chris White.

Thanks for the info. I don't own the book, so I have to take your word for it. Still, nothing that anyone has posted here has been very convincing.
 
I have to say I'm surprised that this entire thread was started on the basis of the taste of 1 batch of beer.

But it doesn't matter I suppose.

I don't think its debatable that more oxygen gets into the wort with oxygen than it does with room air. And there are sources that say that dissolved oxygen more than that achievable with room air is beneficial to commercial breweries.

And there are many homebrewers who have anecdotal evidence that pure oxygen works for homebrewing. In the case of the OP, his batch turned out better than any before. This result clearly needs to be repeated by the OP to hold any merit but there seem to be many who agree with him.

I am on the fence but I will probably use O2 at some point. I'm not expecting any bigger change than other tweaks that I've made. But who knows?
 
Thanks for the info. I don't own the book, so I have to take your word for it. Still, nothing that anyone has posted here has been very convincing.

I don't have the book in front of me, but I do remember some of the details. They (the authors and the people at White Labs) seemed to do a thorough job of controlling extraneous variables, so I'm fairly well convinced their results should hold up to larger trials. To what degree, though, is always the question.

There were two experiments I remember off the top of my head. One was with a low gravity wort, around 1.050 maybe, split with (rough) oxygenation levels of 2, 8, 10, and 15ppm. They all finished with the same FG, but the 10 and 15ppm worts achieved that gravity a full 48 hours faster than the 2ppm, and nearly as much faster than the 8ppm. Then they used a higher gravity wort, maybe 1.086 I'm wanting to say. They used the same oxygenation levels and compared gravity over time. The 10 and 15ppm worts finished a full 4 points lower than the other two, and did so faster.

I think what they were able to show is the yeast health and performance will increase with oxygenation levels at 10ppm and above. They did state each strain will be different in its oxygen requirements, and that some need 15ppm or more to achieve the same results. I would guess low oxygen requirement strains would need less, but they did not state what levels are typically suitable. They did not look at any other effects (ester, phenol, diacetyl, higher alcohol levels, etc.) in the finished product, nor did they evaluate for taste differences. Those would have been expensive and extremely subjective, respectively.

How well your yeast perform over time may or may not be much of a concern for you. Attenuation can be controlled by other means, though perhaps not with the same results. Just because your beer stops at a certain point on your scale doesn't mean all other variables (types of sugar left over, other compounds put off and metabolized, or not, etc.) will remain the same. I think they made a good case that yeast perform differently with differing levels of oxygenation. Taste is ultimately the true test, so the only way to figure out if adding pure O2 makes a difference for you is to try it.
 
Well I guess I didn't realize that the opinion of the original poster was gospel. You're kind of proving my point here. All you guys have to support the use of O2 aeration is anecdotal evidence.

No, you are proving my point here.

My word does not have to be gospel. I just ask that your honor my opinion. Those are two different things. If I said, "I just pee'd in my beer, and it was better than ever before!" I think you would have much stronger stance to take (and you would have less people arguing against you). But no, I said, "I finally followed a fundamental piece of advice and instruction from Jamil, White Labs, and Wyeast and my beer was better than ever before!" Honestly, you kind of sound like a crazy person telling me I am out of line or unjustified with my findings. Questioning what you are told is great, but at some point, you have to stop arguing about it and try things out yourself. For now, you are just arguing about it. You claim my finding are "anecdotal", but at least they are my findings. You are just arguing an unfounded opinion. Who is peddling gospel there? My "anecdotal evidence" is that I actually followed an instruction that I never followed before, and by my analysis, the result improved as the instructions said it would. Is that really something worth questioning? I mean, there is crazy garbage all over this board that you would be better served arguing about.

What are you trying to argue?

Do yeast need oxygen? Did I supply it as instructed? Did the yeast seem to make a better beer? The answers are all very simple - yes. I mean, I brewed 24 lesser batches "without". That's why I decided to post "anecdotal evidence" for the first batch I brewed "with". To me, it was good enough. Ever hear the phrase, "The proof is in the pudding?"

Can we throw out all the garbage about evidence? I home brew, and if I am going to spend 6 hours making a batch of beer, I want it to be the best beer I can make. It's a hobby - I am not looking to publish my findings, I just want to brew and drink a beer, and if I had to choose between it tasting good or bad, I choose good. I think there are a lot of brewers who are just as happy to hear that someone found a way to improve beer quality, and wouldn't demand a panel of experts to back up a finding. However, if literature and experts didn't already exist to explain the potential benefits of appropriate O2 levels in beer, I would have never tried it. But the literature exists. To that effect, I already have a panel of experts that can back up my findings. I am not inventing anything new here. I changed my process as suggested, and the beer was better than ever before. For my next trick, I'll bend spoons with my mind. Why do I need to set up a triple blind experiment to say that without argument? I am just supporting advice that was already given by industry experts. If you can't find that advice documented earlier in this thread, I suggest checking you prescription.

Listen, experiment until you heart is content. I have a funny feeling that after all the time and dollars, your finding may just happen to fall in line with what White Labs, Wyeast, (and I) found.

Joe
 
Maybe you need to look again. I don't own this probe, but most of the probes measure ppm of O2 in solution which can then easily be converted to percent saturation if you know the temperature and atmospheric pressure. If you can achieve say 8 ppm O2 in solution using room air or pure O2, the oxygen concentration is the SAME in both solutions. The saturation is just another way of expressing the oxygen concentration. Hope this helps.

Yes, the probe measures ppm. ppm = parts PER million (denoting concentration.)

Can you easily convert it to percent saturation if you know the temperature and atmospheric pressure? Kind of... but gases aren't all equally soluble, and so according to Henry's Law, you also need to know "Henry's Constant" for the particular gas solute in the particular solvent you're working with (in this case, oxygen in water), which is a bit of a misleading name since it obviously changes depending on the gas and liquid. Thing is though, the only way to find Henry's Constant (other than looking it up, in which case it's really just somebody else who did it for you) is to empirically find it by determining the concentration of the dissolved gas when it's saturated at a given temperature. And they just set that particular concentration of dissolved oxygen to be 100% in order to compare their experimental results in some meaningful way.

The thing is, when you dissolve air, you are dissolving ALL the gases that are in air, not just oxygen. The wort doesn't magically decide to hang on to the oxygen alone, just because it's good for it - do you honestly think other gases are NOT being dissolved? Because if not, that must mean you're instead working on the assumption that a solvent has the capacity for an INFINITE amount of solute, as long as you change the particular solute to a different one once it's saturated - ie, after reaching the saturation point of oxygen, you can then saturate the wort with nitrogen, and then CO2, argon, helium, etc, without causing any of the previous gases to come out of solution - and if that's what you actually think, then you might as well just stop reading this right now; that level of ignorance is incurable.

No, the fact is, a solvent only has a given amount of room. For instance, let's say you're working with a wort temperature and pressure where the saturation point for oxygen alone is 20ppm, and the saturation point of nitrogen is 48ppm (roughly close to accurate), and it's just been boiled so there are absolutely no gases dissolved yet. That doesn't mean you can dissolve 20ppm of oxygen AND 48ppm of nitrogen at the same time. You'd only be able to dissolve the entire 20ppm of oxygen if there is NO nitrogen whatsoever (which I'm sure everyone is well aware is not even close to the reality of ambient air), just like you'd only be able to dissolve the 48ppm of nitrogen if you decided not to include any oxygen. Or you could do a 50-50 mix (10ppm oxygen, 24ppm nitrogen), a 75-25 mix (15ppm oxygen, 12ppm nitrogen), a 25-75 mix (5ppm oxygen, 36ppm nitrogen), or any other combination imaginable.

So, tying back in to the first paragraph as to what gas(es) they used to determine 100% saturation, they did it using AIR, and the saturation point of AIR is where dissolving any more AIR is absolutely impossible. At that point where water becomes saturated with air, the concentration of oxygen is still measurable and should be around 8ppm at fermentation temps. There will also be an unknown amount of nitrogen, CO2, and other atmospheric gases, since they were neither measured nor calculated. But to suggest that these other gases aren't there simply because they weren't measured (since the particular concentrations don't matter for this experiment) is absolutely silly.

However, since these other gases ARE there, taking up a huge proportion of the total dissolved gases that this particular solvent can accommodate, the oxygen is limited to a concentration much lower than it could attain if the other gases were never introduced into the water in the first place - in fact, in typical circumstances it should only be roughly 20.946% - a mere one-fifth - of the concentration it would be present in if the other gases weren't taking up their fair share (I say "roughly" because the proportion would be slightly changed by the fact that CO2 isn't just a solute but also somewhat reacts with water to form carbonic acid). And so the question becomes, how do you kick all the other gas molecules out, giving oxygen the space to increase in concentration nearly 5-fold? The simple answer, of course, is just to not introduce them in the first place, by using pure oxygen as the solute instead of that mixture of gases we call air.

Need a source for all that? There's actually very little to even source, it's basically a couple of concepts distilled as much as (and in every way) possible, so that one would have to be a troll to keep insisting otherwise, but I suggest you try a high school science/chemistry textbook. I'm not even kidding, I know it's there because I checked - I kept a lot of my old science textbooks since I like hanging on to knowledge and information. I doubt you're going to find much of this (proving, or even arguing against it) in any academic papers because that particular audience is pretty much expected to know such fundamental stuff, not to mention that stuff such as the fact that a solution can contain more of a specific solute when it is the only solute (ie pure oxygen) as opposed to one of many competing solutes (ie air) is pretty much common sense to anyone with even the slightest idea of how solutions work.

Now admittedly, the author doesn't say either way whether the 100% saturation comparator was using the concentration of oxygen in water 100% saturated with air, or 100% saturated with oxygen. But for the reasons stated above - even ignoring the fact that they experimented strictly with methods attempting to saturate the water with air, and not pure O2 - it is just totally impossible for the O2 in water that is mixed with AIR (containing just 21% oxygen) to reach a concentration equal to 95% of the concentration of the oxygen in water saturated entirely with pure O2. That would actually imply that the other 79% of the gas content of air is somehow diminished to a maximum of 9.1% of total dissolved gases (since nitrogen is about twice as soluble), and that's absolutely absurd. In fact, it even goes on to talk about the risk of yeast toxicity by over-oxygenating when using pure O2, and you'd have to be bizarrely bull-headed to think that when they refer to over-oxygenation, they must be talking about that small margin between the 95% they achieved, and the limit of 100%.

However, if you decide to stick to your nonsensical version of chemistry, that's fine with me. I was far more concerned about the people who might be influenced by your posts to not pursue the quality that they otherwise might have. But I think I've posted more than enough to ensure that the vast majority of open-minded people who might read this thread will know that your claims are bunk, and that they don't even jibe whatsoever with the link you posted thinking it supported those claims. I can't believe I just wasted time writing all this though, because the vast increase in O2 concentrations possible when using pure O2 instead of air is not even close to being a typical point of contention, and because the science behind it is so elementary, it never even has been.
 
Wow, it's obvious that I'm wasting my time here. Google parts per million. It's pretty simple, if you have 8 ppm of a given solute, there are 8 parts per million OF THAT SOLUTE in solution. It doesn't matter what the concentration of the other solutes is. The probe measures the concentration of OXYGEN. PERIOD. Not the concentration of CO2 or nitrogen or whatever you think its measuring. If I can get 8 ppm oxygen in solution by whatever method, it's the same concentration as 8 ppm with another method! What part of this do you not understand? It's this kind of ignorance that drives people away who are legitimately trying to answer a question.

My point here is that I think the effect of O2 aeration on homebrew is not well known. It looks like some decent experiments have been done, but I think the homebrew community would benefit from further experimentation. Someone with time, skills, and resources needs to do an experiment and the results of that experiment will advance the entire community. I would LOVE for O2 aeration to make my beer better. But I'm not going to just blindly do it without knowing the effects. Most of you don't care, and that's fine. Others (the minority, most likely) are ignorant or misinformed. Probably many are in the same boat as me and would like to see someone do the experiment. I am going to go ahead with these experiments on my own and I don't think I'll be sharing the results on this forum, although I do plan to share them. A real community would encourage this kind of contribution, not attack the person attempting to answer a question. I'm not going to come on here and brag about my credentials, but I have more degrees and have done more research than the rest of the people on this board, I assure you. I didn't come here to be insulted by a bunch of pompous asses, I came here to see what has already been done, and it looks like White Labs has done some very good work on the subject. I appreciate GuldTuborg's post in particular. I plan to pick up the yeast book to learn more about their experiments, but I don't think the issue has been laid to rest.

Have fun everyone and good luck!
 
nfazz said:
Wow, it's obvious that I'm wasting my time here. Google parts per million. It's pretty simple, if you have 8 ppm of a given solute, there are 8 parts per million OF THAT SOLUTE in solution. It doesn't matter what the concentration of the other solutes is. The probe measures the concentration of OXYGEN. PERIOD. Not the concentration of CO2 or nitrogen or whatever you think its measuring. If I can get 8 ppm oxygen in solution by whatever method, it's the same concentration as 8 ppm with another method! What part of this do you not understand?

I read this far, and decided it wasn't even worth going further. Why? Because you're actually technically right, yet totally irrelevant and apparently forget your previous claims. Namely, why bother with O2 when shaking gets you 95% of the way there. I pointed out that the 95% was by a different benchmark, and that in terms of actual dissolved O2, it's less than 20% than a pure O2 system is capable. You disagree with some sort of nonsense, and so my last post simply demonstrated how this was true. And then you respond with... whatever the hell this is supposed to be. Backtracking? Sidetracking? You're certainly not defending your initial position!

Bottom line, if you can achieve 8ppm at the 95% saturation mentioned in that paper, you should be able to get around 40ppm with an oxygen system... if at any point you understood that, you were and are being disingenuous. And if you still don't get it, then you're just hopeless...

Goodnight
 
nfazz,

Thanks for your input.

Honestly, I think there may be a bit of miscommunication here. Maybe we need to take another step back.

I started the thread because I changed one variable (the best a homebrewer can do to change 1 variable) in my brewday and saw a big improvement. I referred to it as a Eureka! moment. I asked if anyone else had such an experience. For me, it was oxygen. Some agreed. Other people mentioned things like decoction mashing. Cool. A Eureka! moment is just an awakening - kind of an eye opening step that you couldn't believe you were not taking earlier. Literally; "I found it!" ("it" being a key to a better beer).

Now, as discussions go, the thread evolved into a talk about improvements that others also saw when they used O2 for the first time. Naturally, someone will chime into that talk and say, "well I used an air pump and it works great", or "I have been happy to splash things around like Charlie Papazian taught me!" And those contributions are fine too. It encourages good debate.

But then someone just completely disagrees with the tone and -hit hits the fan.

That is kind of where you came in. You were not the first one to say "I disagree!", you just kind of did it in a way a little more offensive than anyone else. Can't put my finger on it....

When I reread your posts, I feel kind of bad. I mean, you have a fine idea; you want to run an experiment. I am all for it. I think that your findings, whatever they turn out to be, will be very useful to everyone.

On the other hand, personally, I think it is kind of bad taste to join a thread, basically tell the OP he was unjustified in standing behind his "anecdotal" analysis, and then go on to call all the members a bunch of asses. If you want to do some experiments, fine. But by arguing, and repeatedly writing off my statements as [fruitless] "anecdotes", you are falling somewhere between calling me a liar and calling me an idiot. I am neither. You say you felt insulted - well, so did I. And a little advice; you can't say you are not going to "come here and brag about credentials", and in the same sentence, start bragging about your credentials (kind of hurts your point).

So lets step in the way back machine.

jfowler1 - I had great results with oxygen!
nfazz - Great to hear Joe. It looks like lots of other people had great success with that step too! I have heard lots of options for aeration, and I am going to do an experiment with different methods and share my findings with you guys!
HBT community - Thanks nfazz! That is going to be really helpful!

Isn't that nicer.

So if you want to go from there and try again, awesome. If you want to experiment and take your findings elsewhere, that is fine too.

Joe
 
You cite a wyeast page that says that you can achieve higher concentrations of O2 with a tank, and maybe that's true but where's the proof? It's a nice couple of paragraphs on a website with no experimental evidence to back it up.

The proof is in the book and the experiments that were presented in it. We're not trying to trick you. It's like $12 on Amazon. I'm not quoting pages of a book just to prove to you that we're not fabricating these experiments.

No one here seems to have done any experiments. I'm talking about the kind of controlled experiment with serial O2 measurements using multiple methods of wort aeration on a split batch of wort. .

Do it yourself if you want it done. It's been presented in a book that you apparently think is made up...I trust the research.
 
While this thread has some good advice and discussion in it, it also seems to have some miscommunication. I hope we can all continue to have a spirited discussion without resorting to name calling.

I hope it's been made obvious that a greater O2 concentration can be had in wort by using pure oxygen and a stone than by any kind of method that uses air. The question becomes, of course, how much at what times during fermentation (thanks to Saccharomyces for raising the issue of time) has what effect(s)? Some people have observed some changes in their beer quality, and it's those kinds of experiences that are worth sharing. Keep coming with them, but know that questions will be raised regarding other possible causes, etc., and that is a healthy part of looking critically at the matter (so long as it's done in a civil manner). If anyone is willing to do some brewing with special attention to holding other variables constant, while changing oxygenation levels, and report that back, I think we would all benefit from that kind of work.

I hope I haven't stated anything contentious in the above paragraph. At any rate, it all seems reasonable enough to me. Maybe we can use it as a staring point to beginning this discussion anew?
 
GuldTuborg said:
While this thread has some good advice and discussion in it, it also seems to have some miscommunication. I hope we can all continue to have a spirited discussion without resorting to name calling.

I hope it's been made obvious that a greater O2 concentration can be had in wort by using pure oxygen and a stone than by any kind of method that uses air. The question becomes, of course, how much at what times during fermentation (thanks to Saccharomyces for raising the issue of time) has what effect(s)? Some people have observed some changes in their beer quality, and it's those kinds of experiences that are worth sharing. Keep coming with them, but know that questions will be raised regarding other possible causes, etc., and that is a healthy part of looking critically at the matter (so long as it's done in a civil manner). If anyone is willing to do some brewing with special attention to holding other variables constant, while changing oxygenation levels, and report that back, I think we would all benefit from that kind of work.

I hope I haven't stated anything contentious in the above paragraph. At any rate, it all seems reasonable enough to me. Maybe we can use it as a staring point to beginning this discussion anew?

Chris White explains that the only time you should be oxygenating is before pitching, except in the case of extremely high-gravity beers. In these particular exceptions, I believe he states that another dose of oxygen may be given 12-18 hours after pitching, though I admittedly don't recall his precise reason(s) why. I should be able to check my copy of Yeast tomorrow and both confirm and elaborate on this particular guideline.
 
nfazz said:
I'm not going to come on here and brag about my credentials, but I have more degrees and have done more research than the rest of the people on this board, I assure you.

Without making any comments on the validity of anyone's arguments here... This is possibly the most contradictory single sentence I've read here. :D
 
Chris White explains that the only time you should be oxygenating is before pitching, except in the case of extremely high-gravity beers. In these particular exceptions, I believe he states that another dose of oxygen may be given 12-18 hours after pitching, though I admittedly don't recall his precise reason(s) why. I should be able to check my copy of Yeast tomorrow

Right. In particularly big beer, yeast seem to benefit from another dose of oxygen after they have used what was originally in the wort during reproduction. That is, you're giving them more of what they need, when they need it, instead of (for example) trying to put it all in in one massive dose of 30ppm or whatever at the beginning. At any rate, that's from my recollection of the book. I'll have to reread that section to get all of the details again, but I think that's the gist of it.
 
Without making any comments on the validity of anyone's arguments here... This is possibly the most contradictory single sentence I've read here. :D

Wait you mean to say he registered only to troll and bring about arguments? Say it isn't so. I love how every time someone in this forum has a disagreement with someone else's experiment they demand a 2nd experiment to prove it's not a fluke but refuse to do it themselves. Instead we get a 20051512 page secondary vs primary chest thumping thread about who can primary for 3 months without needing the carboy/bucket back.
 
I might have fed the troll with a couple novels, but I'm pretty sure I had already buried in there somewhere a slight accusation of such, not only because (s)he had ONLY ever posted in this thread, but also because I simply had a hard time believing somebody could be so vapid, resistant to logic, and unable to follow even THEIR OWN argument (let alone other people's), and yet somehow still manage to use a computer, write in a linguistically adequate fashion - even if not at all a logically adequate one, and somehow actually even remember to breathe without constantly being reminded to do so (which YOU now suddenly find yourself oddly unable to manage...) Breathe in... Breathe out.
 
I might have fed the troll with a couple novels, but I'm pretty sure I had already buried in there somewhere a slight accusation of such, not only because (s)he had ONLY ever posted in this thread, but also because I simply had a hard time believing somebody so vapid, resistant to logic, and unable to even follow THEIR OWN argument (let alone other people's), and yet somehow still manage to use a computer, write in a linguistically adequate fashion - even if not at all a logically adequate one, and somehow actually even remember to breathe without constantly being reminded to do so (which YOU now suddenly find yourself oddly unable to manage...) Breathe in... Breathe out.

I should pull up some older posts from Cookiemonster. You couldn't tell if they where trolling or if it was a French Canadian thing at first.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/ferment-temps-facts-vs-myths-please-172206/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/imported-english-ale-vs-local-ale-english-blows-away-local-166435/

Sad thing is he started out normal and went troll.
 
Without making any comments on the validity of anyone's arguments here... This is possibly the most contradictory single sentence I've read here. :D

That is hilarious.

But even beyond the contradiction... he has to be correct... No one on this board is a scientist. And no one on this board is over the age of 31 (as he claims to be). So he must have more scientific experience than everyone here.
 
ayoungrad said:
That is hilarious.

But even beyond the contradiction... he has to be correct... No one on this board is a scientist. And no one on this board is over the age of 31 (as he claims to be). So he must have more scientific experience than everyone here.

How can you be so sure?

I'm studying neuroscience on a full scholarship, so I do, in fact, have a solid background in chemistry. I guess you could say I'm "not quite there", but even if somebody has astonishing credentials, it's a really stupid thing to dick size and argue about over the Internet, because anybody can make up just about anything. And I'm sure that anybody with the brains to actually back up their creds realizes that they'll just end up looking foolish even attempting it.

But although you might be able to say anything you want about how intelligent and learned you may or may not be, backing it up is a whole other matter - and believe me, this guy doesn't even come close to doing so. He can't even keep track of his own argument, let alone intelligently assert it, so even if he is telling the truth (I'm not going to dispute it or even speculate, as I've met more than a few degree-laden half-wits), it's obviously not doing him any good anyway.
 
How can you be so sure?

I'm studying neuroscience on a full scholarship, so I do, in fact, have a solid background in chemistry. I guess you could say I'm "not quite there", but even if somebody has astonishing credentials, it's a really stupid thing to dick size and argue about over the Internet, because anybody can make up just about anything. And I'm sure that anybody with the brains to actually back up their creds realizes that they'll just end up looking foolish even attempting it.

But although you might be able to say anything you want about how intelligent and learned you may or may not be, backing it up is a whole other matter - and believe me, this guy doesn't even come close to doing so. He can't even keep track of his own argument, let alone intelligently assert it, so even if he is telling the truth (I'm not going to dispute it or even speculate, as I've met more than a few degree-laden half-wits), it's obviously not doing him any good anyway.

Ummmmmm... I hope you took my comment as sarcastically as it was intended...
 
Wow, what a thread. I appreciate all of you that have participated. As a result, my O2 system from Williams will be arriving tomorrow. Needless to say, I'll be using it for my next brew and, just maybe, I'll post some anecdotal findings on this thread.:D

You guys are awesome, thanks again for posting.
 
I made the same recipe (oatmeal stout) with and without oxygen.

Day and night result.

Took less time to ferment, reached FG and much better taste. Drier and more grain flavor coming through.
 
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